I want to do this face to face because I need to overcome my fears, stop avoiding necessary conflict, and learn better communication skills; also because of H's conflict avoidance technique he's displayed in the past of ignoring what I write. So this is my attempt to organize my thoughts along with an invitation to my favorite "experts" to give me feedback and help me with it:<p>Do you know what yesterday was? (My assumption is that he doesn't.) Well, it was the 6th anniversary of D-day, so it was a difficult day for me. I've recently been evaluating where I am now compared to back then in regard to my personal goals and my goals for our R, and I'm both encouraged and discouraged.<p>I'm encouraged that I have had the strength to make it this far without falling apart completely. As you know, of all the painful events of my life, this has been the MOST painful, so I consider it a small miracle that I have withstood it so far.<p>My evaluation helped me face my most recent period of backsliding, especially in time management and eating habits. I have taken steps to correct that, and I have found a new determination to stay on track. I'm sorry for dropping the ball on things that have negatively impacted you, and I appreciate the patience you have displayed in waiting for me to "come to myself" even in the face of any anger or frustration you may have been feeling.<p>I have also appreciated your attentiveness, affection, tenderness, and passion, and especially over the last couple of months the way you have maintained the line of respect that is so essential to me. It has really helped me to keep standing, and I hope we can continue to remain connected and hopefully deepen that connection.<p>I have had to face, though, that your A still controls my life and defines me, and I hate that. I wake up with it, I work with it, I eat with it, I watch TV with it, I have sex with it, I go to sleep with it, and even in my dreams I can't escape from it. I want to do whatever can be done to change that. I want my life back.<p>I still need everything I told you on D-day was necessary for recovery. We still need to do all the hard work I described to you. I need the extraordinary precautions.<p>I need for you to answer all my questions until I have no more questions. I need to express my anger to you until I have no more anger. I need to be able to express my sorrow and dismay and know that you will comfort me.<p>I need for you to walk me through it. I need for you to go with me to face every location until it no longer has the power to hurt me. I need to know EVERYTHING, including what was really going on after D-day as well.<p>I propose we spend at least an hour a week on this. When would be a good time?<p>--------------------------------------<p>I wanted to add this, but I thought it might be too much:<p>I have not done a very good job of pursuing this with you because in the past, when your responses didn't meet my expectations, I would get so hurt and angry and outraged I feared I would give up and want out. But more and more I'm realizing that no matter what happens, there is only one way to get through this, and that is to go THROUGH it.<p>And even if I have to take you kicking and screaming and drag you through it with me, I'm going to because you have permanently and irretrievably altered the course of my life and forced me onto this road, and it is your responsibility to travel it with me. There is no rug big enough to sweep this under, and there are no free passes.

Hi,
Im reading the How to say it for couples book, trying to work on these same issues myself.<p>I didnt quite understand if you are going to say this or write it, but They recommend a soft start. your start sounds rather confrontational and may put him on the defensive right away.<p>Maybe something about how hard this is for you and how you are trying to say it right, but you are learning new ways to communicate.

dear conqueror- i think addressing this will be good. you know what is best for you. i felt what you said, about going THROUGH it. same here.good luck.<p>our elephant kicked husband in the head this weekend- read the post.

Conq, good up until the point where you stray from the POJA. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Don't offer a suggestion yet. Give your H time to take this all in, and understand, then the TWO of you brainstorm options on how to address it, then pick an option that works for both of you. Don't paint him into a corner before he has a chance to understand and respond.<p>I would leave out that last two paragraphs as well. If he asks "why now?", tell him you were afraid (which is the truth) and leave it at that.

Conqueror (dont you hate to see my posts come up?)
Perfect.
I agree with Mr. Bunky.
One thing I might add. No matter how sweet you say your hurting, he will hear "I am blaming you, its all your fault, you are slime"
One thing that helped me and H. I told him I am sorry you have to help me through this. This is what you need to: when I am having a bad day dont take it personal, rub my hair back and say Its all gonna be ok, I promise, better than before.
The first few times he rolled his eyes and was sarcastic rubbed my hair like a doggy and in a monotone voice said his "lines". You see in a wierd way even if it wasnt real it FELT real.
Then something neat happened, he started believing it and so did I.
He didnt know how to comfort me I had to tell him.
I also think a big stumbling block for you is that your H has not told all. How can you get over it if you dont know what IT is.
Good luck, let it sink in a while before you think it didnt work.

Thank you all. I'm still trying to work up the courage.<p>Lora,<p>I'm planning on saying it face to face because this is the hardest thing for me to do and he can't as easily throw it away as he has when I've written it. I can see where I can just leave the first two paragraphs out since they're not all that relevant to him and just start with my apology for backsliding and recognizing that he hasn't nagged me or denigrated me, which is a HUGE accomplishment on his part.<p>Nikko,<p>I did read your "kick" post yesterday. Kind of sounds like a phase my H went through, but that was back in October, the honeymoon phase where he realized he had another chance at me, I guess. We went to Retrouvaille and he exposed all kinds of his inner stuff to me that he claimed he never told anyone before. I don't want to be a downer, but he's gone through several unpleasant stages since then. Hopefully our situations aren't THAT parallel. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Bunky,<p>Yep, I definitely was heading to the corner with my paintbrush. I mainly was trying to convey that there is no escape from facing me and my "stuff" resulting from his A, that I am going to start exposing it to him regardless of his reaction to it. It was more of a notice to him that his intimidation tactics, ridicule, exasperation, or whatever he pulls out of his bag of tricks to avoid facing me and the natural consequences of his actions, will not deter me from asking the questions I need to ask or expressing the things I need to express.<p>Of course, he always has the option of refusing to answer or ignoring me or raging at me or leaving me, but I'm no longer going to make this easy for him by keeping my stuff bottled up inside.<p>So, I'll just do a simple statement delineating my needs, and leave it to him whether he wants to meet them or not. And instead of talking about it or putting him on notice about my determination, I'll just stay on course after giving him that period of digestion you suggest and start asking my questions and saying what I want to say. He'll eventually get the picture that I'm not going to stop asking or talking about it until I'm satisfied.<p>SP,<p>I love your posts, but I just have a hard time sometimes zeroing in on what is so obvious to you. Know I SHOULD see it, so I definitely need your glasses. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Slap them on my face anytime. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I cannot find it in me, however, to apologize to him about any of this. All of this, every single bit of it, was his choice. Not only the A and its sequelae, but also these last six months. He asked ME to take him back. I told him on D-day exactly what recovery entailed and what would be necessary in order to avoid getting "stuck".<p>I laid it all out in graphic detail, and he agreed to do it, and then over and over and over he refused to follow through on honesty, disclosure and no contact, no matter how many times I told him that there would be no moving forward and no commitment from me without all of this.<p>Then, when I finally gave up back in January, I gave him the same choice I gave him on D-day: Following a viable plan of recovery or separation. He chose recovery, and once again I didn't leave out anything as far as my definition of that and what my expectations were.<p>If there is anything I should apologize for, it's not following through myself after he dropped the ball when I placed it firmly in his court. Maybe I should have gone back to executing Plan B or at least kept it all out on the table instead of bottling it up inside of me and waiting for him to do something. So, I might have some culpability for contributing to the appearance that he was going to get to pass GO and get his $200 without doing the hard stuff, but that and the backsliding I was planning to apologize for are all I can get myself to feel responsible for.<p>He went into that A KNOWING that it would result in never being with me again, so he was obviously content with that and I was, too. But then he changed his mind, and it was his choice to try to stay married to someone he did this to. He could have stayed with her or found someone new. But he chose me, knowing how I feel about this act, how abominable I believe it is, and how angry and victimized I feel.<p>I even told him that every other man in the world, INCLUDING MY EX-HUSBAND FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE!!!!, is more attractive to me than he is because none of them has done this horrible thing to me (my ex-H didn't have a history of being a BS himself when he did it to me, but this H does).<p>I told him it would take building a whole new R and not only doing all the A recovery stuff, but correcting all the pre-A deficits in the M before I would even be able to assess whether I'd be able to remain in this R or not, so I have been very candid, radically honest, about that except for these last 2 months. I do not NEED this M and sometimes I don't even WANT it even in the short-term. If he had had this history when I met him, I never would have married him, and he knows that.<p>The only reason he has his foot in the door now is because I'm stuck with him for the rest of my life anyway because I had children with him. But so far, he is showing me nothing to build a lifetime R on. I have nothing to lose if this is too much for him because I've already lost everything. It's only my children who stand to lose, and that is enough for me to sacrifice my hopes of something better, at least for awhile.<p>And I don't really know what may happen in the future. Even though it feels now that I will never feel what I felt for him before, there is really no way to know how my feelings might change if he were to change.<p>Too much rambling, so in summary, considering that I am taking responsibility for my Plan A stuff, I'm not going to be apologetic for his choice to remain married to me, because the cage door has been open for a long time, and I even tried to kick him out, and he refused to go. He doesn't HAVE to do any of this, never did.<p>LOL, I went so far off on that tangent, I forgot to mention the scripting stuff. Made me laugh because I've done the exact same thing pre-A. I'd say, no, I need to you say this, come on, say it, and he'd do the same eye-rolling da-da-da-da recitation, and you're right, for some reason even if their heart isn't in it, in some way it is because they go ahead and do it. Funny, huh? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

I'm praying for strength for you to do this. I tried and tried the last two days, and I can't, so I will have to do mine in writing. <p>I'm having that same backsliding on time management and eating, and also exercise. May I borrow your stuff on <p>"I have had to face, though, that your A still controls my life and defines me, and I hate that. I wake up with it, I work with it, I eat with it, I watch TV with it, I have sex with it, I go to sleep with it, and even in my dreams I can't escape from it. I want to do whatever can be done to change that. I want my life back."<p>He, I think, just has his nice little compartments and does not understand how large the A looms in my life. You have expressed it very well. <p>Consider scheduling a treat (massage, haircut, movie, whatever is a treat for you) right after this, you will deserve it, no matter how well he responds.

C,
UH did I say appologize for the affair? I think not!!!
I said "I am sorry you have to help me through this" and that is true I wish someone else could have helped me through this. I wish he could have stepped away from his guilt and treated me like a friend who had been wounded.
My point was - when I say "I hurt" my H hears "you slime".
As for you being so blameless in all of this- maybe. But as Dr. Phil says "do you want to be right or happy"?
Your post sounded angry. Its ok you have every right to be angry. YOUR HUSBAND BETRAYED YOU. So did mine. It hurts really really bad. I used to think about it every second of every day, it kicked me in the chest, took away my breath. Now I think about it about every 5 minutes and its like a fly buzzing around my head, annoying.
I still hear "you will never get over this from time to time, and maybe its true, but Its a heck of a lot better than it was. My anger has changed.
Good luck
Lisa

Bgentle,<p>You're more than welcome to use any of my rants. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] That one is so true, huh? I, also, have not gathered enough courage to open up this dialogue. I've been thinking lately that it might be better to just start being more transparent when things come up in the ordinary course of events rather than make this grandiose "announcement".<p>IOW, just start DOING what I maybe should have been doing all along. When a question comes to mind, just ask it. When something hurts me, say, "Ouch". Eventually, everything I covered in this post will end up being addressed anyway, and it might even be easier for it to come out gradually.<p>Lisa,<p>I understood that you weren't referring to apologizing for the A. What I meant is that I'm not sorry that he has to help me or be a part of this process because he doesn't have to. I was more than willing to recover from his annilation of the M all by myself. It was he who wanted to change course, and I was willing to get into the boat and see where it took us to see if it was someplace I wanted to go.<p>And if my H hears "you slime" when I say "I hurt", that is not my responsibility either. He had the choice to avoid that completely--first by not doing a slimy thing in the first place and secondarily by not asking me for another chance.<p>I realize what you may mean is that I should be sensitive to how my pain affects him, and that is why in all this time I have never called him any derogatory names (though he has been sensitive enough to call me the B word AND the C word [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] ) and even the very few DRs (can only think of 2) I've said out loud have been borderline at worst.<p>I am definitely blameless in the A and his choices to be dishonest, manipulative, cruel, etc., during this last year. I have taken full responsibility and blame and, most important, ACTION regarding my choices that contributed to the deterioration of the M from wedding date to his emotional exit from the M. I will not take responsibility for the time period I was being deceived about our M because I was allowed no choice, at least as it may have affected him or the mock M--I have no culpability in that.<p>The general life choices I make are always my responsibility, and my usual MO is to take on more guilt than is rightfully mine, so that is why I'm learning to define these boundaries and only take on that which I actually own.<p>And you are right. I am extremely angry and rightfully so, and it has been pointed out to me that for someone like me, whose natural and historical tendency is to turn that anger inward in the form of depression, it is a step in the right direction to turn it outward, at least appropriate anger in the right direction.<p>So that's why I feel like I need to get this stuff out. And to Dr. Phil: I want to be right AND happy. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

I love you C.
Printing out your reply now so I can edit in the margins. Will get back to you. Too bad I dont know how to do that paste thing.
Later for sure
Your friend
Lisa