CLK-K,<p>I guess this means your love for H only extends IF HE TAKES THE BAG OF APPLES TO THE CURB. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Sorry, the exceptions don't prove the rule. The point still gets back to BMWM. What does she want. If the household chores are really the deal breaker, not her affair, not his drugs, not his ONS???, then end it. <p>This is a marriage building site, and the idea is to try and reach common agreements POJA it is called, where both sides feel they are heard and that the marriage is of use to both parties.<p>My take on this is best stated by SUSAN. If you only gripe is the house work hire someone to clean it. But, most women gripe to there H's about it. Mine doesn't??? But, she knows she is free to hire someone anytime she wants.<p>Also if I get really sick of things I can take vacation time and come home to clean the house. I will be the most expensive housekeeper she ever had. Of course it then hurts her, because there is less vacation time, less money when we retire, ... Not a very efficient use of time or money.<p>The issue always comes back to what is important. If housework is the only gripe and that ends the marriage, then I don't know what to say except in my mind priorities aren't well established.<p>I will say CLK-K the one that wants the marriage most generally gets the hard task of starting the rebuilding. It can be the WS or it can be the BS, or it can be whoever has or has not contributed the most to the marriage.<p>But, my point is that the important stuff is not the bag of apples. If BMWM wants to go to war over them she can. Her choice, but don't expect H to really understand this. He will very likely look at her and wonder "what is really the problem here?" I know I would.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

For me, it IS about the chores around the house.<p>When my H is working, I have no problem doing the majority of the 'chores'. All I ask of him is to take out the garbage WITH me, do the odd bunch of dinner dishes (once or twice a week), change the odd diaper, and play with the boys.<p>However, when H is NOT working, I want a 50/50 sharing in the household chores. Is that too much to ask for? I don't think so.<p>This thread has touched quite the nerve in me... because it is VERY close to my situation right now. Putting it plainly, helping out around the house is one of my top EN's... and my H isn't fulfilling it. We've talked about it, far too many times than I care to say, and still, not enough actions to follow through with his words on his part.<p>BMWM: it is true that you were being very disrespectful to your H when he wanted to help with the chores and you 'demanded' that he not. Then you turn around and 'demand' that he help with the chores. You are sending him mixed signals as far as the chores go. You should do some inner searching to find out what else you may be sending him mixed signals on. And finally, it just might be too soon for you and your H to move back in together. It sounds like you need to plan more boundaries and limits with each other, but most importantly, you both need to deal with the hurt and resentment from your M prior to the A's. THAT is what matters.<p>Karen

Maybe I won't do well at marriage.
"I guess this means your love for H only extends IF HE TAKES THE BAG OF APPLES TO THE CURB." Kind of...because I would take the bag to the curb for him. I guess I expect a more even-steven kind of relationship. And I am curious...the person who did the affair is the person who "owes" more back into the marriage? The affair can be used to "adjust the scales" on the relationship? These are honest questions. CLK-K

I'm gonna get my feet wet here .....<p>My Husband was allergic to housekeeping, doing laundry, picking up after himself, etc.... basically everything but doing the lawn, which I had to move hell and high water to get him to do even that. I got very tired of doing everything, because that's what it felt like, I WAS DOING EVERYTHING.<p>To be fair, my H's mother raised him where she did everything for him .... E V E R Y T H I N G ! And when I'd ask him to do something in the presence of in-laws, I'd get raised eye brows, or they'd jump up and do it for him Ughhhh!<p>And just to be sure, after our 8th year of marriage I made more $$ than my H, and I worked a minimum of 60 hours a week ... MINIMUM! And the week-ends, well you guys can imagine what I spent my week-ends doing .... HOUSEWORK, and catching up on everything else.<p>Okay .. so, I came to a place where I just couldn't get it all done anymore, I was exhausted and I started to resent my H for not doing his half. Thing is, according to him, HE was doing everything. lol If he took his dinner dishes to the sink, then in his mind he cleaned the kitchen. And if he changed the toilet paper roll, he cleaned the bathroom, if he threw the comforter over the bed .... you get the picture.<p>So, we had THAT talk, you know, the one where you practice it in your car on the way home from work. <p>I discovered because of the way my H was raised his perception of cleaning and what IS clean, was completely different than mine. And JL is right, altho my H loved that our house was spotless and was quite proud when people came over, he would have been satisfied with less clean. <p>So .. to cut to the chase of our solution, we hired a housekeeper, once a week. And that simple and not so costly decision saved me in tons of resentment and energy. I could enjoy our week-ends again.<p>Anyway ... I know the issue in this thread is really more a control issue than anything. And I believe BMWM and her H need to incorporate POJA into their recovery negotiations, now is as good as time as any to exercise the tools the Harleys have offered us.<p>Bye bye & Good Luck,
Jo<p>[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

I don't think the point is the rotten apples. It is the gesture. I think BMWM is thinking along the lines that "if he can't take a bag of apples to the curb for me then what is going to happen when I really need him." And CLK-K I agree with a lot that you say.

I think there are a couple of different points on this thread that seem to be getting snarled...but, INHO, I think breaking it all down and getting back to POJA might help untangle some knots.<p>And POJA doesn't have to wait until he is back home..it should be part of the negotiations before embarking on recovery. And will be much more successful with a minimum of LB's.
So, back to the original post..<p>BMWM, you sound anxious about him coming home for a number of reasons, not least of all is domestic support....And the prior drug use...and the support with raising the kids.... and the A issues haven't even been brought into play.<p>I am a horrible "kitchen sinker". I'll be worried about one thing and then will pile up "everything including the kitchen sink" into the equation and get completely bogged down and very little will get settled. I think I'm seeing some of this in this thread also.<p>So why not take all the different worries you have and list them and at the next counselling session, review them one-by-one and POJA some ground rules you can both live with?
T

BMWM....and you thought that this might be a simple subject?!! HA!!!<p>I try to appreciate my husband's money making skills, but to say "Thank you honey for the paycheck." sounds as silly to me as it would if ws said, "Thank you for taking care of the children, paying the bills, washing the dishes, buying my family gifts, etc." It's all stuff that is expected of me as mostly a SAHM. (I work part time) <p>People keep bringing up 'the bag of apples'. It's not the bag of apples, people. It's a small example of much bigger things and to focus solely on that bag is probably not helpful.<p>POJA is a great idea! Integrate the Harley's principal's into your relationship and take your time. Our marriages didn't crumble overnight and they can't be fixed overnight as well.<p>t.l.

I will preface my response to this topic with an article from the Divorce Busting web site.
The Walkaway Wife Syndrome <p>I believe that there are two issues here. Who does what around the house. And.. Marital recovery.<p>Are for……………….Who does what around the house<p>Re: “I will ask most of these women, did you chose your H because of his housekeeping skills, or perhaps did the fact that he had a job and a future of financial stability play a role?? Don't answer I know.”<p>Sorry you are making assumptions. Sounds like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about this topic.<p>The idea of who does what in a marriage or who married whom for what varies for each couple. Today most women do look at a man’s earning potential. And guess what, most men today look at the woman’s earning potential too. Can’t tell you how many guys have told me that they will only marry a woman who has a professional career. <p>As for the housework and domestic support. Most women marry men who they believe will carry their load of the household and child rearing responsibilities (that means 50/50). So from that point of view, yes we do pick men for their domestic support abilities. But to the surprise of most women, most men seem to loose those talents the moment they speak their vows.<p>Let’s face it., most women work at least 8 hours a day outside the home. Then they are expected to come home, cook, clean, take care of the kids, etc. Men work the same number of hours outside the home and do no more then ¼ of the household chores. This is a crock. Household and family chores are the responsibility of both the husband and the wife.<p>Yes I do thank my husband for the paycheck he brings home and for the little bit he does around the house. And he thanks me for the same things. Yes, these are expected. But it is still appreciated because I know only too well that some people (men and women) will not carry their load around the house. Today my H earns a little more then I do. We both work in demanding professional positions. But if anything is to get done around the house I have to do it. For this reason I hired domestic help… it’s just too much for one person.<p>Yes I did take his earning potential into consideration when I married him. And I can assure you that he looked at mine too. When we met I earned more then he. His new job brought his income over mine. And he also looked at my ability to run a household, cook and parent. I already knew that he had little ability on that end. He does however like to cook… does not do it often but he does a great job. He also likes to do things like build decks. <p>Do not forget that in MB, Domestic Support is one of the EN’s. If a spouse feels overburdened then there is a good chance that the marriage is not going to survive. I would venture to say that <p>
And for …………….Marital recovery.<p>BMWM, had an affair. However if you look at the marital history, she had a husband who, for all intents and purposes seemed to have check out of the marriage a long time ago. Even the Catholic church will allow an annulment for drug use… why? Because it’s an other way to break one’s vows.<p>It seems that in her marriage, he is far from an innocent. Their marital recovery will not be successful if she has to put with what ever he throws her way because she had an affair. It just will not work.<p>Obviously Domestic Support is a major EN for BMWM. In order for the marriage to survive he will eventually need to do his share around the house.<p>What I get from BMWM’s remark that perhaps he should not move in is different from what others seemed to have gotten. I hear her saying, wait a minute. This is dejavu all over again. I want a better marriage, not the old one. Not the one I was running away from. <p>BMWM, it sounds to me as though you and your H have not discussed a plan for how things will be when/if he moves back. <p>It reminds me of when I married my XH. We did not discuss finances before getting married. So the week after our wedding I went out and opened a joint account, gave him the checks, etc. I looked at me like I was nuts. Said that he did not believe in joint accounts… “No woman is ever going to get my money.” Opps… big mistake. We did not even agree on the fine points of financial management of the household. Not having settled this BEFORE we married was one of the biggest problems of our marriage.<p>So, now what to do. It’s up to you of course. But I think a non-love busting conversation about how the two of you are going to handle the domestic support issues is in order. Don’t tell him what to do. Instead brain storm with him and let him decide what he is going to do. This would preferable occur before, or very shortly after his moving in.<p>And for communicating with your H. I can see that you are using the typical female way of talking to a man. It does not work. Hence the problems you are having. I found the book Getting Through to the Man You Love very enlightening.