All I can tell you is that the withdrawl is painful, but it does get better with time. Some of what is espoused on here is so true -- the no contact rule. When I don't see this friend of mine, the power of the relationship-- as unreal as it was, does fade.<p>I do know this: If I had told my wife about how I felt when I was in the midst of those painful feelings it would have been cruel to her and all involved.<p>I worked through the issues and realize what the attraction was, and how it was false. <p>To have told my wife at that moment would have made me feel like I had someone to carry my burden, but how selfish to inflict it on her.<p>Someone mentioned that you can not have a relationship where lies are involved. I agree, but disagree to this extent:<p>1. Any relationship is based, to some degree, on not always telling the truth. A man does not mention that his wife is gaining weight and he finds it a bit unappealing. A woman does not mention that her husband is going bald and she does not find him as attractive.<p>2. During sex, everyone experiences fantasies best left unspoken. And if you say you have no fantasies, or you tell ALL of them, you are a liar. Does everyone tell their spouse everytime they masterbate? No<p>A relationshisp is balancing act -- and there are times when it is best to not tell all.<p>Just my opinon

CMiranda-<p>1. Does your H know that another man is the 'love of your life?' while he's at home making your home a better place?
2. If you haven't told him, are you planning to?
If not you will be in the same state as mm who in my opinion is NOT seeking advice.<p>mm-you continue to hear what you want. I just wish I knew your wife and could tell her anonymously, she surely can't deserve the lies you've been feeding her. You can justify til the cows come home, won't convince any of us BS.

CM,<p>You really need to keep your story straight! I copied this from the P/C board, just thought everyone else should know:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I also am the OW, my MM and I have a child together. He is a blessing to us both. We love each other very much but as with anyone in these circumstances, to be together would hurt his 2 OC, wife, family, as well as my husband and my family. <hr></blockquote><p>Don't claim to be ending and EA when there is a child as a result from your A. That makes it a PA!

Dear CMiranda,<p>Just a point of order.<p>The term "OC" is used in conjunction with a child born out of infidelity or adultery (non-marriage). <p>[ Other Woman / Other Child ]<p>The MM's children are not "OC", as you have referred to them, they are children born within the Marriage. They are His and His Wife's children, Family.<p>Respectfully,
Jo<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by maggierose:
<strong>CMiranda-<p>1. Does your H know that another man is the 'love of your life?' while he's at home making your home a better place?
2. If you haven't told him, are you planning to?
If not you will be in the same state as mm who in my opinion is NOT seeking advice.<p>Of course not. I did mention that I'm in intense w/d right now and so that is how I feel today. I am hoping that what I'm reading all over this site and what mm has said, is that the while the feelings are intense, they are not real and OM is not really the love of my life. I haven't yet seen how telling my H about OM will help at all. Why would I want to hurt him? Instead, in an effort to try and let my H fullfill some of the voids that I know I have and why I was open to falling in love with someone else, I am trying to express what I need to my H. (example, I took H to dinner on his birthday and suggested how much I'd like him to engage in conversation with me rather than sit there and have nothing to say and let me do all the talking.) I'm trying here but I don't see how revealing my A will make my marriage better and that is what I want at this point.
I think you are too harsh on MM. The guy is trying despite having intense feelings for someone else,he is trying to repair his marriage and stay with his wife. Don't we get any credit here for trying to do the right thing by our spouses/children even when it hurts us and our OM/W?
I don't think it's right for you to suggest/threaten that you'd like to tell his wife. HE is here trying to change, give him a break! You have no right to do anything of the sort even if you could. Its plain wrong and not what this site is about. If someone doesn't live by your standards or take your suggestions, what, you tell! That is a problem for me no matter what opinion of the person is.
mm-you continue to hear what you want. I just wish I knew your wife and could tell her anonymously, she surely can't deserve the lies you've been feeding her. You can justify til the cows come home, won't convince any of us BS.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If mm were just working through this current EA, it would be different. But he also never revealed to his wife the PA he had years ago that he says he doesn't 'regret.' No woman deserves to live all those years of lies. <p>mm-if you go to counseling and figure out what's missing in your life/marriage, you may have a chance. But sitting here trying to convince everyone that you don't have an obligation to inform your spouse of your affairs is just plain selfish, in my opinion of course. I'm sure you are a fine person, but you are only thinking of #1.<p>Cmiranda-wouldn't you want to know if your H was in love with somebody else for 6 years?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tigger4jdt:
<strong>CM,<p>You really need to keep your story straight! I copied this from the P/C board, just thought everyone else should know:<p> <p>Don't claim to be ending and EA when there is a child as a result from your A. That makes it a PA!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>My story has never changed. It is an EA as I understand what difference is between EA and PA. Perhaps your definition is not same but in my opinion a PA is without love. We had a period of seperation several years ago where there was no physical contact for many months while we tried to get out from under our relationship. It was just as intense and the withdrawl just as strong. He and I have an intense emotional bond. The physical was incredible but that is not what I miss the most.
I am in process of ending it, that is why I am here. I don't really care who knows. My ex-OM as he is today, refers to his 2 kids previous to ours as his other children and that is what I call them.
And my response to the other posting remains the truth as I see it.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by maggierose:
<strong>If mm were just working through this current EA, it would be different. But he also never revealed to his wife the PA he had years ago that he says he doesn't 'regret.' No woman deserves to live all those years of lies. <p>mm-if you go to counseling and figure out what's missing in your life/marriage, you may have a chance. But sitting here trying to convince everyone that you don't have an obligation to inform your spouse of your affairs is just plain selfish, in my opinion of course. I'm sure you are a fine person, but you are only thinking of #1.<p>Cmiranda-wouldn't you want to know if your H was in love with somebody else for 6 years?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I can't lie and say no. Yes I think I would but then what if he were trying to come back from it? It is different when the WS is trying to fix the marriage isn't it? I do want to try and if I tell him, I think he will hate me and it will ruin our chance to have what we did before things went wrong.

Dear CMiranda,<p>Another Point of order.<p>[ EA = Emotional Affair ]<p>[ PA = Physical Affair ]<p>If you have an OC by MM and you think you are in-love (ughh) with MM then your situation is a EA/PA.<p>In order to communicate effectively on the MB board it's somewhat important to use the proper and accurate acronyms.<p>If you continue to use acronyms without regard to the MB meaning, you will continue to have communication problems with the other MB posters.<p>Thanks,
Jo<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong>Dear CMiranda,<p>Another Point of order.<p>[ EA = Emotional Affair ]<p>[ PA = Physical Affair ]<p>If you have an OC by MM and you are in-love (ughh) with MM then your situation is a EA/PA.<p>In order to communicate effectively on the MB board it's somewhat important to use the proper and accurate acronyms.<p>Thanks,
Jo</strong><hr></blockquote><p>OK then, my situation is as you describe.

The only way through withdrawal is no contact. As Dr. Harley says, every time you have contact with the OP, no matter how insignificant, the clock is set back to zero. You will remain in withdrawal as long as contact occurs, whether "as friends only" (and we all know what that means) or just passing on the street.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:
<strong>I do know this: If I had told my wife about how I felt when I was in the midst of those painful feelings it would have been cruel to her and all involved.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You know nothing of the sort. WE ARE SPEAKING WITH YOUR WIFE'S VOICE!!!!! We have all walked in your W's shoes. We have all stood where she is standing. That gives us way more credibility to speak for her on this issue than it gives you whether you want to recognize that or not.<p>It is your DECEPTION and BETRAYAL which is cruel. The truth is not cruel, and if you insist on using that terminology: Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>To have told my wife at that moment would have made me feel like I had someone to carry my burden, but how selfish to inflict it on her.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>As I said before, you do not fool me. Calling selfishness selflessness will not make it so.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Someone mentioned that you can not have a relationship where lies are involved.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>No one here mentioned that. I believe everyone here told you that you are welcome to have the R you obviously want to have--one based on lies and illusion. We will continue, however, to warn you of the consequences of your choice.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
1. Any relationship is based, to some degree, on not always telling the truth. A man does not mention that his wife is gaining weight and he finds it a bit unappealing. A woman does not mention that her husband is going bald and she does not find him as attractive.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Granted, most relationships are like this. HOWEVER, this is MB, and we are learning a NEW way to relate that includes RADICAL HONESTY.<p>Which is preferable--a H who tells his W the truth about her weight gain so she can DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT or a H who keeps it to himself until he withdraws from her completely and has an A or leaves the M? Which is preferable--A W who tells her H she likes him better with hair so he can DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT or a W who keeps him in the dark until she withdraws from him and has an A or leaves the M?<p>There are all types of relationships. Those of us here trying to embrace the MB concepts are trying to have a M based on reality, maturity, equality, respect--an AFFAIR-PROOF M. We want a M based on the rules of honesty, care, protection, and time and the policy of joint agreement.<p>If you do not want a M based upon those principles and concepts, you certainly don't have to, but if you prevent your W the same choice, then you have no integrity and are a thief robbing her of her integrity. Have you given her an opportunity to sign this marital contract YOU decreed?<p>You already violated the original marital contract. You have no right to unilaterally draft and decree a new one. Your W has the same right to negotiate a new contract as you do. I hope you're not one of those people sporting the American flag all over the place when you probably have never even read the 13th amendment. Do you believe in freedom, or are you a tyrant?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
2. During sex, everyone experiences fantasies best left unspoken. And if you say you have no fantasies, or you tell ALL of them, you are a liar. Does everyone tell their spouse everytime they masterbate? No </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Wrong-o again! You have no clue as to what you are missing here. Once again, differentiated individuals are able to share all, yes ALL, of their fantasies with their spouse, and then they BOTH get to enjoy them. Not only that, we get to do all our masturbation WITH each other, so we already know because we are both there. All I can do here is feel sorry for you for being so fearful that you want to remain in the infancy of your sexual development. You are missing the time of your life and will continue to do so as long as you let fear control your life.<p>I'll tell you one thing, MM, your lack of insight and integrity has provided a wonderful contrast that enables me to see my H as a strong, loving, honorable man once again, and so you're at least helping MY M. Too bad you don't find your own M worthy of the same potential. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Say Conqueror,<p>I'm in awe .... a notable post if I ever read one.<p>I'm not Worthy ....<p>Jo

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>It's plain wrong and not what this site is about.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>If you read all of MM's threads, you will see that we have been trying to communicate the merits of Dr. Harley's (the website owner's) marriage building concepts (the purpose of this website), one of which is the Rule of Radical Honesty. We have been trying to communicate to him his W's need to know in order to be an equal partner in their M and the advantages of HIM telling her. To my knowledge, no one here has threatened to tell his W themselves.<p>We all want her to know because we have EMPATHY for her, having walked in her shoes, and we have the same empathy for your H, who has no idea who he is married to. It takes courage to stand up and say, "This is me--the good, the bad, and the ugly.", but who do you want your H to love--you or your mask? We are trying to convey to you the benefits of being courageous in your primary R and the morality of being true to your spouse and giving them the gift of honesty and dignity.<p>Go to the top of this page and click on the word "Concepts", and there you will find answers directly from Dr. Harley to all the questions you posed, and you will understand why we are saying what we are saying. We believe in the MB concepts because we have lived them and know what they are, both in theory and in practice. We have done all the hard work and continue to fight the real battle, which is within ourselves.<p>IOW, we are not talking out our a$$es. Dr. Harley has been doing this work for 3 decades now, I believe, and he has helped thousands of couples rebuild their M after infidelity. There is a reason why MB is the #1 site for infidelity. It is because the MB principles WORK. We've all been in the trenches as either BS or WS, and some of us are even in the Promised Land. It is your choice whether you listen to Dr. Harley and/or us or not. But we do know what you are sowing and what you are likely to reap if you continue.<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

This thread is interesting.
If you believe that your husband shares ALL of his fantasies with you, you are kidding yourself. I will give you a couple examples:<p>PHYSICAL:
1. A lot of men are interested in having two women at once, or in swinging. How many men would truly tell their wives that? They might share a bit of the fantasy, but never admit that it is something they really want.<p>2. Look at all the various chat rooms on here, especially the married men for other married men. How many men are sharing that fantasy with their wives?<p>3. The huge number of escort services and massage parlors around this country. Where are those customers coming from? And I bet they are not telling their wives.<p>I don't think men, as a rule, are as apt to become involved emotionally. I was, and I believe it very painfull..<p>I believe in honesty, but the I would not tell my wife that she is gaining weight and that makes her unappealing. It would be up to ME to figure out why that weight gain is making ME feel that way, and then to change MY attitude.

mm,
Have you read this? If not, please do. I think you'll find it interesting... ? <p>Trueheart's letter to WS<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:
<strong>This thread is interesting.
If you believe that your husband shares ALL of his fantasies with you, you are kidding yourself.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>As I keep trying to point out to you, MM, this is not about my H or controlling my H. You may be right that he doesn't share all his fantasies with me. You and I have no way of knowing because we are not mind-readers. But I know I share all of mine, and he LOVES it, and what he does share with me, we both enjoy.<p>When you are sexually confident, none of the stuff you mentioned is of any concern. Fantasies are just that--FANTASIES! When you have appropriate boundaries, fantasies are no threat. It is only for people like you with no boundaries that the fantasy becomes dangerous--to the individual and/or the M.<p>And DUH! The very stuff you mentioned makes my point. I said, "Granted, most relationships are like this."--hence the prevalence of the very things you mentioned. I personally prefer being one of the "Blessed Few" as Dr. Schnarch refers to us.<p>If you are satisfied with the sexual nursery, then by all means remain there. If it comforts you that so many other men are there with you, then feel comforted. I'll take electric sex graduate school any day over that. Have you ever had your W look deep into your eyes while she is orgasming? Have you ever looked into hers?<p>Take the course, then try to justify remaining in your infancy.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> I believe in honesty, but the I would not tell my wife that she is gaining weight and that makes her unappealing. It would be up to ME to figure out why that weight gain is making ME feel that way, and then to change MY attitude.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>First, learn what honesty means before you say you believe in it. Second, read what Dr. Harley says about the EN, Physical Attractiveness.<p>Your attempt to strike a righteous pose in regard to obesity does not mitigate your violations of the rules of honesty, care, protection, and time and the policy of Joint Agreement nor relieve you of your responsibility in regard to same.<p>Look, MM, I know this has been pointed out to you before and probably numerous times, but I'll chime in: The name of this website is MARRIAGE BUILDERS. The majority of us here embrace and do our best to live the MB concepts because we have found them valuable as an aid in the growth and improvement of ourselves as individuals and as a structure to rebuild our marriages upon. As such, we believe in them. We are converts. You may try and try and try, but you will keep running into this same brick wall.<p>You may be able to recruit some yes-men for your POV from among the neophytes and the confused, but the rest of us will still be here and you will hear the same party line about the MB concepts. If you don't want to join the party, you sure do not have to, but you are wasting your time trying to get us to validate your POV--just ain't gonna happen. We know too much. We've come too far. We are on the other side looking BACK at you.<p>If you don't want to walk through the portal of enlightenment, then don't, but WE'RE not going back into the darkness. We'll continue to offer you a helping hand into the light and do whatever we can to show you the way. We'll try to illuminate the path you're on that those of us have been on, but no matter how hard you pull, you won't be able to pull us all back through to join you.<p>We ended up here because we have been through trial by fire. Wimps are hard to find here at MB. We are not going to unlearn what we've had to learn the hard way just because MM "doesn't think" this or "doesn't believe" that. Yes, you present a challenge. Your very stubbornness means that you would probably be successful in applying the MB concepts to your M and your life. Maybe that's why we keep coming back and beating OUR heads against YOUR brick wall. We hope we see hope.<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong><p>I don't understand why you would tell your H now if you are still with OM? Wouldn't that ruin your relationship with OM?
Also, does your OM have a spouse? If so, what if your husband calls her? I don't think I can tell my husband once I'm through Withdrawal from my very intense EA. One because I am too ashamed and second he may call my OM wife and ruin his life. I don't want to hurt my OM in any way.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, it would. But I see all the confusion I'm creating with my H. I'm going through all of the motions described on this site at home--withdrawing from him, angry that I can't be with my OM, not even wanting my H to touch me. All I can think of right now is the next time I'll see my OM. But I do feel guilty and I realize that the emotional turmoil I'm inflicting on my H and myself is not worth the E/P affair. <p>Maybe it's best if I cut off my OM first, and then discuss with my H? I don't know. By the way, my OM is single and doesn't know my H.

Who will be best served by telling? Will my spouse be devestated beyond repair? If the marriage is going well, if you have returned to be a good spouse there is no earthly reason to tell. All it does is spread pain <p> I agree. I do regret the A but I refuse to
tell her just to get the guilt off my shoulders.

Only Human:
You said -- clearly -- what I have been trying to say.
Nice job.
I so agree

Weezy,<p>The best way to help yourself right now is to go to the top of the page and click on the Q&A link. There you will find the intro page to Dr. Harley's Q&A columns. On the left-hand side, the columns are listed by subject. Click on "How to Survive Infidelity". Part 2 of that section is called "How Should Affairs End?". There you will find Dr. Harley's answers to your question.<p>Also, in addition to reading everything about infidelity here on the website, Dr. Harley's book, Surviving An Affair, will give you the more in-depth, step-by-step help you and your H will need. I encourage you to order it.<p>In summary, for the best chance of rebuilding your M, these are the steps you should follow to end your A:<p>1. Reveal the A to your H and answer all of his questions honestly and openly.<p>2. Never see or communicate with the OM again. In SAA, Dr. Harley outlines the extraordinary precautions necessary to ensure this, and these your H can help you with. It begins with a short simple letter to the OM explaining that you love your H and are committed to rebuilding your M and because of that, it is necessary that you never see or communicate with him again. There is a sample letter in SAA that you can follow. You will need to share this letter with your H and get his approval before sending it. The rest of the extraordinary precautions are methods of accountability to help your H feel safe that you are following through on no contact with the OM.<p>3. Once a permanent separation from the OM takes place, you will need to get through the symptoms of withdrawal. The important thing to keep in mind is that every time there is ANY contact, the clock resets back to zero, and you have to start that painful process all over again. If you make a clean break and stick to it, you will usually start feeling better within about 3 weeks, and you will most likely get completely through it by the 3-6 month mark, if I remember correctly (read what Dr. Harley says about it to get the exact timeline in case I'm wrong).<p>I also recommend a book called Letting Go by Tracy Cabot and Zev Wanderer which is a behavioral therapy approach that helps to shorten the time of recovery from a lost love. It was a great help to me getting over my ex-H during my D, so I imagine it would also be helpful in this type of situation.<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>