<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:06 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Odile,<p>I'm sorry to hear that things have not been going well. I don't know what finally "woke my H up". I think that on the final D-day, I was very devastated and I showed it -- I was hysterical and crying and just a general mess. This is the complete opposite of the way I normally am. Actually, one of my H's complaints is that I am too logical and he gets sick of me always being right. I think when he saw me that way, it kind of shook him up -- not immediately, but after he had a few hours to think things through. He left and after a few hours called me and told me he still did love me. This was after he told me when he left that he realized he just didn't love me anymore.<p>Sometimes the WS needs a dose of reality. It his my H that he had really devastated me. Perhaps you should look into writing a Plan B letter and telling your H what you would like your M to be. Maybe you should give him some literature that talks about the elements of an A -- why an A can be emotional rather than physical. I found good information that describes this on www.dearpeggy.com. Good information on affairs and the recovery process. It is also good info for you to know what to expect.<p>The bottom line in all of this is that you need to do what makes you comfortable and if you can't be with him right now then that is a decision you have to make. I know while my H was away for 1 week, I felt better -- I didn't have the constant stress of him being there, worrying about what I said or did. But, I would probably have missed him if it had gone on for a long time. Also keep in mind that you are on an emotional rollercoaster. You might feel this way today and have a reversal tomorrow.<p>Just hang in there. Take one day at a time. You can set boundaries on what your M will be.<p>FHO

Odile,
Sorry, but I'm not very familiar with your story. Lemme take a stab here.<p>How has your Plan A been? You really don't want to go to Plan B without a good Plan A in place, unless you need to protect yourself from a serious situation (abuse, concrete evidence of an A, etc.)<p>Do you want to be married? Why are you telling your H that you don't love him anymore? If you don't, then why are you here at MB? If you want to truly save your marriage (no guarantees of course), you need to say only positive things about your marriage. <p>"I don't necessarily have romantic feelings for you these days, because of the A's, but I feel like we can learn to love each other, treat each other right, and get our marriage on track."<p>There's nothing wrong with setting some boundaries, and standing up for yourself. But lets get a better understanding of your Plan A efforts, how low your love bank is, and where to go next.<p>Is he willing to see a counselor? If so, then book that meeting, and go! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] The counselor will help you two communicate, and see where to go from here. THe counselor will also help H understand what an A is, and hopefully convince him to end them - if they really are affairs. The point is, if YOU are uncomfortable with the relationships with the OW, he should respect your feelings about that.<p>This may have been a reality check, indeed. DON'T expect anything miraculous from him. If he seems to feel differently now, take advantage of it, and get his AGREEMENT to take some steps.<p>Hope this helps a little. I could be way off track with your situation.

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Odile,<p>Glad that things are looking up. Sometimes the WS needs a jolt to wake them up. I think the IC will help your H. The C will help him to understand the an EA is still an A, even though it is not a PA. I know that was the feeling of both my H and my IC (2 different Cs).<p>Just continue to take things one day at a time -- you are still on the rollercoaster (I love that MB term, it is so accurately descriptive for the way one feels during this time). Some days you will be down in the dumps once you start recovery. But remember that there will be other days when things will be better than every, when your marriage seems better than it ever was and your H is wonderful.<p>Remember to do things that make you feel good. Hang in there. You're doing fine so far.<p>FHO

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:09 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Odile,<p>I'm so sorry that things are bad right now. I don't have the best advice in the world, but here goes -- just remember that this is from my very limited perspective.<p>When my H moved out, I personally felt better. It was a relief not to have to snoop anymore -- I also snooped to see what was going on. <p>It is kind of funny because my H is a computer programmer and takes care of all our computers -- including wireless network. He had a firewall set-up but I was able to circumvent it an install a keyboard recorder program on his computer. These programs are fantastic -- they record all keystrokes made on the computer and take a picture of the screen every few seconds. You can go back when you have access to the computer and it is like you were there with them at the time. When I finally told my H I had put the program on his computer -- after he moved back in -- he couldn't believe I could do it. He didn't think I was that smart. What I say is you should never underestimate anyone -- where there's a will, there's a way! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I do think it is disrespectful of your H to call you the "hacker". But this is also typical fogese. When my H found out I accessed his e-mail account (I cracked the password), he tried to use the invasion of privacy issue to deflect the conversation from the real issues -- his infidelity. One of the things I told my H (trying not to LB, but wanted him to understand) was that my behavior was a direct consequence of his betrayal. I never invaded his privacy prior to the A (which I discovered accidentally -- I was not snooping). After the discovery, I was obsessed with snooping.<p>The problem with snooping is that any information you find just continues to hurt you. Somehow, each time I snooped, I foolishly hoped that I wouldn't find anything -- that things were over. Of course, I was constantly disappointed. This hurts and my recommendation is that if you cannot handle the pain, don't snoop. Or perhaps just snoop at very infrequent intervals just to see if things are continuing.<p>I think the IC will help your H. I know my H was going for about a month before D-day #3. I do think that helped break through the fog a little bit. He heard some of the same things I had said to him, but from a different person -- somehow that had more validity than my words. When my H moved out, he went to stay with his parents. That was a dose of reality! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I think going there reminded him of what life was like before he met me and how far we have come since we have been together. Going to the IC might help you H to realize that this really is an A, regardless or whether it is physical or not.<p>Rsearding going to Plan B. Only you can decide that. There is no guarantee that your H will come out of the fog if you go to Plan B. If you do decide to go to Plan B, I suggest that you make sure you have done a great Plan A up to that point -- no LB prior to going to Plan B. That way the last thing he remembers is how wonderful you were, not that you were a shrewish b****. Give him the Plan B letter, explaining that you love and care for him but can no longer continue with him still continuing the A. Then you will have to stick to it. Set some ground rules that you want to enforce if he later asks to return.<p>Good luck. Let me know how things are going. I think it is great that you are exploring becoming a Speech Therapist. I am currently attending law school (don't hate me, I know everyone hates lawyers). Originally, when my M blew up, I considered quitting, but realized that I need to do things for me and make sure I am prepared for the future no matter what the future holds.<p>FHO

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Odile,<p>I am glad things seem to be taking a turn for the better for you. Your description of your H and his selective inattention as well as his family life as a child sounded so familiar. I felt like I was reading about my H.<p> Sometimes it takes a boot to the head for these guys to wake up and smell the coffee. I know this because I did pretty much the same thing with my FWH. I went into plan B fairly early on, only after 6 months of plan A because I could see that plan A was not working for me. I started plan A before D-day and continued w/ it after too for a time. I became too depressed to improve me anymore because I had total care of our 4 kids (he was gone alot) and he continued to lie about contact plus he began to get into a relapse. All the love within me was dying and I knew that I didn't want to end up left with hatred for him, which it would if I continued letting him sit on the fence. So one night at MC, I gave him a list of behaviors that I needed for him to implement (stop all contact, email and mobile phone access, go back to AA meetings,nothing terrible). Those were my conditions and I gave him the option of returning when he decided that he was able to do these things for me to feel safe with him. Then he was welcome to return to our home and be a family w/ us. He was pretty mad to say the least and immediately said that he would not do these things. I just replied thats fine, let me know when you can. I was very calm and collected even tho it scared the **** out of me to hear that. But I knew that it was time for ME to do this for ME and my sanity and wellbeing and that of my kids. I wasn't being a very good mom during those months.<p>During the plan A months, there didn't seem to be much movement of him away from her emotionally, even tho the PA was ended as soon as he confessed to me. My love bank was pretty low. So from my limited perspective, this worked better for me because I immediately felt stronger and not such a pushover. I felt like I was losing my respect for myself by letting him just roll over me. I know this is not MB as is stated on this site but sometimes you have to do what feels right for you. I was ready for him to not come back if thats what happened. I knew it would never last with her (he 40, OW 24, I think she was looking for a daddy) and he would lose the best person in his life, yup, thats me. It would be his loss and tho I would lose alot too, I was ready for that as well.

I have read in here sometime that it appears that those M's where the spouse moves out have a more difficult time of it and don't seem to work out as well. I don't know whether its worse if the spouse goes of his own decision or if he is asked to leave. I think once gone, maybe that final sense of connection to kids, etc is more easily lost. Of course, there are many other stories I've read where the spouse goes and then realizes how much they miss what they left behind. Maybe it just depends on how connected that person is with spouse, kids in the first place. <p>Maybe after a couple of times of going to IC you can talk to him about starting MC together. My therapist suggested that and it helped alot. We were able to use our IC time to hash over things discussed in MC and work on getting it better the next time. You're doing great.

Odile,<p>I am realy glad that things seem to be going a little better. I is great that at least he is hearing you somewhat. Your H is right that the A is just a symptom of what is wrong with your M. Now, that does not minimize how HUGE an impact the A has on the M, but I know that in my case if I had not been distracted from my M and my H had not begun withdrawing from the M because he was not happy, the A would never have happened.<p>If you H is really serious about working on your M, I suggest you both complete the ENs questionaire -- you can print it out from this site. That will give you insight into your Hs top ENs and give you ideas on how he would like them met. You can also let your H know your top ENs and how you would like them met. One thing that really helped me understand the ENs philosophy is that you should not judge your spouses ENs -- they are what the are. Men and women have different ENs -- that does not mean that one sexes needs are better than the others, they are just different. I will tell you the meeting the ENs really works -- it is amazing. When I really concentrate on meeting my H's top 3 ENs -- in the way he likes them met -- our M goes great. He then really tries to meet my top ENs -- in the way I like. This really deposits LB$. <p>I also suggest that you really examine what these OW were providing to your H. There has to be something that he gets emotionally from the Rs. Then try to do that for him. I know my H said he liked the attention he got. I now try to give him more attention.<p>That last suggestion I have is that you continue on the path you are on. It seems to be working. You have give your H a dose of reality and let him see that there need to be changes or your M will not continue. Also, if it just drived your H away when you cry and act upset, try a different tactic -- which you seem to have done. Try to be very calm and logical when you let him know your feelings. If things get too emotional, suggest a break until you can explain things in a manner that he is more receptive to. Actually, one of my Hs complaints was that I did not show enough emotion -- I was too logical when explaining my feelings. After D-day #3, I was no longer logical, I was hysterical. Maybe that was one of the things that woke my H up from the fog.<p>I am really glad that things are going better. Hope they still are. Good luck, you are in my thoughts and prayers.<p>FHO

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:12 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Odile,<p>I'm really glad that your H is talking to you like that. It is a really good sign. Perhaps the fog is lifting a little. Keep in mind that it does roll in from time to time. Just be patient. Eventually it will roll out for good.<p>I know it is hard to consider yourself second best sometimes. I don't really think that your H is looking at it this way. When I first discovered everything, of course I was angry and hurt and felt this was all my H's fault. Then, when I took a step back and looked at myself and how our R had changed over the years, I realized that I was not as fun as I used to be. Sometimes after a period of time, we get so caught up in working through our daily life and problems, we forget to take time to have fun. It's easy to say that my H should take me out to have fun and do things so I can relax and have fun. I thought that way at first also -- look at all I was doing so that we were successful: working full time and at a successful career that requires travel and additional hours, keeping the house in great shape, honoring family committments, going to school to provide for an even better future. My H should help me out more so that I would be able to relax and enjoy life more. What I realized was that I needed to prioritize what was important to me and my H. In the book SAA, SH says that recreational companionship is generally in men's top 5 ENs. It is really important for me to try to meet this need -- so maybe the house is not as clean as I want it (it is cleaner than my H thinks it needs to be anyway). <p>Right now I wouldn't worry about whether your think you are second choice or not. Just keep meeting your H's ENs and you will become first choice. When you go out and have a great time with your H, he will want to go out with you again -- kind of like when you were dating, remember that. <p>I believe that things can work out. It takes time and patience and it is VERY hard work, but worth it if you really love your H and want your M to succeed.<p>Continuing best wishes to you. I think the IC will really help your H. Just give things some time.<p>FHO

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:13 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:14 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Dear Odile,<p>I have read your story and see many many similarities. As long as your H harbors resentment and anger the OW or EA is still alive. <p>You have set the right expectations and boundaries. Here is where I think you can shore yourself up a bit. Don't volunteer to give it all up. Let your H win you back. <p>As for the snooping, you can keep on doing whatever you need to keep your trust in tact. I have done the same with my H. He got angry saying he lost his privacy. I told him he is always welcome to his privacy, outside the home. If his privacy is more important than the safety and protection of his family, the take it and move out. I meant it and still do. That attitude and privacy excuse has now gone away. <p>Your story and mine are similar even to the 'mustache'. H has had his since high school and shaved it off for the OW!!! YUCK! Even though he looks ok without it, still the reason is a trigger so now his face is a trigger!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]
LOL!! <p>For me, I set the standard that what must be out of our life and home is the OW and any contact with that witch is an invasion of our privacy. It also exposes the family to bad association. Since H has a bad attitude with us after associating with the OW or anyone like her. <p>Establishing that boundary has eleviated a lot of stress for me and made H more responsible. <p>Just wanted to let you know that I think you are doing well for the time you have been dealing with this mess. <p>Take care,
L.

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:14 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>