2long,<p>I notice that you are getting more and more impatient with your W. Reasonable, but not very productive. I have enclosed a thread by SKM. I have shown many people to this thread because within her chronicles you get to see the recovery process from the WS side of things.<p>I hope that it offers you a perspective that will allow your W time to withdraw from her A. It will take probably 6 months and perhaps longer give her A lasted 11 years. But, do read this thread. I hope it helps.<p>SKM's Chronicles <p>I started this thread because I didn't want to break into the "no contact" thread. But, give this some thought. SKM is an impressive woman,I have had the pleasure of meeting both her and her H. You can learn a lot from her posts.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL (and SKM): DAMN! And thanks very much to both of you for that (JL for reminding me to look it up, and SKM for the story of her experiences!).<p>I guess my impatience is due in large part to the essentially awful meeting with the MC on Tuesday. I was floored by her comment at the end that she still felt "emotionally divorced." Has been a bit harder, all over again, to be optimistic about our future after that. <p>But even through my posts and the responses I got from them on the "no contact" thread, I was starting to feel better and said to myself "Self: Wait a gosh darn minute! You WANT your M, you Love your W. Be patient with this Fog thing and cultivate the signs of caring that come from her!" So I just emailed her a note, saying I hope that my comments on the phone don't detract from her enjoying her conference. That I believe in her, care very much about her, and want her to enjoy herself. I also quoted someone's signature line (sorry, I can't remember who it is right now) that says: "Happiness is not having what you want, but wanting what you have." That is so true. <p>Oh well, I'll wipe away the tears now and go home and make the chili dogs for dinner that I promised my son!<p>Thanks again to both of you. I'll try to keep my head up and be supportive instead of harping on the negative things. It's much easier and less time-consuming to destroy than it is to build! Therein is the danger.

2long,<p>Doing my best Dr. Spock imitation [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Being "emotionally divorced" is very logical and a rational thing to do when having an affair.<p>Otherwise, they would go nuts with the guilt. The trick is to get the "divorce" annuled. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] That is why you are here; To annul that divorce. <p>I do hope you see what SKM went through. It is tough on the WS as well, especially when they know what they did was so wrong.<p>Hope you enjoy that chili dog.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL:<p>I wanted to point something out about my meeting with the IC this morning that I guess I just didn't have the "nerve" to post to the "no contact" thread. My IC, when I asked what to do about the continued contact said, "insisting on no contact now, when your W is obviously a very strong-willed person, rather than focusing on giving each other your undivided attention and working on establishing what your boundaries are in your relationship is like putting the cart before the horse. Since she's still home, she realizes that a permanent R with OM is an impossible fantasy. Pointing that out to her won't accomplish anything, but working on your relationship and spending time negotiating your M will, and OM will fade away with time." I put that all in quotes to separate what he said from what I'm saying, but those weren't his exact words. <p>Bottom line is, insisting on a rigid adherence to the "no contact rule" won't work in our case, because my W doesn't subscribe to the rule book. Maybe someday she will, but "not yet. Not yet" (with apologies to that guy in Gladiator).

2long,<p>I tend to agree with your IC. You will need NO CONTACT or very limited potential contact (professional meetings)for you marriage to heal or for you to even stay in it perhaps. But, right now this early in recovery, it will be hard.<p>That is why I posted SKM's story to you. You can see what she was going through. My guess is that your W is going through a similar thing, or she has gone to the opposite extreme of blaming you so that she doesn't have to take responsibility.<p>Her 11 year affair is NOT your fault in any manner. You are wrong to think that it was. Your W had many options 11 years ago, and an A was her choice. It cut you out of the marriage, it meant that your marriage could not get better, and it meant that you were not dealing with all of the facts.<p>She will have to come to a decision at some point, does she want her friend of 11 years or does she want the marriage of 26 years. She may think she has the option, but you really have the call on this. Her affair has not ended, it has just gone into a lull as it has before. <p>You know this, and I think if she is half as smart as she thinks she is, she knows it. It is a matter of her facing her failings and making a decision.<p>You can help slant that decision by using Plan A but that doesn't really change their minds. It simply changes the environment within which the decisions can and are made.<p>Tough stuff 2long, very tough, but you are doing well.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>PS: Perhaps other people will respond to this and throw in their $0.02

JL:<p>"That is why I posted SKM's story to you. You can see what she was going through. My guess is that your W is going through a similar thing, or she has gone to the opposite extreme of blaming you so that she doesn't have to take responsibility."<p>I very definitely saw a lot of parallels in SKM's story to my W's situation.<p>"Her 11 year affair is NOT your fault in any manner. You are wrong to think that it was. Your W had many options 11 years ago, and an A was her choice. It cut you out of the marriage, it meant that your marriage could not get better, and it meant that you were not dealing with all of the facts."<p>I've pointed that out on a couple of occasions, but have backed off on making comments to her about this because it's not helping us enjoy each other. But I definitely KNOW all this to be true. And so the realization will factor into MY negotiations of our boundaries, whenever we get to work on those. I don't plan to demand, I just plan to do my best to make my viewpoint clear so that she can see her own choices more clearly. She doesn't HAVE to choose me, as I pointed out on the "no contact" thread, I'd rather her choose whatever she wants, me or singlehood, than "coerce" her to stay with me. That'd be no a no fun future at all!<p>"She will have to come to a decision at some point, does she want her friend of 11 years or does she want the marriage of 26 years. She may think she has the option, but you really have the call on this. Her affair has not ended, it has just gone into a lull as it has before."<p>This is the point. Even though, on the one hand, she doesn't believe an intimate R with OM is viable even if we do DV, she effectively DOES think a R is possible with OM if we DON'T DV, because she thinks this EA is a "friendship." I'm sure that she would very much like for me to define my boundaries to enable an intimate relationship without sex with OM within our M. But I think she realizes that I can't and I won't. It ain't a friendship, considering their history, it's an A. Pure and simple. She can have that if she wants, but not me at the same time. I will walk.<p>"You can help slant that decision by using Plan A but that doesn't really change their minds. It simply changes the environment within which the decisions can and are made."<p>Correct. PLUS, it's made me a stronger individual in the process. That can only help, regardless of what she decides or what we do.<p>"Tough stuff 2long, very tough, but you are doing well."<p>Thanks very much. Reassurance is always a big help!

2long,<p>A lady here a few years ago made this comment about same sex friends. "She can have male friends, just not with men she has had sex with."<p>I think that is the point, however, there is a post by a lady here today, (can't recall the name) something with a "4" in the middle. She is a WS and she was talking with SnL. She made the point that the OM had become a habit, more than anything else he was a habit she had to break.<p>I suspect that your W feels the right to have her habits (friends). Hopefully, she will see that this "friend" comes at a cost.<p>When she comes back from her meeting, I am sure you two will talk, but spend more time doing things with her and not having the famous OR (our relationship) talk. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Take care,<p>JL

JL:<p>Actually, the quote about male friends should be expanded to indicate "not with men she has had an EA/PA relationship with." Gets back to the "exclusive intimate relationship" with one's spouse issue.<p>Yep about when she gets home tomorrow night. I'll have to pick something up for her before I go to the airport. I definitely love her company, and want to spend some close time with her for a while. Maybe later we can talk about grownup issues.

JL:<p>Don't know if you post on the weekends, but I do. <p>Actually am feeling okay right now. I decided to take charge of my emotions and DEAL. So, when I got home and my S volunteered to cook the frozen pizza, I called my W just to say high and see how her evening was going. No serious stuff at all intended, just a loving "hi".<p>She liked the news about my S. He's been pretty introverted up to the past month or so, and was robbed on the way home from school a couple of days ago, and W was really worried about him. So, a friend of hers was planning on walking to Kinko's after dark in the big city, and my W and her roomate offered to go with her so she wouldn't have to walk alone. Made me feel warm inside.<p>She's actually been doing more of that lately, even for people she's around that she claims "drive her nuts" most of the time. Good selfish acts of caring. I guess I just wish she'd start doing more of that kind of thing for me, but maybe she is (just not focused on solving our problem, maybe) and I just am not seeing it because I'm so "obsessed" with our M problems. <p>So, I'll get a good night's sleep all warm and fuzzy inside!

H'DOING! I meant to say "Good *selfLESS* acts of caring.<p>Boy, I could really mess somebody up trying to fathom a *selfish* act of caring!<p>But it's fun to laugh at one's self from time to time!