K's (God is in Control) thread about her 7-month mark got me thinking about this--her H does not hold himself accountable for anything he does, yet if she has the slightest stumble, such as raising her voice, he magnifies its significance and condemns her for it. This has been a theme of my M as well:<p>

• My H's 8 hours (more on weekends) per day of TV watching has no correlation whatsoever to my 1-2 hours of computer use--only my computer use is a waste of time.
• My participation in internet support groups is the moral and emotional equivalent to his EA/PA--just as much of an emotional and physical infidelity as far as he is concerned.
• My relationships as a single woman before meeting my H are equivalent to his R with the OW and her R with him. She is not culpable for being with a MM because "any of those guys could have been married for all you know". The fact that she continued the R after she discovered he was married is conveniently left out of this "logic".
• His giving me an STD and possibly exposing me and my nursing baby to AIDS and endangering our lives, is no different than when I had sex as a single woman in the 1980s.

<p>Okay, I know this kind of minimizing and rationalizing is typical, but in my case and possibly others, this was a feature of the M before the A as well so is not likely to disappear when the A fog does.<p>I'm just looking for ideas of how other people handle it. I've tried to logically explain how absurd these assertions are, and then I tried not talking about any R issues for 2 months, but I'm tired of keeping my feelings inside. So, I just wonder what a good response to such statements might be. In looking back at the ones above and the way I just let them slide for the most part, it is making me angry that I didn't stand up for myself and reality.<p>I know he's entitled to his opinion and can continue in these escapist fantasies, but I'd like some non-LB strategy for me to make it clear that I don't validate any of that nonsense so that when those come up, I at least can feel like I stood up for myself and didn't let myself down. Lots of conversations keeping coming back to me, and I feel like I wimped out so many times. I don't want to do that anymore.

Are theze examples actual things your spouse has said to you? What were his ideas before the affair? This seems like a case of a man looking for ways to justify anything and everything he does by comparison of things you do which are in reality not the same at all. Are you and/or he in counseling? I wish you luck hun.

Yep, those are actual ways he has defended himself when I would attempt accountability. The TV thing is that refuses to acknowledge how many hours a day he watches TV and simultaneously maximizes the amount of time I'm on the computer--2 hours=all day on his clock no matter what the computer timer says. When all else fails, he falls back on, "It's not the same thing."<p>And no counseling. Been there, done that. Think I've gotten the most I'm going to get out of therapy, at least as far as what is available to me. Can't afford MB unfortunately. As for him, he stood me up the last two times I set up marriage counseling, and since HE has no problem, he sees no need for IC for himself. So, I'm just forging my own trail. Working on my own stuff. Thanks for responding.

Try telling him that on xx/xx/xx (your wedding date), you chose him and only him for the rest of eternity as a spouse. Then ask him when he chose to totally commit to you. It obviously wasn't the same date. Maybe this will help with the "prior relationships" thingy. I haven't had to deal with this as I was a virgin when I got married. However, that makes me even angrier that he could venture out on me (although he did not have sex while in the A). After all I saved for him, he doesn't even find me worthy to be faithful to now. Talk about a LB!! I can't dwell on that one or I'll get all emotional.
[img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Just a thought.

Conqueror my H sounds so much like your's it's scary. He watches hours of tv too and complains if I'm online, when he's home, even just long enough to check email. He also says this board and my friends in chat (all females) are the same as an EA. My sex life prior to our relationship and marriage is also a topic of discontent with him. He knew I wasn't a virgin as I had a child from my short lived first marriage but that doesn't stop him from making remarks about what I "did with ALL those guys before me". You'd think I was a street walker to hear him talk about it but the list before him fits on 2 fingers.<p>As to how I handle it - I don't. I never respond to his comments about past sexual experiences and when he gripes about chat or boards I post on, I ignore it. I don't let him drag me through the wringer for such innocent things just so he can feel justified about what he did.<p>I see a counselor alone. After all I am the "crazy" one - just ask my former WH. He has refused marriage counseling for many years but recently he said I was the one who wouldn't go. It's almost funny how differently they see things. Maybe it's the Venus/Mars theory. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I don't have any advice although I wish I did. I just wanted you to know you aren't alone on these issues. I hope things work out for you. I know how frustrating it can be. Take care.

Gosh C, <p>I'm trying to think of a way you could refute this stuff without LB'ing...to heck with it...maybe what he needs is a big fat LB party right between the eyes followed with a "You want a M that is mature, equal and full of love..you'd better figure out a way to turn these attitudes around."<p>That kind of stuff really burns me, and it's doubly concerning as you say that was the attitude before the A.<p>The biggest problem being that you can't control or change him...but what on earth would motivate him?<p>I don't think it is wise to keep it inside....I used to do that and the subsequent resentment was pretty bad...<p>Hmmmmmmm...Well, there is no reason you can't state your views as pleasantly as possible and when he comes up with some of that garbage (sorry, couldn't help myself) simply say you don't agree.<p>Not the greatest advice..but you know what Conquerer..from what I can tell, you're a pretty level-headed person...I just don't think you need to take that.
T

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jamup:
<strong>Try telling him that on xx/xx/xx (your wedding date), you chose him and only him for the rest of eternity as a spouse. Then ask him when he chose to totally commit to you. It obviously wasn't the same date. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I LOVE this idea!!!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] This is perfect--makes a great point, and no LBs! Thanks jam!<p>Tiny,<p>I must have walked more streets than you because my list requires a second hand to count. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] All I know about my H's list is that it's in the triple digits, but of course, "that's different". [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] "It's just not the same."<p>Actually, I thought his promiscuity was a good thing, that he'd gotten all his yah-yahs out and was ready to settle down and knew what he wanted, blah, blah, blah. Bought it all. Especially since my first H endlessly verbally bludgeoned me for being with -1- guy prior to him, and that H was a virgin and ended up cheating on me. So I thought I was avoiding that combo this time around.<p>Yeah, I've done the ignore thing, too. Guess I'm just looking for something new so I feel more sane [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] I don't know, I'm just dissatisfied when I look back at some of these conversations and wish I had handled it differently somehow.<p>I have no expectations that anything I say will influence him or anything like that because unless I've grossly overrated his intelligence, deep down he knows how full of crap he is when he says this stuff. But I want to do something differently for me, so if it comes back to mind, I feel proud of what I did or said regardless of any effect or lack thereof it had on him. I think it sifts down to: I want to be proud of myself. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Twyla,<p>You went in the direction my mind went before I came back to check the thread--that I can just state MY perspective (well, mine and, oh, anybody's? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] ) and leave it at that, just so I won't feel like I validated any of his wacky stuff.<p>Your post also brought to mind Dr. Harley's column on Resentment and one of his suggested responses: "Do you love me? Do you want me to be in love with you and spend my life with you? Well, you're going about it the wrong way." It was something like that. I'll find it and refresh my memory.

Just a suggestion........<p>My H and I used to play this "one up" game too. I HATED it, yet I played along. You did this...yea, well you did this....oh yea well YOU DID THIS...blah blah blah Same thing with finances...I paid for this...well excuuuuse me but I paid for this!<p>Got us NOWHERE. Look deeper at the motivation for the comment. Could he be wanting to spend some time with you when he makes those comments? Try "playing the game" a different way. When he makes a comment about your internet, ask him what he'd rather have you do. If he actually answers...then get up and do something else more along the lines of what he says. Then the next time he's been at the TV an extended amount of time...tell him that you'd like him to do XX (fill in the blanks). If he growls and snarls....remind him that you did what he asked and are only expecting the same from him. Maybe then he can corrolate the two.<p>The BEST thing you two could do would be to start talking openly about what it is that would make you happier...instead of pointing out what makes you unhappy now. When my H wants some quality time he'll ask me how much longer I'm going to be at the computer. I'll give him a time frame...then I'll shorten it up as much as possible and go spend some time with him. Sometimes that time IS sitting in front of the TV. I'm just appreciative he still wants to spend time with me so I'm willing to give a little. And vice-versa, when I'm working on a big project and he knows I can't give that time...he comes in and sits down at his computer and plays games for a while. It's nice to have his company while I work.<p>It was described once to me as a dance...if you go this way he goes that way...etc etc. It requires two to keep dancing...so if you want to change the tune you have to start dancing a different way.<p>Good luck! I hope things get better for you!

Grrr...he's being a big man-baby. I would let him have it! Followed by a loving "I'm so sorry I LB'ed" apology afterwards, of course...

Hope,<p>I know exactly the dances you're talking about. Since D-day, I've been pretty good at not taking the bait. The last time one of these came up was the last time I asked for his help in recovering from his A and asked for the extraordinary precautions. He bristled at having to be accountable to me "like a little kid" and said he didn't want to be judged based on just 6 months of his life and dragged in my so-called wild time when I was single and how I didn't like being judged based on that 6 months of my life either, as if it was the same thing.<p>I could have pointed out that he was emotionally absent from the M a lot longer than 6 months, that I was single and he was married, yada, yada, but instead, I just went back to my original request, though I did quote his own words back to him that he said to our out-of-control adolescents just a couple years before: "You can spend your whole life building a reputation for honesty, but it only takes one lie to destroy what it took a lifetime to build." <p>TTF,<p>His mother has actually apologized to her daughter-in-laws for catering to her sons and creating that expectation in them.<p>And my H actually criticised my upbringing during the early stages after D-day and said that my mother had failed to teach me or show me by example how to pamper a man. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm sure my mother is just chastising herself all over the place for failing me in that department! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] If you knew my mother at all, you would be ROFLYAO like I almost did when I heard that.<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

YIKES! So...he's...um..SPOILED!!!!!!! My H and I both came from similiar yet VERY differnt backgrounds. The similarity was that we both had to fend for our own emotional needs. No one catered to us. I blew up this morning at my extrememly cranky toddler...he had to get up early after going to bed quite late and he was just SCREAMING because he didn't want to. I lost it...told him to quit that he was being ridiculous! Sounded just like my dad....I feel like a real heel now. He needed comfort and I gave him the GROW UP AND BE A MAN bs that my dad always gave me.<p>Anyway...it sounds like you really have it together. Men do tend to grow up later in life than women...but some never do! It sounds like he has some accountability issues to deal with. Hang in there!

Conqueror, Maybe some of his comments deserve a pat answer like I've mentioned on some threads before. What if you always say something like "WE can't change the past, but what we're really needing to deal with here is the present (or future depending on the conversation)." That way you aren't bowing down, but yet you are not allowing your discussion to be railroaded by this bringing up ancient history nonsense. Acknowledge his comment, but pass up the bait and redirect your own thoughts to the issue at hand. Don't allow the ancient history to become the issue. Then at a different time if you want to have an ancient history discussion - go for it. Just don't let it override more important pressing issues.

Wow Conqueror,<p>My H pulls the same crap...and that is what it is. He has always done it...and it doesn't do any good to bring up facts.<p>Somehow, I think it is their way of justiying their behavior--no matter how insane it sounds. To them--it makes perfect sense. It is weird.<p>I have never been able to figure out this mess. <p>One of the key ones my H did to me was to put in his interogatories that I had commited an act that was detrimental for our marriage. He was referring to an incident when a newly divorced man bought me a drink at a Christmas function that he had decided at the last minute not to go to. He insisted that I go anyway without him--which I didn't want to do(who wants to go to a Christmas formal without your spouse. Well, I went--this guy did flirt with me and bought me a drink. Of course, I find out years later--that this caused my H to have a one night stand--because I betrayed him.<p>Now in his interrogatories, he brings that up as marital infidelity....while he publically states that he had 4 other affairs. <p>According to him---I betrayed my marriage as bad as he did. Pretty sick isn't it?