Good morning!<p>For those not up to speed, you can check out some of my recent postings. There's too much happening lately to summarize here!<p>Anyhow, as I noted elsewhere, WW actually told me she was going to see OM last night, and did come home rather late (11:30). Not sure if she was thinking this was somehow going to make me feel better, her being honest and all - I guess it should on some level, eh?<p>Anyhow, this morning, I decide to do some distancing - better than LB'ing, I suppose! We speak very little (which is definitely out of the norm). Just before I go, she says, "I know now probably isn't the best time, but can I talk to you a bit?" Okay. "I realize a lot of this has been about me, but what about you? What do you want? I mean, do you want this marriage?" Hmm... normally an opening to try some constructive discussion, but at that moment, I decided to stall. Let her know that I'd like to talk, but was in a hurry. So now I have some time to think about a response.<p>Then this morning, I get an e-mail from her - rather long, rather unusual. Here's some of it...<p>"Hi. I know that this is out of the ordinary, but I cannot
concentrate as my mind is consumed by thoughts. Partly about what I
asked you this morning. I'm wondering how you are. What you want.
We have not talked about this lately given how "WW-centric" I've
been. What do you need?"<p>...<p>"I fear that you may never really be able to fully expose the depth of
your spirituality to me. One reason for this is your nature. You
are a very private person. The second is that you may never be able
to trust me again, given how I have hurt you. I pray that you will
be able to share it with someone, even if it is not me. To be open
to another person. I guess you need to explore this part of
yourself, and be comfortable with it, before you share it with
someone else. And you will need to trust that person. Just please
promise me. Don't forget about who you are. <p>I know that I forgot about who you are. And it breaks my heart."<p>So... to me anyway, this sounds a lot like the exchange Venus had with her H not too long ago - kind of like, "hey, I've had this epiphany that I'm okay, and the situation is okay." (even though it's messed up beyond belief). It speaks nothing about ACTION to fix anything.<p>My feeling is this... To continue on my path of "popping the cork". This means shifting from a Plan A where I'm willing to go out of my way to meet needs and not LB, to being more Dobsonesque, still being loving, but much tougher. I haven't drawn my boundaries out very clearly, to date. I have little fear to do so now. I have little fear to show her that she can LOSE.<p>My gut reaction is to respond to her message along the lines of...<p>"Thank you for your concern."
"I'm the same person you fell in love with and willfully married years ago."
"I have changed a great deal, thanks for recognizing that."
"From my perspective, my nature is not just about one thing. To cast me as being 'private' doesn't do justice to my true breadth and depth."
"I'm certainly not afraid of anything, being the 'sweet J.R.' you have spoken of, and I certainly don't need to be educated on how to behave with others - I'm a valuable, self-aware person."
"I have come to realize that yes, I do have so very much to share, and I will do so."<p>Not sure on her motivations right now. Can only speculate. I know that's dumb to do, but why not indulge me [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It is possible the dynamic between her and OM is changing with my little encounter. Maybe he is getting cold feet, as was one possibility floated out to me. Might be she's trying to hang on to a dying A. Maybe they're LB'ing or going to be LB'ing over the fact that reality sucks. Or maybe they're trying to make a stronger commitment to each other - trying to believe "it's all good".<p>It is possible as the time approaches for her to go, and with all of this "reality" being dumped on her, she's questioning herself, and is possibly testing the waters of where I'm at. Might be because she'd seriously think about working at it, or maybe just to know where her "comfort zone" is at, in controling me (she definitely wants to believe she does, from all I see).<p>It is possible she's as socked in as ever and is really just looking for one more chance for me to say, "hey I don't love you, go ahead and $@&* around as much as you want".

Have you thought of simply saying nothing. You can create suspense on her part by simply saying that this is not something that you really want to discuss with her at this time. The not knowing often creates pressure and affairs don't handle pressure well.<p>What have you to gain by talking about this?<p>If you do talk, she may feel that she has nothing to lose. If you avoid the talk, it may create suspense and she will be left off-balance when it comes to you. Have you been quick to have these OR discussions in the past? If so, this is a 180 change for you.

I JUST deleted several messages to my H that sounded somewhat similiar to that. In my situation it was me trying to open the door to discussion. JR, if you send the responses you wrote here...you are shutting the door again...because in my opinion those responses would only validate what she wrote. You are being closed and distant. She's REACHING OUT...what do YOU want...she's admitting being closed to looking at that previously.<p>TELL HER THE DAMN TRUTH....skip the distance and lay it out on the line. Tell her you won't continue to be part of a triangle and that it's frustrating to see that she does SEE VALUE in you, yet won't do a damn thing to change things. Tell her you LOVE her, that you WANT to remain married and that you WANT to take your marriage to a new level WITH HER...but that you can't do anything about that on your own. SHOW HER that you have depth. SHOW HER that you can open up.<p>In my case when I wrote several similiar letters to my H...he didn't get it at all...he took it much like you did...that I was "informing" him how to become a better person etc... I wasn't...I was reaching out and hoping to hear there was still a chance. At that point nothing the OM could say or do made any difference...because I was focusing on my H, and US. YOU are still focusing on THEM...the OM may have little to do with her reaching out to you. She's working on defogging...don't trigger her to run away by being subtle and distant.<p>You reach out, open up, and still draw boundries. She can't expect you to be totally open and free with yourself in the position she's got you in currently.<p>I hope this helps at all....and I hope it's valid advice. Seems to me like there is a ball in your court...<p>As always...good luck!

J.R.,<p>I don't have a clue what "could" be going on with her and OM. But as far as her email ... well, here's what I think.<p>I think she is testing the waters, that she is querying you for the "what if's", and depending on your answer, she may use it "against" or "for" the marriage or separating, relative to her agenda at the moment.<p>I do believe that she fears the resentment (trust) she may have to live with if she stays and trys to rebuild. Most WS really wince at the idea of living and facing the resentment of a BS day-in and day-out. <p>I also read from her email that she and OM probably have what they perceive as this "spiritual" connection, perhaps a need of hers, or perhaps part of their fantasy. I have a feeling that OM has dissapointed her in this area. And she wants to know if you'll be able to open up to her in a deeper sense, more than what you have in the previous years *possibly*. <p>The part where she brings in your opening up to "someone" if not her, well to me that's her way of making sure she hasn't committed anything to you by this email, that she doesn't get your hopes up. <p>The part about what "you need to do" ... ughhhhh, I got the same thing from my H. He made sure to tell me that he didn't want me to be with anyone that would dominate me and stiffle me. It was FOG talk and it was offensive to me. But I let it go, as should you.<p>I could be all wet with my assessment of your W's email. And even if I'm right-on the money, remember J.R., things with the WS's change in a heart beat. <p>What I found the most interesting is how your W's email is somewhat in the abstract, VERY much like my H's emails. I could never really nail anything down from when he wrote me. A bit frustrating.<p>Don't know if I've helped. <p>Jo<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

P.S. In regards to your proposed response. I agree 100% with H4F. Don't send it. Be up-front with what you've BEEN telling her, don't participate in her FOG drival. <p>Boundaries!<p>Jo

Res,<p>I think that's a VERY good assessment and sounds very much like where my head would have been at.<p>There is still plenty of fog and noncommittment there...yes...and I don't think there is a "perfect" response one can give...yet... I still think there's a good chance she's trying to MAKE SURE she has all the questions accuratly answered before she makes a big decision. In retrospect it's IMPOSSIBLE to do...but that's exactly how I was too.<p>Definatly control issues still going there too, I agree JR...I HAD THEM TOO! My H was also very offended with the "helpful tips" I provided...but it was never intended to be that way.<p>I still say answer with love. If you answer with detachment, be sure and CLARIFY WHY! Let her know that you are unsure of why this is an issue now...that you feel manipulated and that anything you say may wind up being used against you. BUT THEN...open up anyway. If you don't you just feed the cycle...she winds up angry and hurt which pushes you further away, she feels validated for leaving...blah blah blah<p>crud..I've got work...I will check back... At the very least let her know you are thinking about it all and will get back with her when you feel you can answer fully.

JR.<p>I agree with resilant..that she can use this "against/for" the marriage....the old "you deserve someone better than me" (right up there with the i love you but am not in love with you line of doo-doo)...It is not her decision to decide who and what you deserve/want...it's yours...<p>We can all wallow in fears of others not meeting our expectations..it's a stall tactic...<p>I think that you should give her some good points for iniating the conversation...that THAT is a good thing...what she is saying is pretty much fog-drivvle...but the if you don't give positive feedback for trying then it may make her withdrawl..and use it against you...
the old "i tried to open up and you just shut me out or didn't care or blah blah blah...."<p>The challenge is what she said is pretty much nonsense...and there is no point in addressing/legitamizing/lbing over...<p>So here I am with no real advice [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
on how to address...your reply I think is not exactly true...<p>I'm the same person you fell in love with and willfully married years ago." None of us are the same you've grown and matured and have gained great insight and wisdom...as reconized by your next line... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
"I have changed a great deal, thanks for recognizing that." Yes you have changed..
for the better
with the strength to face what does come your way..<p>Thank her for her opening up...thank her for telling you that this is how she feels but don't give much merit...and I think then lay low...be kind,<p>You have done some great work..and the more exposed she gets the more the affair loses that illusion of magic and perfection..as reality comes crashing down...
I say validate she tried..and go with the boundaries...
peace to you and your home
ARK

I have to agree with Hope. You should accept the hand that is reached out to you. I see in you a lot of what my husband has felt and expressed to me. Opening up and admitting how you still love her and want to work things through WITH her, will make you feel vulnerable. If you express to her what you feel and think then you may be opening up new ways for her to work around you and continue her double life. Maybe so, but then maybe she is being genuine here. Ok, yeah, you don't trust her now. Why would you?! However, that doesn't mean you may never again trust her. Let her know that yes it will take time, sincerity, determination, and effort on her part if she ever wishes to earn your trust again. That it will be a long hard road that she must be willing and desire to travel down, but that she doesn't have to travel it alone - that you will be by her side every step. Let her know that you want to trust her, but she has to want to give you reason to trust her. Let her know that yes you love her and you want her, but that if she wants this to work then there needs to be some work done on both your parts. I have learned all this through rebuilding with my husband. I know he wants to trust me, but I also accept that he cannot at this point. However, I know that one day I will show him I deserve his trust again. She has to want that too. Right now you are faced with this decision of do you protect your heart, or do you take that leap of faith just one more time. Unfortunately only you can make that final decision. However, remember this - to try and not succeed will hurt, but to not try at all will hurt too. Which would hurt more at this point?<p>I hope this helps. I wish you the best, and hope that this is just the beginning of clearing some of the bouders in your path. Take care.

J.R.???<p>What did you decide regarding the "proposed" email response to W you posted? <p>Jo

Gah! Really busy here at work suddenly... will just reply back with a quick message letting her know I got her message and will respond shortly...

I just wanted to touch on something Arc wrote about the comment "you deserve better". Although I agree with what was written, and realize that it's true in many of not most cases, I wanted to show another side to it. For me I felt this way when I completely saw me as the person I had become while in my affair. I truly felt my husband deserved better, and it hurt, but in any event my husband didn't want better, he wanted me. Now we are working really well together and creating a better life for us TOGETHER. I was blessed, and every day I work to make it so that he never regrets staying by my side and giving me that one more chance. I like who I am becoming, but I hate who I had become then. I hope this makes sense. I validate and agree with what Arc said, but I just wanted to share it in a bit of a different light. I hope this helps.<p>Also, maybe you should look at some of the posts under Tomek's "have I done the right thing". There is a lot there about communicating productively. It looks to me that there may be a chance that that's where you and your wife very well could be headed. I hope for the best for you. Take care.

JR,<p>I think you have gotten wonderful advice and I do agree that you need to tell her what you feel for her, about yourself. I think you need to open up to here. So why am I posting. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I think you need to realize something that your W doesn't realize yet. You have nothing to lose by opening up to her and telling her the truth about your feelings. If nothing changes the marriage is gone, and if she uses this information against you the marriage is gone. So in my mind there is nothing gained by not telling.<p>If you open up and make yourself vulnerable, the marriage begins to change. She may use it against you, the marriage is over. She may use it to help her, and the marriage, in this case there is hope for the marriage.<p>I may be a sap, but I think her questions was sincere. I don't think the fog is gone, but I see this question very very rarely asked by WS's on this board or discussed on this board. It suggests to me a level of sincerity that isn't usually found. It doesn't mean the fog lifted or isn't going to roll in again, but I would definitely answer this question as deeply and sincerely as I could if I were you.<p>Again, my only real piece of advice is to suggest that you really have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking her request seriously. I think H4F, resilent, ark, Tuter, and all have given you the straight skinny here.<p>Think deeply and give her an answer from you heart. JR, I would go deep with this one and really let her see your heart, your hopes, your fears. First, simply ask her if she really wants to know and is willing to sit and listen to you. If she is, go deep.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</p>

Okay, how does this sound for a response??? (Could be the most important Plan A letter I've done to date.)<p>I agree with all prior replies... it's hard to wrap it all into one thing. I've attempted to use a LOT of "I" statements, thus truly giving my perspective - which is what she asked for. I've tried to avoid disrespect - not trying to put words in her mouth. It's definitely not angry. It's honest, too.<p>------------------<p>Hi there, well I've found those moments...<p>First, I've got to say I really value your opening up to me like this. From my angle, it seems like some tangible dialogue. I know at least for me it seems like we've been dancing around things for a long time, so to see something like this is "a good thing" - puts a smile on my face. I really do appreciate it.<p>If I take your letter as meaning what I think you mean, you want me to open up to you. If you’re prepared for that, please read on.<p>You'd asked me this morning "what do I want?", "do I even want our marriage?"<p>My take on it is that I want a new marriage - the old one is history regardless. I think that was a point IC/MC made a while ago, and I've tried to take it in and embrace it, really. If it's to be with you, I realize the difficulties, as you may too. Sure, not easy stuff, but I see so much potential. It's not my preference, but if it's not you, then there's a whole new set of challenges. However, I feel I'm far more equipped today to deal with them, to get to my end-goal, which is true happiness for both my partner and I.<p>So what constitutes "true happiness"? (Did I anticipate your next question, maybe?)<p>For me as an individual, it means continuing on a path of growth and understanding. It means knowing my weaknesses and dealing with them, with loving help. They'd include things like being "closed," acting without thinking, and not being more "aware". It means drawing on my strengths, such as being kind, articulate, and strong. It means learning from new skills (e.g. independence), and applying WISDOM (yes, I HOPE I've gained a large measure). It means applying all of the above in a way that makes my partner feel special, loved and yes, cherished. It means being excited. It means honesty. Is it something that should be easy, automatic or constantly euphoric? It can be often, I wish it were always - but when it isn't, I hope I've proven that if anything, I'm understanding, willing, and tough as nails.<p>Let me return to the topic of wisdom for a moment. What are some things I’ve come to see?<p>On the topic of forgiveness… I’m not an expert on the topic, but I’m learning. I need to learn to forgive, as much as you do. It’s a gift I give myself, and I want to give it, I really do. That’s why I think I can succeed at it – because I want it. And I often get what I want, when applied properly. Sometimes what I get is what I want, but it might not have seemed to be what I was expecting at first, too.<p>On the topic of fears… I probably share many of your fears, too, assuming we tried to make things work. Will you get over your resentment? Will I get over trust issues? Will we actually succeed at meeting each others needs? Having such similar fears is probably a good thing, I’d think. Applying understanding to them and being willing to examine them is something I’m willing to do.<p>On the topic of feeling… I could say a lot here, but I don’t want to come across as being disrespectful of feelings. I believe in them. I also know that one day, many years ago, I had no feelings for you, and that changed. I came to love you very, very much. The truths that went into making that love are still there, you know. You possess the same virtues I valued, and still value. Admittedly things are more confusing right now. But maybe that’s my feelings talking. The truth is out there, regardless.<p>On the topic of learning… I’ve personally found the best sources of power and inspiration to me have come from others. From people who understand this, and are not there to judge – either the betrayed or wayward. To feel the love and concern of others has given me the courage to continue at times when I really did feel like giving up, to date.<p>On the topic of attitude… When we were younger, we behaved in a way that would say “in love.” We let that slide, as a joint failing, I think we both agree. Does that mean we’re incapable of it now? Can feeling follow form? I think it does, but that’s just my impression, again applying wisdom – lessons from reality.<p>There’s plenty of other topics out there… ask away for my thoughts, if you like.<p>I told you I was writing something. Something that describes, in story form, what I see in the kind of life I could have someday. Maybe it is appropriate to give it at this stage, I don't know. My paragraph you commented on came from there, embedded in one particular section. This time has allowed me to shift focus onto "old new things" in many ways.<p>And here's something very important I've learned for myself... that words mean very little - it's really about ACTIONS… to really step back and look at what people are doing, rather than what they're saying. I can't tell you how much of a lesson that is for me. In many ways, it's kept me hoping, believe it or not.<p>I can't speak or feel for you, obviously - never, ever wanted to do that. So I can only speculate that you may feel uneasy about my never trusting you, never seeing you in a good way again, etc. I guess I point to your line about "that you may never be able
to trust me again, given how I have hurt you." Well, my take on it is that trust, to me, is a virtue - it can be lost - and it can be regained… again, not easy stuff, but very possible. It requires the right frame of mind, I think. If I've done anything over the last 6 months, I HOPE it's been to show myself as being resilient, patient and surrendering my ego through humility - that's been my goal, at least. I've constantly asked myself, "What kind of lessons about life and love do I want to hold for my children?" It's helped me. (Not 100% perfect all the time, obviously - but we're all human, right?!)<p>You've noted that I seem different, and in fact I feel different in some important ways. But I hope the undercurrent - that "sweet J.R." - is still there, at very least to provide continuity! I have changed in many ways, but the person you fell in love with is still here, too, don't forget! Again, I appreciate your acknowledgements. You're brave to voice them.<p>As for being spiritual... Speaking for myself, I always have had that undercurrent running through me. Yes, you've seen and appreciated it at times. As is the case sometimes, perspective can be lost. That doesn't mean that the current isn't still there. I tend to have a complicated take on many things, and sometimes I don't speak about them, very much because I don't fully understand them myself. That's an area I've got to work on, realizing that incomplete understanding is still worth sharing. I think our past discussions about life have proven that we share a lot in common, although I don't claim to be the perfect authority. I know you don't either.<p>In the end, I see the emotional-physical-spiritual triangle more clearly than I ever have in my life. And I realize it's overlap between the individual and the marriage - to be enmeshed without losing one's individuality - something I think we'd both agree with didn't understand well enough.<p>Notwithstanding all of the above, I do need to admit a few things, WW. First, I'm increasingly dissatisfied with the fact that we are where we are. My personal lessons in change do require a partner, and I feel like I have none right now. So I don't think you should be all that surprised by the fact that I have been developing my boundaries, and am certainly willing to implement them.<p>I honestly have no fear right now. It might sound strange, but time - and hope - has given me the will to do what's best for me. If you want to participate, I hold out my hand to you. If you don't, I understand. I may not agree, but I understand.<p>I've said it before plenty of times, "I want what you want." Why? Because I can't be happy in an environment where you aren't, or aren't getting what you want. My happiness has paralleled what happiness I've perceived in you. Hmm, yes I suppose I have grown not-so-happy over time, too. But that was then... and this is now. What are we going to do about it?<p>I've said a few things here, by no means everything. But I think you wanted me to respond with some substance, and I hope I have. I'd certainly embrace your spilling / continue spilling your heart, too. I'm not afraid to hear anything.<p>I don't want to write in a way to inflict guilt. My goal has been to be as honest as I can possibly be. If you want to talk more about it, that's fine. If you want to let it sit for a bit, that's fine, too. I'm happy to be me today.<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: J.R. ]</p>

JR,<p>Not a bad response, but I have a question. What do you envision as the type of marriage you would want? What have you learned explicitly about yourself: good and bad? What have you learned about your spirituality and its connection to marriage, specifically? What have you learned about your ability to forgive, feel, and learn?<p>I am guessing that these are things that she wants to know. If you agree tell her. As I said before JR, go deep with this one. Use it to help yourself if not your marriage.<p>You won't get asked these questions very often by anyone, take this opportunity to answer fully and completely. Talk to the woman JR, not just about the generalities but the specifics.<p>Do you see where I am going??<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL, yes, I definitely see what you're saying.<p>I, too, believe she's sincere right now. I think the gravity of the situation is starting to hit her. She's been under such stress from all of this on-going stuff - me talking to OM, etc. - that it might very well be her "moment of crisis" a la Dobson.<p>And she's looking to me for her answers. Is that your Final Answer, J.R.?<p>It looks like a thin break in the fog, and I might just be able to slip in there. Yes, it's kind of rare to see this in WS's, isn't it? I should be very thankful, at least for now!

I think your response was great. However, I do encourage you to go deep as well. Spill your heart and in turn ask her to do the same. It was suggested that you ask her if she really wants to know and if she is ready to sit and really listen. If you take that approach let her up front that nothing you say is meant to be an attack on her or negative. That you are just getting all your thoughts and feelings out on the table. My therapist told us that there will come a point that I need to let my husband tell me everything, I mean EVERYTHING he is feeling all at once. To get it out in bits and peaces seems to leave something behind. So, one day we were sitting outside and I told him that if he was ready to talk I was ready to listen, and listen I did. Even though things hit hard at times, I remembered that it wasn't meant to and it was sort of a clensing to help us work past the feelings together. We embraced the moment and accepted eachothers outreached hands. It seems that both you and your wife may be ready to do that. Also, her hesitation that you sense in her words may simply be that she realizes she may have just lost everything, just before she realized you are everything she wants. Just a thought.<p>One other thing, and this is just my opinion. . . in your letter to your wife you mention about "If it's not with you, then there's a whole new set of challenges. . ." My suggestion would be to point out that you would prefer it be with her. This is what she is asking. She is suggesting that she has come to some realization, are you still in it or have I lost you along the way. Just my thoughts. As for the questions and concerns about what you think and feel - if she is sincere, you will see it slowly progress to being asked more often.<p>I hope this helps and I wish you the best. Keep us posted. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Everyone, I've gone back and edited my prior reply to her... I'm trying to beef it up with more specifics, more detail. But I can only type so much in a day, so it might just have to do for now... I'm hoping it's the start of a larger discussion. First steps...<p>Let me know... I've really appreciated the comments so far.

Your response to your wife is beautiful and quite elegant not to mention poetic, honest and absolutely no-nonsense. If you can spice it up.....so much the better! Do not ever doubt your capabilities of properly voicing your feelings because your post leaves little doubt about your obvious talent.<p>BTW......great letter [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

J.R. you are doing wonderfully. I hope things went well with the letter, and I'm sure in time it will open new doors for communication. Don't be discouraged if she doesn't reply immediately - it could just mean she is taking it all in and digesting it. Take care, and keep us posted.

Hi all,<p>Well, the response was indeed limited. She seems pretty foggy still, and some minor discussions post-letter were kind of her "old way" of dealing with things.<p>Anyhow, I have no expectations set. I have little doubt she's going to leave, which is fine, because it's something I've expected for a long time. I've had two professionals say it's going to be part of the process, regardless. I still don't have to feel good about it. I can try to leave her in as positive frame of mind that I can. She is definitely acknowledging a great deal of change in me, which is a good sign.<p>Yup, I'll keep you all posted! Thanks for the encouragement - it's going to be a challenging couple of weeks. (But at least things are moving somewhere, the paralysis was killing me.)