HAve you told her specific things and when they happen. For example. My H said to me a few weeks ago that I don't listen to him, he told me again at a moment I was actually doing it, ie your not listening to me. It was true, I was trying to justify myself, and put my opinions in. That's not what he wants.<p>Keep learning, I have my moments when it all seems futile. I also keep thinking about what happens when he does actually commit to the marriage and OW is gone - it will be even harder then, as you are experiencing right now. <p>Keep hanging in, we all need to keep telling each other that! Reminding each other that its just a bump in the road.

Seahorse:<p>Thanks again for the thoughts. I do have to snap back from time to time and realize where we are in our "recovery" and not try to expect too much too fast. I really do hope we can look back at this in a year or so and be thankful for what we have together - one heckuva lot, when we reflect!<p>thanks,

I'm not angry, other than with myself and my past actions...sorry if I gave that impression. I do however stand by what I said. If you allow a little...they will take a lot. I'm speaking both from experience and 2 years of watching this on the sidelines in situation after situation. My son is the MOST precious thing in the world to me, which is exactly WHY I stand up to him when he crosses the boundries. I don't think you do anyone any favors by looking the other way. I'm not saying put your foot down and be a jerk...boundries can be set very lovingly. Personally I feel FAR MORE loved to have my H tell me that he doesn't want me in contact with the OM then if he sat back and tolerated it.<p>There is a valid and nonbending reason the no-contact rule exists. You can "ease" into it if you want...but it's my opinion, from EXPERIENCE, that it only invites trouble.

I haven't posted in just ages, but this post got me fired up! <p>My XWH and I are well into a successful recovery for over a year now. The one aspect that still eats at me is my lack of resolve in establishing no contact from Dday.<p>You must face the facts. You do not have a working marriage with your wife. It is hard to face that fact but you don't. Untill all contact/emotions are severed for good you, are in limbo.<p>IMHO, plan A's are virtually impossible to accomplish with ongoing contact. You will be an emotional wreck and your wife will hate you for it. Please read "Love must be tough". Like it or not your wife must decide her future right now. Keep your self respect and dignity and require no contact.<p>To this day because of work related contact, I still question what emotional connection and interactions my husband was having with his XOW. And it hurts me that I did not stand up for myself and ask for a separation untill he was able to sever all contact.<p>Affairs are power plays. You need to stick up for yourself and your emotional well being by protecting your heart. The ongoing contact as innocent as it may be, made me angry and made me feel a fool. Your real reconciliation can only begin when she is willing to go "cold turkey". Anything less is just manipulation.<p>I can't imagine the heartache you must feel, but you need to be brave.<p>Blessings,<p>Shaz

H4F: "Personally I feel FAR MORE loved to have my H tell me that he doesn't want me in contact with the OM then if he sat back and tolerated it."<p>I thought I said, maybe many times, that I have clearly stated that no contact is what I will require to stay in this marriage. I'm not demanding, because that's a LB, but I have told W not to expect me to tolerate contact, either. <p>Shaz: "You must face the facts. You do not have a working marriage with your wife. It is hard to face that fact but you don't. Untill all contact/emotions are severed for good you, are in limbo."<p>I think I have faced this fact. I would like to see us both working actively on our relationship, without distractions coming from OM's desire to resume A. But I haven't planted enough love units in my Plan A to give my W any compelling reason to work on our relationship. If I insist on no contact at this point, I frankly think I'd be treating the symptoms of the problems in our marriage, rather than the sickness itself. I wouldn't even get my W to the negotiating table to identify the sickness if I dwelled on the contact issue at this point. <p>Besides, it would be me following the rules, not her. She doesn't have a copy of the rule book (yet) and wouldn't read it if I gave it to her. SO: I can be a demanding, hurt BS and get an angry reaction and accomplish nothing, or I can focus my attention on the best qualities of our M, my W, and work on defining our boundaries, and THEN bring up the issue of what to do about the OM. My IC suspects, rather strongly, based on talking to both of us individually, that if I do that, and my W really decides she wants our M (the only reasonable option, considering her own recognition that the A was a destructive fantasy), and that the OM will become so unimportant that no contact at that point will be comparatively easy to agree to. <p>Just my 2 bits (that's a paradigm + 5 cents)

First of all...I was commenting to the original post and in general...not specifically to you.<p>Second of all...I still stand by what I've said. You can reason away what you are doing or aren't doing...I just don't happen to agree.<p>One more thing I have learned from these message boards...is that most people who are confused and seeking answers will tend to shift to the group of other people in their similiar situation. Sometimes that leads to commissery, and sometimes not. But in order to move ahead and learn real answers...you've got to be willing to listen to not only that which you want to hear, but that which you do not want to hear. The resounding message in most of the posts on this particular thread from others who HAVE BEEN THERE (on all sides) agree that NO contact is necessary to move forward. Not "no contact" when it's convenient or less inconvenient or what have you.<p>I'm not trying to be difficult...I just think you are either avoiding or denying... At any rate, I believe my opinion/advice has been amply stated and since I don't appear to doing anything except irritating others (even when my posts were not specifically to any particular person) I will get back to other matters at hand. Good luck, sincerely.

H4F: <p>I really am not doing this to "get the last word." I hope it doesn't come across that way.<p>"But in order to move ahead and learn real answers...you've got to be willing to listen to not only that which you want to hear, but that which you do not want to hear."<p>Agreed, most emphatically.<p>"The resounding message in most of the posts on this particular thread from others who HAVE BEEN THERE (on all sides) agree that NO contact is necessary to move forward. Not "no contact" when it's convenient or less inconvenient or what have you."<p>But just when would no contact be the most effective? D-day? Before the WS makes the "decision" to have the A? (in effect, that's what a person resisting temptation is doing with OP that won't take "no" for an answer). <p>I guess my point here is that the "no contact rule" is not necessarily a universal rule applied by MC's the world over. I happen to believe it's a very good rule, but in my case simply not implementable with my W *at this time*, but certainly ultimately a requirement from me to move on. Make no mistake, I was minutes away from sending WW and OM an email demanding he get out of our lives and that she get an apartment where she was working out of town and not contact me herself until she could work on our relationship. One IC (human resources at work) even helped me edit the letter a couple of iterations, but then asked me to call my private IC to make sure he agreed it was the right thing to do under the circumstances. He didn't think so, and so I didn't send it, and now I'm glad I didn't. I think that would have been the end of our M right then and there. Without much of a plan A having been run up to that point, I would very likely have trashed any hope of saving our 26yr relationship. And since R with OM is 11 years old, it's going to be very hard, and take some real time, for W to completely let go. I really do hope it won't be long, but considering the pain we both suffered (and my D suffered, because I told her what I was going to do before I was talked out of doing it) from the arguments that entire weekend, I've simply made my own decision to deal with the hurt of contact continuing FOR NOW, so that I can have more time to emphasize the good things we have had together for 26 years, so that she will really know what she may lose. It's working, too. I've seen plenty of signs and she's given me plenty of indications that she really does want our M, but simply is too fogged in to know what to do first. There are clearings in the fog, but only in the areas about the positive aspects of our M. The OM "friendship" issue is still too sensitive an area for us, and so we're avoiding it FOR NOW. I really don't think this condition will last for long, anyway, and so long as *I* can tolerate the very limited contact while planting LU's in her piggy bank, she'll soon be in a better state of mind/understanding of what's going on to be able to accept no contact. Either that, or I'll be much better prepared to go to Plan B and start adjusting to a possible future alone. <p>Sorry if I've hijacked this thread. Didn't mean to.<p>"I'm not trying to be difficult..."<p>But I welcome difficult posts. Helps me focus! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>"Good luck, sincerely."<p>And you too. I sincerely thank you for your viewpoint. This *is* the hardest thing I've ever had to do. It all helps!

"Demand" no...but if my H had looked at me and said...this hurts me to the core of my being...I want you and only you to be my wife, but if this friendship means more to you than our marriage, then I can't be with you anymore. It goes against my dreams and ideas of what marriage is about.<p>Had those words been spoken with love and sincerity...I would not have felt as if a "demand" was give...but a boundry. I'm certainly not saying that in my state of mind I would have embraced it or even followed it...but my H doing/saying NOTHING and ALLOWING it led us NOWHERE.<p>Your situation, however, is different...they all are in some ways...BUT (and doesn't everyone just love a big but) just make sure that this "time allowance" doesn't go from weeks into days into months into years. I'm certainly sure that isn't your INTENTION...but then that's normally the case. If you aren't ready to set these boundries for HER, set them for YOURSELF. You know what I mean?<p>Hardest thing ever....yes...definatly. My H and I survived a tornado...and that was NOTHING (and I mean that with utmost sincerity) compared to this crap.<p>Thanks for discussing this further...I hate to feel that I've stepped on anyones toes, especially those who are in pain and who I was intending to try to help. Your wife is very lucky...hopefully one day she will see that :-)

H4F: <p>""Demand" no...but if my H had looked at me and said...this hurts me to the core of my being...I want you and only you to be my wife, but if this friendship means more to you than our marriage, then I can't be with you anymore. It goes against my dreams and ideas of what marriage is about."<p>Thinking about our dialog on this issue, it does occur to me that I just MIGHT not have said it this clearly yet. <p>"Had those words been spoken with love and sincerity...I would not have felt as if a "demand" was give...but a boundry."<p>This is a very good point. We have to sit down and discuss the boundaries of our relationship soon, and the contact issue will have to be discussed in the process. In truth, the bigger issues are of personal privacy versus openness and honesty, suspiscion verus trust, independence or "ownership" and the like. The OM is pretty small peanuts compared to the problems in our M that have to be discussed before we can even contemplate rebuilding versus divorcing. I honestly don't yet know how the boundaries will turn out, or if I want our M under whatever we are able to agree on or not. I can only hope. But I do think that my Plan A work on ME thus far has prepared me for whatever the outcome might be.<p>"just make sure that this "time allowance" doesn't go from weeks into days into months into years. I'm certainly sure that isn't your INTENTION...but then that's normally the case."<p>Ask Just Learning! He'll tell you it's all he can do to keep me from acting too quickly! I spend large numbers of hours/day thinking about this and working on myself. It really is just that tough a nut to crack!<p>"If you aren't ready to set these boundries for HER, set them for YOURSELF. You know what I mean?"<p>Absolutely!<p>"Hardest thing ever....yes...definatly. My H and I survived a tornado...and that was NOTHING (and I mean that with utmost sincerity) compared to this crap."<p>We've survived a recent major fire at our house. Part of our stress since D-day has been with dealing with rebuilding, contractors, insurance agents, public adjusters, furnitur refinishers, and replacement housing folks on a pretty much daily basis WHILE recovering from an A!<p>I also watched my mom die. That was hard, but it was nothing whatsoever compared to the pain of infidelity. <p>"Thanks for discussing this further..."<p>Thank you!!<p>"I hate to feel that I've stepped on anyones toes, especially those who are in pain and who I was intending to try to help."<p>Hey, that's why we have so many toes!<p>"Your wife is very lucky...hopefully one day she will see that "<p>Thank you. I hope she will too. Heck, I hope even more that I'll look back and realize how lucky I am that she chose ME to spend the rest of her life with.

H4F thanks for your honesty. I agree with no contact whole heartedly, I've told H this. I'm trying my best here, yes, it helps to hear that others are going thru the same thing, but I've never been in this situation before. Plan A is saying "insist on no contact", others are saying let it be, don't say anything. Others again say no contact. Its ****ing confusing and yes I mad about this situation. I don't think I deserved it!<p>I could say to H what you said re "it hurts me to the core of my being, etc, etc", but frankly to say "I can't be with you at this time", ****, it scares me to the core to loose the person I thought I was going to spend my life with. If he goes, and I was the one who told him to do it, could I live with myself? I don't know. <p>I'm not upset at you, in fact, I did post to you that I wanted your feelings during the whole mess of an A but you never replied, I thought you didn't want to, or you may have missed it.<p>Don;t stop posting, I just got from the tone in your message you were mad and wanted to know why (I can't deal with mad right now, my H leaves for Bangkok in a few hours and I'm not coping at all).

um, wow, so I am I see many of you are struggling w/ this issue also. I wanted to post a quick recap of how WS and I handled this situation.<p>DDay 01/20/02
WW spends the weekend w/ OM before she leaves for another state to go stay w/ relatives. That night i called her after OM picked her up saying I thought we had some things to discuss before she left, she didnt think so. Was chatting w/ her dad about how angry I was over her lying and leaving w/ OM, told him that I was not going to let her take our son w/ her if this is how she was going to act, her dad called her and told her this, she came home w/ in 10 mins, major fight, WW comes home the next morning and says she made a mistake, I told her that I wanted to work things out, she agreed.<p>The next 4 days are freakin awesome, we do everything together, even go so far as to make a recommitment to our vows by putting our rings on each other, I am almost happy beyond belief, but as a precaution I still check her email, find out she is still talking/writting OM, i confront her, she tells me she has spoken w/ him and told him that its too risky to see him right now, I am not happy about the response but accept it, she is home after all. <p>I email her a letter telling her how I feel about our current situtaion, very long, very personal, she forwards the email to OM, he writes her back saying he could only read the first paragraph, I am furious, confront WW again, only this time I can no longer tolerate her lies and tell her to leave if she is not going to be honest. She leaves.<p>Now the reason I posted this is because for the 4 days she was home we were trying this on our own, I had not yet found MB.com, so i was not aware of how critical this situation was. I could not handle knowing that she still "wanted" contact, she told me she was ready to try and work things out, but was just lying, thats what really made me angry. It has now been 3 months since DDay, and I have been working on making changes, but contact w/ WW is very limited, and about half the time she is "fogged in" so it seems to make sense to try and ask her to come home and start working on our issues, this time I am saying that I wont "demand" no contact simply because she needs to see the changes in me and decide if she is really wanting to make a comitment to reconcile. I have told her that we should at least set a time limit, like 6 months to see if we are able to act/react differnetly towards each other, then after that time review our situation and decide if we should continue.<p>I dont think her having contact w/ OM is going to be easy, but at least I wont have to wonder if she is hiding or lying about it, and if its out in the open then maybe it wont be such a big deal. However I did speak w/ her tonite and told her about wanting to check out a loft, her remarks were distant and cold, she said she is not sure if she wants to even live in the same building as me, that doesnt hurt it just shows how childish she is. Her alternative is that she has to work 2 jobs and live in a studio apartment, also I would get to have custody of our son, which absolutly fine by me, however that does not give us time to try and work out our problems.<p>I needed to hear if anyone else has done this and was successful.
Thanks for listening.

Well here is another two cents (btw) I am a wsh, so have some insight from the ws side. I am not going to say this from my personal circumstances, but from my understanding of human psychology...and observations of human behaviour.<p>1. Nobody responds well to ultimatums of any kind (and rightly so) such a thing is a highly aggressive act, and a control mechanism...you are trying to MAKE your wife do something. The most likely outcome is she will tell you to go to hell, whether she wants the om or not, and rightly so, no human being (including bs) has any right or status to tell another how to live their life. If she agreed (under duress) she will be highly resentful, so you lose either way, resentment rarely leads to good outcomes. And if one of her issues (I don't know) feeling controlled, not heard etc. you have just validated that in spades. For those who have good outcomes, is only cause their ws was done anyways, and did not know how to breakoff, they were ready to settle for their bs, so the ultimatum really wasn't one.<p>Now that is not to say a bs cannot say calmly, that they undertstand they are no longer chosen, and that the ws must follow their own path, but that they (bs) really cannot live this way, and needs to get on with their life too. And tell the ws they will file for divorce so both can legitimately live their personal lives as they want....but you don't do that unless you mean it. Then the ws has a choice to make, if they do not want divorce, they will tell you, and you can negotiate the conditions of the exploratory time for seeing if marriage is over. If you are not ready to do that, then you suck up, and prepare for rough sailing. But no LB'ing, do the plan a, and figure out whether you can live in same house, and if not move...or ask ws to move.<p>2. I have come to question the harley notion that affairs are as simplistic as to be likened to addictions, or that ws never know what they are doing (fog). This does a disservice to bs who then think all they have to do is rescue/fix the ws, and all will be well. Affairs run all the same gamuts as marriage, and happen for the same reasons, bonding, needs met, infatation... people get married mostly for the wrong reasons (poor understanding of what they are doing, obsessions, addictions, personality disorders, dependentcy) and so do affairs. People in pre-marital relationships often pressure each other too, marry me, or hit the road...and usually with bad outcomes. The worst possible way to restore a marriage is demand the ws behave the way you want them to... <p>An affair is in one sense a compeition, your spouse has decided to start dating, and you need to win them back, not force them back, just as if you were not married. Demands can work cause you have bigger weapons to use, kids, vows, guilt, etc. but you will regret it in the long run. What you want is for the ws to choose you, not be forced to choose you, not settle for you (cause op does not work out) but to choose you...they are less likely to do that if the bs does not correct the things in them that don't work for the ws. (assuming there is anything significant to correct, and assuming the bs wants to change anything, they must want to for themself, not to keep the ws, sometimes there is nothing to be done, the ws is all the problem, they are not marriage material, and the bs is simply dependent on them).<p>If you want to spend the rest of your life policing your ws, then go ahead and try to use ultimatums, putting your marriage on the line everytime they think about their punishment if they behave in a way you do not want. It seems sometimes like the intent is to isolate the ws, give them no other choices than the bs, and convince them the bs is the best thing for them, that is not necssarily so....the best thing is a ws who works this through themself, knows what they want, and acts on it...if it is you, then you have em forever....if not, then best to find out now. You can manipulate a ws back into recovery, happens all the time here, too often with disasterous results, after the honeymoon period fails, and real life creeps back in. IMO bs focus way too much on the ws/op and not nearly enough on themselves. <p>I think the harleys got this down to a science, and do it well. After discovery, say nothing about the affair, do a good plan a FOR YOU, while leaveing a good impression with ws, set boundaries FOR YOU, not as coercion....and if that means plan b right out of the gate go for it. But REALIZE your marriage is over, no guilt, coercion, manipulation...and be prepared to walk steadily down the path a, b, divorce....that is your best way of finding out the truth of your ws, yourself, and the marriage.<p>If, you argue with, LB to, coerce (ultimatums, threats of kids, etc.), guilt your ws they are far more likely to leave, as well they should, you are not a very safe place for them...you want to control them, own them, you are not really all that concerned about how they feel, what they need/want, you just want them (for you)...and most human beings find that very undesireable....if there really was a chance (and there might not have been) that kind of behaviour greatly reduces it. IMO the single most important ingredient to a successful recovery, is letting your ws work out there own stuff in their own way...and the bs doing the same, with ever increasing boundaries.....after reading hundreds of stories, histories here, I have concluded the best way to proceed is ignore the affair alltogether BUT have a very definite time line, and the more the affair continues, the shorter the time line to plan b. I would try hard for radical honesty (your ws telling what is going on) by being 100% safe and saying nothing about it, just thanks for the status, a bs deserves that, and it is not an unreasonable request. Do what snooping you can safely do (so can assess your ws intent, and honesty), and work on yourself. Don't do anything you do not want to do, and you should avoid the doormat syndrome, but if everything you do is just cause you want your marriage back, and will not accept it ended when your ws wandered, then I think you hurt your chances a great deal. No one needs their ws, you can and will find another mate, if you conduct yourself with this in mind, your ws will know that, and is the fundamental basis of attraction in human beings, no one (except abusers, and other power mongers) is attracted to needy, clingy, woe is me, mates....

SNL...addiction...absolutely. I think your post was right on!!<p>Seahorse...I can see why you would think my post was "angry"...because I am, just like you are...I don't like seeing people treat other people like crap, and most certainly I am remourseful that I ever WAS one of those people. The anger was at myself, and at other WSs...and, yes, a little at my H for "allowing" and sitting back and doing nothing. It most certainly wasn't his fault, but he did contribute the the problems in the marriage prior, and he most certainly contributed the the junk by continuing to sit on his duff and DO NOTHING. So, no, I wasn't mad at you or anyone else...mostly just myself. It just seemed like that misunderstanding went from bad to worse when I felt like I ticked off 2long too. That's one tricky thing about message boards...you don't know people enough to "hear" what they're saying, even if they say it badly, or see their expressions and hear their truly intended tones to pick up what emotions are really going through them.<p>SS...well, your original post wasn't all that detailed...so from the little you put you got the straight and narrow of what people think about contact. That had to be very disheartening and frustrating, to know your W was sending on letters that you sent to her. I pretty much did that with my H too, except over the phone. Told OM everything he said and did. Then for a time it just went to "friendly" talk...hi, how are you, just making sure you're doing ok, did you see that new computer dealy (one of the things we had in common) yadda yadda yadda....Let me tell you what those "tiny" conversations did. They kept the door open...they filled emotional needs...and they fed the addiction, although in a smaller scale. I was not able to concentrate on US because I would still think about HIM. It may seem like one little thing that you can bend on just this once...or for a while...but in my opinion it's one of the BIGGEST things that HAS TO BE in order to crack the addiction and allow healing to begin. A lot of it is habit. H and I would do something fun and my first instict would be to run and tell OM about it. Like he wanted to hear that I had fun with my H??!! It was just that he had become my crutch (some might call it a best friend, but it was far more entwined and complicated than that). I keep hearing everyone say "but they're so deep in the fog right now". Look, take it from someone who was in the fog for 2 years....you don't EASE out of it. Coming out of the fog is literally like popping a cork. BOOM...there it is. When in the fog the moments of "clarity" often bring about horrible moments of anxiety and panic attacks...so the "clarity" is fairly lost.<p>Anyway...you've gotten my $.02 and enough extra for a pop. :-) Good luck, and be careful.

h4f, I think you might have misread, I don't think affairs are addictions (although I can see the analogy for some cases)..I think they are the same as all human relationships/attractions, and have the same range of psychological interactions marriage does. Many marriages are addictions, we just use a different label, co-dependentcy, friends and relatives are screaming at you to leave the abusive/neglectful spouse but you don't...you are "addicted". I am sure many (maybe even most) affairs are also co-dependent addictions...and like a bad marriage, one should just "stop" and leave, but that is hard to do...however it must be decided on by the ws...we don't take alcoholics and just lock em in a room for rest of life and say, there you are cured...they have to want to be cured, and they have to be able to be around alcohol, and not succomb....likewise ws, they have to leave the op on their own power, without coercion, cause they want too....otherwise they may simply come back for awhile until the next op comes along...why? Cause they didn't choose, someone else chose for them...either the bs with threats, or the op dumping them (or not working out)...the only good outcome is a ws who chooses the bs above all others, and that is pretty much a remarriage psychologically.....too often the ws simply settle for the bs, I am not so sure that is a good thing for the bs (but might be a good thing for the ws). Personally I find the whole issue of why an affair occurs in the first place very illuminating re the real efficacy of a particular pairbond, also the reasons the ws returns are very crucial....humans seem drawn to "honeymoon" scenarios (hence so many false recoveries), fairytale endings...but if they don't do the work, the marital fantasy will simply fail again. Anyways, ultimatums are counter-productive, cause they solve nothing in terms of why's, IMO it makes much more sense to let a spouse be completely free to pursue whatever they want, and if they cannot get out of the "fog" I think that is good to know, personally I would have zero interest in having to watch a spouse, or worry about them protecting me from their fog, etc. If someone doesn't choose me everyday, or there is the slightest chance they would wander off, I would prefer to let them go, is not how I need intimacy....the whole notion of controlling a spouse behaviour (protection) to keep them focused on me slightly nauseates me.<p>I do agree a freindship with op (even if affair over) can be a crutch, and distracting, but again the ws has to assess that (hopefully accurately), it sounds like you did. Now you apparently choose your H above all others, no one can fill your needs/fit you as well as he does (and you him) so that is good, assuming you are being radically honest, and really are not just settling cause starting over is just not worth the guilt, saddness, fear, risk etc, that leaveing a marriage entails. I often wonder about something though, if people divorced and put as much effort into making a marriage with op work...would it? Is that why bs get scared, they feel they could be replaced? So do everything they can to interfer with the affair? If the op is always a no good for nothing (and you, the bs, the one person on the planet that is best for them) then won't the ws realize that on their own? And if they won't, why does anyone want such an ignorant ws anyways?<p>[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

SNL--I use the term fog, but I question it as well. The WS is clearly making decisions all the way along from the moment of OP interest to opportunity to whatever comes next. <p>I tend to think of fog as stubbornly pursuing the A, or the dream/possibilities of the affair, no matter who gets hurt, even when the affair clearly isn't working or adding positives to the WS's life.<p>[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</p>

I agree that fog has a certain useful ring to it, but indeed I think (like you) ws are still functioning human beings and clearly know what they are doing, and choose to do so (I did). The problem is this idea the ws must be in a fog cause how could someone be so hurtful to another (bs). I cannot emphazize this too much it is NOT about the bs, at best they are collateral damage, this is primal stuff going on about the ws. It is incredible hubris that the bs thinks their marriage is only about them, and that if a ws acts contrary to the bs needs it must be some deliberate uncaring, or malicious motivation...which of course sets up all the anger, depression, fear of rejection..etc. The state of the marriage is a function of the two people, but the affair has absolutely nothing to do with the bs, it is an independent action of the ws, and has nothing to do with fog, it is a choice.

SNL-I can agree with your view of fog as I know I made choices as an WS. But I disagree that an affair is only a choice on the WS part and has nothing to do with the BS. The WS for a time may choose to ignore the effect of their actions on the BS, but the BS suffers the effects. And, I knew I was hurting my H, because I'd just been through it as a BS. Plus, lots of Ws blame the BS verbally...what BS wouldn't take that to mean the A has something to do with them?<p>I wouldn't wish being both WS & BS on anyone, like I am, like my H is, but it is the rare WS who really comprehends the damage a WS does to the BS. [my apology to SNL for the brusqueness I am no deleting]<p>[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</p>

I am not so sure I don't copmprehend it lor, or even that I would not feel equally bad, I just don't think it has anything to do with life (if it did there would be no affairs). It is a dead end place to go emotionally (for a bs), and I would say nothing to ws about it, cause I know it makes no difference, or would be coercive, both things I abhor.....I am not sure people understand my view on this, I don't want my spouse to "care" about me (as a duty), I want them to do whatever they want to do, that is the only way I feel I know who they really are, and that is the only way I feel safe (can trust them)...I do not want to be protected from emotional pain, it is mine, and I will deal with it....do you see? It has taken a while for me to realize not many value honesty and openess to the extent I do, maybe that makes me a psychological freak, I dunno. But that is why I am not particulary sympathetic about bs pain, why wouldn't a bs want to know the truth about their spouse, the pain is worth that knowledge IMO. To me, a spouse who could have an affair, but chooses not too, cause they don't want to hurt me is a much worse betrayal than one who does what they want to do, for them. Then I know a spouse who does meet my needs, does not turn to another, is doing so cause that is what is best for them....and in that I know I am chosen for the right reasons.<p>Why are people afraid of pain anyways? It is a tremendous growth opportunity.<p>[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

So much to talk about and unfortunatly not much time.<p>SNL I didn't technically misread your post...I do understand what you are saying and still agree that it was right on (you aren't going to debate that now are you [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ). But I have a hard time not feeling that the affair is VERY MUCH an addiction. This was debated in detail on the other board I came from as well, and although there were very good arguments as to why true addiction and betrayal differ...it hasn't all quite ever sunk in.<p>All I have to work with is what I know and who I am...I can try to learn more and add to both, but with what I have today I have a hard time distinguishing the differences. I am an obsessive compulsive...come by it naturally since my father was as well. He turned his behavior into alcoholism. Thusly I KNOW that I am prone to alcoholism. Knowing this and wanting very badly to be different than my father, I avoided keeping alcohol in the house. Occasional social drinking, but never within reach. I've never even tried drugs because the idea just simply doesn't even appeal to me. Now...I agree I KNEW that affairs were wrong...but it took me a good long time to even acknowledge that what was happening was indeed becoming an affair. There was no physical contact so I denyed it being anything more than a friendship for a good long time. "Fog" as it's called on this board, is very very real. Denial and pain, mixed with no learned skills with which to recognize what was taking place....next thing you know you're in deep and you don't really know how the heck you got there. Yes, I knew that adultry was wrong...but I'd never witnessed adultry so I certainly didn't recognize the "signs" like I would with alcoholism. I knew something was happening and that I was going to have to do something about it, but at the time I thought that SIGN meant that I had found my "soul mate" and that what I was going to have to do was leave my marriage in order to be with him.<p>Anyway...the other thing I wanted to comment on. You said I chose my H because he fills more of my EN. That isn't true. I know what you mean about people staying married because THAT become the addiction, or crutch... In my case the EASIEST thing would have been to get divorced and find someone new, NOT the OM and not this marriage. Because coming back to this marriage I have to worry that I MIGHT just be here out of comfort and everything else you mentioned. My H really doesn't fulfill my EN nearly as well as the OM did...it came naturally to the OM...we had similiar personalities. It's much harder for my H, but he is trying. I CHOSE to stay with my H because I learned to fulfill the most important needs MYSELF...something I had not been able to do before. In fact, I've learned many new coping skills over the last couple of years. I realized today that there has been a bottle of alcohol in our refrigerator for months. I haven't drank it and I haven't felt the need to have it out of the house for fear I'd drink it. Because for the first time ever I feel control over my thoughts and emotions...and that gives me comfort within. I chose who I am...and I chose not to be an alcoholic, so it's ok to have alcohol around. I believe that will hold true in my marriage as well. I chose my husband and our marriage, despite whatever failings we have together, so I don't have to avoid others for fear I might meet someone more "perfect" for me. It doesn't matter if there is another who would better fulfill those needs...this is my choice and I intend to commit to it. I didn't understand marriage before, now I do (or atleast I'm on my way).<p>I hope to find time later to read your posts more closely and think on them further...but for today I've spent too much time avoiding work as it is!!! Thanks for giving my brain something to chew on...

H4F:<p>gosh, please don't worry that you might have ticked me off. I guess I'm probably one of those people that never gets truly upset through email conversation. I actually find it easier to calmly reflect on what's being said if I can read at my own pace. I'm also very hard to tick off. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>This latest batch of posts has been absolutely fascinating for me. I agree with a lot of things that SNL is saying, and what we've been talking about as well. All of it, including the seemingly contradictory statements. <p>In the end, in my case I would very much rather my W decided to want our M and to sever contact with OM for her own reasons entirely, but it isn't fair, or even realistic for me to have to wait forever (though it may be fair to expect me to wait a "while" longer!). I think that I am prepared psychologically for DV, so that if the issue of no contact or anything else sensitive comes up that can't be resolved during our negotiations of what our M consists of, and what the boundaries are, I believe I can cope with that decision. Would prefer my W for life, but if each of us has too different a view on what our M should be, then I'd very much rather work on myself by myself, and then if at some time in the future an opportunity for another intimate relationship comes up, I'll be better able to be a good companion than I have been.<p>That's all I want/need. [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]