Weezy,
What Conquerer says is right. Please take her advice. I am a FWS and there are many other FWS's here also. If you need support specifically from someone who has been in your shoes please don't hesitate to email me. My address is down below. Kim101 is also a good one to talk to. Believe me I know. She is also a FWS.<p>Finally, I know how you are feeling. Conquerer is right about the time frame. It has been 6 months for me and I feel wonderful today. You seem to have your heart in the right place. Tell your H and you will see how wonderful marriage can be.
1step

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by OnlyHuman:
<strong> I do regret the A but I refuse to
tell her just to get the guilt off my shoulders.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>There are a myriad of other reasons.<p>Dr. Harley:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation.<p>Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.<p>But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy.<p>It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simpling revealing the truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.<p>It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth.<p>It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed.<p>After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better.<hr></blockquote><p>Dr. Harley is the voice of experience. He has helped thousands of couples. We are the voice of experience--we are among the thousands of couples he has helped.<p>So far, you (Only, MM, CMiranda) have been on only one side of the equation and have seen only part of the whole. We have all stood where you and/or your spouse is standing. We have either been the dishonest WS or the unsuspecting BS. You do not know any more than we do about that. We know every single thing about that place where you are right now every bit as well as you.<p>HOWEVER, you have not stood where we are standing, so you cannot speak with authority about it. We can. We are either a now-honest WS or a BS now living in reality. We can speak with authority about what this other side looks like. You cannot. You can only assume and conjecture, and we will just keep telling you what we actually see, hear and feel. We have the basis for comparison that you do not have.<p>If you do not want to listen to the voice of experience, then don't. But one of us will always be here to shine the light of reality on the darkness of your illusions. We recognize your freedom of choice, but we will not pander to you nor validate your choice to keep your spouse chained to you by illusion.<p>Have you ever thought about what it would feel like to be CHOSEN by your spouse? To know what it feels like to have every part of you exposed and naked and raw and have another human being CHOOSE you--ALL of you? Don't you want to know how it feels to be really and truly loved? Some of us know that feeling. We're just trying to show you the way to it.<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Only Human-are you mm's twin? You both think that as long as YOU are happy, life's swell. Not so. You are living lies and forcing your spouse to do the same. That's incredibly selfish. Believe me, the pain when you find out years later like I did is MUCH MUCH worse. Maybe you can get a backbone and do the right thing? Yep, admission 'spreads pain' but not as much as compounding it with lies and that is exactly what you are doing. Good luck

I wish you well as you work towards the truth. I won't be posting for a while as it just frustrates me and I don't want to be sarcastic, not called for. Good luck

I certainly applaud those of you trying to get mm, only human, cm...et al to see the errors of their thinking.....by now it might be helpful to realize you are probably arguing with sociopaths...a sociopath has no capacity to understand anything but what keeps them safe....all these individuals rightly recognize that revealing the truth to the spouses they keep married to them by their lies may mean they may lose what they value....they clearly care nothing about the marriage or their spouse, anyone with any brains at all can understand the principles here, and how marriage cannot work with built in deception....<p>they DO understand folks, they just reject them cause they are not in their best interest....radical honesty is HOW you identify a sociopath, they cannot be honest, they can only act in their self-interest....and represent it as acting in someone elses best interest. There is no rational, or defensible argument for not telling a spouse you have betrayed them, you rob them of their humanity, and reduce them to property....your property, in bondage to you by your deception....That is why Dr. Harley specifically labeled ws who maintain the deception as DANGEROUS, they are killing their spouses, but they do not care...<p>only human...Who will be best served by telling?<p>snl...Your spouse, who can now protect themself from you.<p>oh...Will my spouse be devestated beyond repair?<p>snl...None of your business, it is their business, you have no status, you are the problem, you cannot be the gatekeeper too.<p>oh...If the marriage is going well, if you have returned to be a good spouse there is no earthly reason to tell. <p>snl...Says who? You the LIAR? You will find out how good it is going when you tell the truth, until then you have nothing, and murder your spouse a day at a time.<p>oh...All it does is spread pain I agree. I do regret the A but I refuse to tell her just to get the guilt off my shoulders. <p>snl...Nah, spoken like a true sociopath, you have no guilt, and that is what you seek to avoid with your lies.... The pain is allready spread, your marriage has cancer, your spouse is dieing they just don't know why, and they cannot take action to heal cause you won't tell em what's wrong.<p>mm...You said -- clearly -- what I have been trying to say.
Nice job.
I so agree <p>snl....kudos for saying it clearly...but why do you agree with marital murder? Oh.... that's right, I forgot you are the white knight saving your marriage, by stabbing your w in the back ....silly me....pardon me while I go throw up...you 3 are making me sick. <p>Sorry folks, I was trying to stay out of this thread, hoping maybe you could get through to these knuckleheads...but now it is clear they are not really confused, they know exactly what they are doing.....they just don't care about anyone but themselves....so I figured I would point out the obvious, and ask why waste any more time on these losers... regardless what anyone thinks about marriage/divorce or even infidelity there can be no argument re maintaining deception...Dr. Harley's argument is air tight, it is basic humanity 101, you cannot decieve someone without stealing their basic humanity...if you do so, you can only redeeem it, and restore them, with the truth....if you won't do that you are a despicable, dangerous human being, and all we can do is pray for the poor spouses married to these sociopaths....and hope their kids grow up to be nothing like them.<p>btw I am a wsh, I had no intentions of revealing many things, for some of the reasons you gave here...what does it accomplish, spare pain, blah blah blah....then I read Dr. Harley's argument, I recognized the truth it made, and kicking and screaming I told all the truth....was my w devastated? Yep. Did it help the marriage, probably not, made it worse....did it help her? I have asked her that, and as screwed up as things are, and as bad as she feels, she prefers knowing...why? Cause now she is in charge of her own life....not me. Sometimes I regret telling her, but then I realize the regret is for me, so I don't have to deal with her trauma.... I can't change anything, but I had the power to do one thing for sure, reconcille or not...I had the power to restore her dignity, her humanity, the right to know the truths of her own existence....I could at least do that, so can you.<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Conqueror and 1step,<p>Thanks for your advice. I am absolutely terrified about this next step. I've even considered just disappearing from this world somehow. But I realize that's not the answer, and will only inflict more pain on my H, my family, and friends, and my OM. I just can't believe I'm here, in this place, making this decision! <p>But I will do what I need to do to make things right. <p>Again thanks, and I'll keep you all posted.

Well, I can't remember all the names of the players here that don't feel it necessary to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth; so I'll direct my reply squarely at MMSA.<p>You are where I was. I asked all the same stupid qiestions of myself and figured; if I have resolved the problem myself; then my W doesn't need to know. I'll do what I have to do and be a better husband. And you know what happen next?<p>She cheated on me!!!!! I felt like my heart had been ripped right out of my chest and stuffed up my butt. I cannot put into words the amount of pain and agony that I felt when I found out my W had betrayed me. Why would my beloved W do such a terrible thing to me, especially after I had made all those psuedo changes in me? After all; I changed and lied to myself that our M was getting better. She didn't know about my A's. Yes plural. 2 of them. So why would she be drawn away by an OM. Because we were avoiding dealing with the problems in the M. Her's just happened, mine just happened. By now, you're thinking see, I don't want to cause my W that kind of pain; but; what if she turns the table on you and you find yourself being the BS next week? Most of the folks here are one or the other, BS or WS. I unfortunately am both. I don't even know if our M will survive. But I know this. Keeping my dirty little secrets from my W, saved her the pain in the short term and may have destryed my M in the long run. So if you're the sociopath the SnL suggests and you are trying to hold onto what matters only to you; you are already at risk for losing it. You are just refusing to see it.<p>There is something inheriently WRONG in your M. By not sharing this with your W you are hurting her and you and God forbid if you have any children. I am the poster boy for lying to his spouse. I have done things that I should have been thrown out in the street for; but yet; my dear W has decided SHE wants to try and save our M. And I have decided I want to try and save our M. We each crossed lines we promised not to cross. We will have to deal directly with God for those infractions. But we were fortunate enough to find MB for some answers about how to save our M.<p>You are erecting a barrier that your W cannot see. She does not what it is; but, she can feel it. As others have pointed out here - She is dying a slow death and she doesn't know why. I don't expect my words will lead you to tell the truth; others here are so much better at explaining the why's; but I will tell you this - Do NOT be surprised when your world comes crashing down and she rips your heart out first. You'll never see it coming and when you do; you'll wish you had listened to the folks here. I only wish I had found MB before we threw our lives into this awful quagmire!<p>This my friend is REALITY!!!<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: badger203 ]</p>

SNL,<p>You know I agree with everything you say and your assessment of this thread and the waste of time it is getting through to people who have no conscience.<p>However, I believe the thread still has value and what makes me tenacious is that I know there are people reading this thread like weezy who DO have a conscience and want to do the right thing for themselves and their loved ones. I do it for them. We all know how difficult it is when you are confused and trying to find your way, and I don't want the words of the conscienceless to stand alone without challenge.<p>There are those who are like we were, sincerely looking for answers and a way out of the mire. How sad it would be if they only saw an exchange between MM and OnlyHuman.<p>Plus, like I said, they have single-handedly made deposits in MY H's account in my LB$ by providing a contrast that makes him look like a knight in shining armor in comparison! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Maybe it will help others like me to see their cups as half-full rather than half-empty because what a graphic illustration this thread is of "it could be worse".<p>Weezy,<p>It's normal to be frightened. Believe me, we've all felt that icy fist of fear squeezing the life out of our hearts. But please do not think you in any way need to "leave this world". You have made some regrettable choices, but you yourself are not irredeemable. You are a soul of infinite value. Why else is there this agonizing battle for your soul? You matter. You will find valuable friends here who have walked in your shoes and can hold your hand and give you the courage to do what you want and need to do.<p>While I have not been a WS, all of us BS have paralyzing fear as well. What I did and what may be helpful to you is when I realized I was in totally unfamiliar territory (dealing with infidelity), I did what you are doing. I looked for help, and I found it here. When I couldn't see which way to go or what to do, I asked. When I couldn't trust my H, I trusted my MB friends farther down the road than I was. Sometimes you have to step out in faith without knowing whether there's going to be solid ground underneath you.<p>If you're like most of us, you will find a strength you didn't know you had. You will discover that you can CREATE that solid ground you need to stand on. You will get through it. You will grow. And then you'll be able to help someone else someday. Your life has value.<p>Badger,<p>I guess we could call yours the voice of experience SQUARED!!!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Wow, what a story. Too bad you had to live it instead of read it, huh? [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] But definitely better to find MB late rather than never. I hope you and your W have success in rebuilding your M. It's a hard road, but now at least you're on it.<p>[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Good point conquerer, by providing a stark contreast between those who walk the walk, and those who only talk the talk, maybe a few more lives (in not marriages) will be saved.....one thing is for sure, nothing good happens until the truth is revealed.<p>[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Conqueror , SNL and Maggierose,
I have walked in the bs shoes, I was in that situation for over a year. I know the pain an A causes. I do appreciate you taking the time trying to help , and yes, it's a poor excuse I
have for not telling but I have to go with it right now.

Maggierose,
please don't stop giving advice because of anything I have said. I don't want to ever have
another affair and put my family through hell
again. I don't want to have any contact with ow
as long as I live.

oh....it's a poor excuse I have for not telling but I have to go with it right now.<p>snl...??? I really don't have a good reason to kill you (spouse), but I have to go with stabbing you in the back right now.....<p>Is someone holding a gun to your head OH? Who is making you HAVE to not tell? This takes no effort at all, it is very simple....<p>Spouse, I have something to tell you, something you need to know about my behaviour, I suspect you will be very upset about it, and will affect our marital relationship.....I don't think it is any longer an issue, and I want very much to keep making our marriage work....would prefer I simply keep this to myself, or do you want to know??<p>Now how hard is that OH? If you can't say it, write it down and give it to her. I suspect your um...."difficulty" is all about YOU, not wanting to deal with the fallout, the anger, the hurt, the accusations, whatever....you say you were a bs, ya know, I buess betrayal is bad, but it is understandable, people have feelings, stuff happens, and maybe a heart is broken, maybe not, but at least the ws was doing something about THEMSELF. Decieveing the bs is a whole nother ballgame, keeping them ignorant with the lie is far worse than any betrayal...you haven't broken their heart, you have stolen it, and their humanity, for your own purpose....it is the most despicable, aggressive thing a human being can do to another, keep them ignorant of the truths they need to order their lives, to bind them to you through your deceptions.... If you won't tell her, then you should do her the courtesy of immediately divorcing her, so she is free to find a mate who will not imprison her with lies. How can you do this, and not be a sociopath?<p>OH...I don't want to ever have another affair and put my family through hell.<p>snl...This is the part you don't get...you are putting your family through hell everyday for the rest of their lives UNTIL you tell....everyday the poison in you seeps into the fabric of their existence, and permeates the psyche of who your kids will grow up to be.....YOU CANNOT ESCAPE, life does not work that way, you are killing them everyday with the slow death of deception, you are emotionally crippling your family FOREVER. If you won't protect them, at least do the right thing, and leave them, so they won't be poisoned by you.<p>[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

I still have to disagree with the idea of telling a spouse about an affair that is over, and in which he WS has worked out he reasons why it happened.<p>If it happened because of something the spouse did/does, then it makes sense to tell because the situation will not change.<p>But if the affair happened because of something internal in the WS, and that has changed, then there is no reason to tell. <p>The idea of being a sociopath is absurd, by the way. I've dealt with those people and you can put them on a lie detector and they will not register. <p>I can see us being called narcisstic -- interested in our own well being --- but a sociopath has no concious. I would argue that I do have a concious. I don't want to hurt my wife with information about something that is over.<p>For example, my friend, the one I was so worked up over -- we haven't talked in person in two weeks. <p>Why would I bring it up now -- when it was something flawed within me.<p>And, finally, I just don't buy the notion that all the WS are practicing this total, radical honesty.<p>Maybe to some degree, but we all hide in the shadows. I noticed another post on a different thread in which the person also admittted having trouble with the brutal honesty bit

Applause for Conqueror!!<p>I will try bashing my head against this wall as well.<p>Just once -- as I have the perspective you are talking about.<p>I was a BS who didn't know she was a BS for 16 years. <p>My H elected not to tell me of his A -- for all the reasons you have said. It would cause me needless pain, it was over, it would never happen again, and he learned from it and wanted to return to our relatively happy marriage as a better man who learned his lesson.<p>So we lived happily ever after right?
No. We never had true intimacy. H withdrew from our marriage (I believe from the guilt) Not in horrible terrible ways. He was still around physically. Did all the right things for his children and our extended family and friends.
But he withdrew from ME -- from US as a couple.
He couldn't look in my eyes and share who he was. He couldn't let me know the real him.<p>And the end result was me withdrawing as well. That led to my own unhappy mistake of having an affair. So very shortly we will be divorced.<p>And I will probably never share with him the anger that I feel towards him for allowing me to live 16 years of my life as a LIE. For allowing me to make decisions based on the unreality that he gave me. My life could have been so different if he had given me the gift of the truth, and given me the gift of HIMSELF. <p>Its cowardly to think so little of your spouse that you hold this away from them. And I don't think I need to expand much on the selfishness of the act.<p>I have no respect for anyone that holds the view that the spouse has no right to know.

let me throw my twist on this as well.<p>My WW had the A pre marriage kept is a secret because she though t once she ended it and married me , "eveything would be better"<p>If I had known who she had become I would have seriously rethought marrying her. In a marriage or any relationship BOTH people need to know all the facts.<p>A marriage is in a sense an agreement. What kind of agreement do people have if one person has no clue what the hell they are agreeing to?<p>Do you not think the BS has the right to know who the person they are married to? I certainly wish I did.<p>Even in recovery or attempted recovery. Why lie about it? I just dont really understand it.<p>Look I was crushed to find out about the A. What hurt the most is that I had to find out myself. Offer your feelings. Give her a chance to try to trust.<p>get some damn gonads.<p>-HI

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>And, finally, I just don't buy the notion that all the WS are practicing this total, radical honesty.<p>Maybe to some degree,but we all hide in the shadows <hr></blockquote> <p>Not ALL of us, mm, only those that have something shameful to hide. Please do not project your warped sense of morality on the rest of us who DO NOT hide in the shadows.<p>Estes

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:
<strong>I still have to disagree with the idea of telling a spouse about an affair that is over, and in which he WS has worked out he reasons why it happened.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You may disagree all you like, and we will continue to expose the fallacies in your arguments with the proven efficacy of the MB principles and concepts.<p>Dr. Harley:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The purpose of the Marriage Builders website is to help you create and implement a plan to resolve your conflicts in a way that will restore and sustain your love for each other. While many of my suggestions run counter to intuition, hundreds of thousands of couples have found that they work if they are willing to create a plan using my Basic Concepts [link above]<hr></blockquote><p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>If it happened because of something the spouse did/does, then it makes sense to tell because the situation will not change.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>It happens because the WS fails to follow the rules of protection and honesty and the policy of joint agreement.<p>The Rule of Protection: Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.<p>The Rule of Honesty: Be completely honest with your spouse.<p>The Policy of Joint Agreement: Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.<p>From A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts [link above]:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Basic Concept #6: The Policy of Radical Honesty<p>It isn't easy to be honest. Honesty is an unpopular value these days, and most couples have not made this commitment to each other. Many marriage couselors and clergymen argue that honesty is not always the best policy. They believe that it's cruel to disclose past indiscretions and it's selfish to make such disclosures. While it makes you feel better to get a mistake off your chest, it causes your partner to suffer. So, they argue, the truly caring thing to do is to lie about your mistakes or at least keep them tucked away.<p>And if it's compassionate to lie about sins of the past, why isn't it also compassionate to lie about sins of the present--or future? To my way of thinking, it's like letting the proverbial camel's nose under the tent. Eventually you will be dining with the camel. Either honesty is always right, or you'll always have an excuse for being dishonest.<p>To help remind couples how important honesty is in marriage, I have written the Policy of Radical Honesty: Reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know, your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities, and plans for the future.<p>Self-imposed honesty with your spouse is essential to your marriage's safety and success. Honesty will not only bring you closer to each other emotionally, it will also prevent the creation of destructive habits that are kept secret from your partner.<p>The Policy of Radical Honesty combined with the Policy of Joint Agreement are two guidelines that will help you create an open and integrated lifestyle, one that will guarantee your love for each other. They also prevent the creation of a secret second life where infidelity, the greatest threat to your marriage, can grow like mold in a damp, dark cellar.<hr></blockquote><p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>But if the affair happened because of something internal in the WS, and that has changed, then there is no reason to tell. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>The A happened because of the violations listed above by the WS, i.e. "something internal in the WS". What has changed if you are still willing to violate the rule of protection, the rule of honesty, and the policy of joint agreement?<p>Has your W been given a choice as to whether she would like a M based upon these concepts? If she was given the choice, which do you think she would choose? Why are you so frightened to give her a choice? I challenge you to print out Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts from this website and ask your W if she would like a M like that. I challenge you to free your slave. Why are you so afraid she won't CHOOSE you?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>The idea of being a sociopath is absurd, by the way. I've dealt with those people and you can put them on a lie detector and they will not register. <p>I can see us being called narcisstic -- interested in our own well being --- but a sociopath has no concious. I would argue that I do have a concious.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>For those interested, from Dr. Hare's Psychopathy Check List-Revised:<p>

• Glib and superficial charm
• Grandiose self-worth
• Need for stimulation or proneness to boredom
• Pathological lying
• Conning and manipulativeness
• Lack of remorse or guilt
• Shallow affect
• Callousness and lack of empathy
• Parasitic lifestyle
• Poor behavioral controls
• Promiscuous sexual behavior
• Early behavior problems
• Lack of realistic, long-term goals
• Impulsivity
• Irresponsibility
• Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
• Many short-term marital relationships
• Juvenile delinquency
• Revocation of condition release
• Criminal versatility

<p>Dr. Hare is the author of the book Without Conscience. Psychologists prefer the term psychopath. Sociologists prefer the term sociopath.<p>I am not qualified to clinically diagnose psychopathy/sociopathy. But I can challenge you to exercise your conscience if you have one.<p>I can challenge you to stop lying, conning, and manipulating your W. From what you've written about your situation, I can perceive your need for stimulation, lack of remorse, callousness and lack of empathy, parasitic lifestyle, poor behavioral controls, promiscuous sexual behavior as evidenced by multiple affairs, your lack of realistic goals (maintaining a dishonest M in the face of all the testimony and experience that has been shared with you), your impulsivity, irresponsibility and failure to accept responsibility for your own actions.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> I don't want to hurt my wife with information about something that is over.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Shackles and chains do hurt, whether they can be seen or not. It isn't over for your W. As Lexxxy and others have pointed out, your W has yet to discover that she has been living a lie and has had years of her life stolen from her under false pretenses. She is married to a man who fails to care for her, fails to protect her, lies to her, and keeps her enslaved.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Why would I bring it up now -- when it was something flawed within me.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Because the flaws are still there and will continue to be there until they are exposed, brought to the light of day, examined, and corrected within an open and honest marital environment.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>And, finally, I just don't buy the notion that all the WS are practicing this total, radical honesty.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Why don't you point us to where anyone said all WS are practicing Radical Honesty? Isn't it interesting how you set up a false assumption against which to make your argument. You, yourself, prove that not all WS practice Radical Honesty. From that alone it is obvious no one has that "notion".<p>What Dr. Harley is saying is that the Policy of Radical Honesty provides the best foundation on which to build a M and is one of the tools which facilitates marital recovery after infidelity, the use of which will enhance the possibility of a successful outcome.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Maybe to some degree, but we all hide in the shadows. I noticed another post on a different thread in which the person also admittted having trouble with the brutal honesty bit</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yet another feint with a false implication. No one here is advocating brutality, but if you want to make the argument about brutality, then we have already demonstrated how brutal your choices are to an unsuspecting spouse. I consider stealing years from a person's life and stealing their dignity an act of brutality every bit as pain-inflicting as any act of physical violence. Whether you are a physical predator or an emotional predator, a predator is a predator.<p>As Dr. Harley said, quoted above: "It isn't easy to be honest." "Having trouble" with a realistic and honorable goal is an indication of normalcy. A policy or principle is a guideline to follow and is an absolute and constant. We are human beings, and we are fluctuant, which is the exact reason we need the constancy of principles to control our behavior so that we do not hurt ourselves or others.<p>"But everybody else is doing it" is a juvenile attempt at justification. As parents have said for years, "If everyone was jumping off a bridge, would that make it right?" There is a process some human beings go through, where they examine behavioral alternatives with insight and judgment, chart their own course, walk on their own two feet, recognize that the world does not revolve around them, and recognize and uphold the rights of others equally with their own.<p>This magical process is called: GROWING UP! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] And it is highly recommended.<p>Just in case anyone was wondering--<p>Article XIII, Section 1 of the Constitution of the United States of America:<p>Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.<p>And more food for thought:<p>Didn't some of the people at Jonestown believe they were drinking Kool-Aid?<p>[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

The following are direct quotes from Torn Asunder by Dave Carder:<p>"Once the infidel and partner reveal their mutual attraction, I've found that the development of the sexual aspect to the relationship is ajust a matter of time."<p>"Even though intercourse might not occur in the affair, every touch and glance can be highly charged with emotion. Highly erotic feelings can be exchanged in mere eye contact and nonsexual touch-even in a handshake. It is exactly those feelings that make affairs so special."<p>"Most spouSes, upon disclosure of the affair, desperatley want to know, "Did sex occur?" The issue of intercourse is aLmost irrelevant, however, when it comes to gauging the level of emotional involvement. It's the emotional involvement that the infidel must recover from in a Class II affair. SEX USUALLY DOES BECOME A PART OF THIS EMOTIONAL INVOLVEMENT SIMPLY BECAUSE IT BECOMES TOO DIFFICULT FOR COUPLES TO NOT CONSUMMATE THEIR INTENSE FEELINGS OF ATTACHMENT."

Maggie:
Interesting excerpt, but I disagree -- at least in my case. My OW friend never shared what was in her heart with me, and that allowed those embers to die out. <p>I have a feeling when we do meet again in person that the handshake, etc. will not be so highly charged.<p>And I disagree that such relatoinships end with sex.<p>Mine didn't

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:
<strong>And I disagree that such relatoinships end with sex.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Once again you are disagreeing with yourself by setting up a conflict between yourself and a false construct and by that apparatus trying to negate the Carder quote.<p>Mr. Carder did not say that "such relationships end with sex". He said, "SEX USUALLY DOES BECOME A PART OF THIS EMOTIONAL INVOLVEMENT....." What part of the word 'usually' do you not understand?<p>Regardless, the main point Mr. Carder is making is that infidelity is infidelity in whatever form it is manifested in any given case. And many of us have given you the criteria for determining that in your own particular case--consulting your W about it, which you have so far refused to do.<p>[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

... but the likelyhood is still there-- because it is still a 'secret.'<p>It is still your secret... tucked away somewhere... it may die on its own... it may not...<p>But it is there... creating a wall between you and your wife... a distance she doesn't understand, and can't until you tell her...<p>I don't advocate 'dumping' the info on her... but I think you must make a plan to tell her... <p>She can't fix what she doesn't know is broken... <p>...and as long as it remains a secret... the likelyhood of you and TOW getting together remains... YOU CANNOT PREDICT what may or may not happen. My H WOULD HAVE SWORN that he was safe... that HE would never cheat on me... <p>You don't know where your head and emotions will lead you... you can't know about hers... <p>I know because it happened to me... and, oh, how I wish my H had shared that he was attracted to OW so that we could deal w/ the whys then before the A instead of now... after the A...<p>Cali