Oh my. Well there are definatly some issues here...and maybe, just maybe your friend sees this??<p>I pulled that bs on my H. I was resentful and angry with him because of all the ways he failed me in our marriage. Because he wasn't there for me when I needed him to be, and because he was never as giving and good to me as I was to him. One time in a fit of rage I told him that if anyone deserved an affair it was him. I apologized the next day but I was extremely ashamed that I'd said that. Let me tell you what I've learned. First of all....NO ONE DESERVES an affair. Your actions or inactions had NOTHING to do with your husbands wandering off. If he was unhappy he needed to speak up and do everything he could to make the changes WITHIN the marriage...and if that didn't work then divorce and move on. That whole line about "I didn't realize I was unhappy" is a crock. I said it too. I MEANT it because I didn't remember being miserable all those years, yet once I started having these new, previously unnoticed, needs met...well, heck, I HAD to have been miserable since they weren't being met before. And so THAT must be why I fell for someone else...cause it was my H's fault for not meeting my needs in the first place. BZZZZZZZZZT!!!! WRONG ANSWER!!! I didn't KNOW I was unhappy because I WASN'T unhappy...I didn't HAVE those needs then. Our needs and desires and dreams and EVERYTHING changes as we get older. NOW I'm ready for passion and depth...THEN I wasn't. Our marriage had many things that were right with it, as well as many that were wrong. It's true my H did take me for granted and it's true that he didn't take me seriously enough when I would cry out for things to change. But...he is entitled to make mistakes too. No one can possibly be expected to know the right thing to say or do all the time. I HIGHLY DOUBT you ever INTENDED to neglect him or his needs. You did the best you could with what you knew, just as he did. And he is just as responsible for not speaking up about his unhappiness and you might have been for not noticing it. QUIT taking all the blame. I took all the blame for a while...then I blamed him for it all. And it was NEITHER. Things change...we change...we learn as we go and do the best we can.<p>Give your friend a break...a little distance...it's not her job to be in the middle of all of this, nor is it her job to have any more "answers" than you do. If you have a plan, stick to it, if you don't...time to take some control of you and your life. Don't stay because you "owe" him...and don't sell yourself short just because you made mistakes. The current problems in the marriage are NOT of your making. If he's still angry and resentful...he's not ready to work on things. Until the realization hits that HE'S responsible for HIM and his action and NO ONE else can fill the voids he has but him...he won't be ready to recommit.

Terrified???<p>You okay? You talking to me still ....? [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jo

Dear Terrified-I hope you know I am coming out of the shadows just for you :-) I have not been here in ages but once I read your post I felt a huge urge to reply!!<p>When I found out about my H's A I knew immediaetly who NOT to tell-and that would eb someone whom I called a good friend. I somehow knew she would be judgemental and any help I got from her would not be worth the situation her knowing might put us in.<p>One day I was extermely upset, a bit suicidal, bawling and unable to stop and H had to go off to work. He called this friend of mine and told on himself-because he wanted her to come take care of me as he couldn't. Besides shocking her to the core he immediately cast a black shadow over our friendship. She couldn't imagine him doing this to me or our kids. She could not fathom how I could deal with it-or with the fact that his A was with my best friend.<p>While she did her best to be there for me I felt the coldness that she now feels for my H. And of course she told her H so he too began to act differently towards my H.<p>This was like one more knife being jabbed into my heart. It hurt me terribly and I didn't know how to deal with it. Talking with another friend I met right here at MB one day I told ehr about it. Her words were that some people jsut can NOT deal with this type of thing. And she is right!<p>I have thought many times that some here allow there spouses to run and rule like I wouldn't dream of doing. But it is an individuals choice. Everyone and anyone is capable of making a mistake. It takes a far better person to work through it than to not even try.<p>As for blaming yourself-------dont do that! Your words haunt me-as my H told me too he thought I didn't love him any more. I was so stunned-how could he think that???? Well, it is easy when someone is dangling steak in front of them. <p>My ex friend knew exactly how to make my H tick-and she did it well. I blame them both.<p>Hang in there and keep coming here to get the help you need and the advice from someone who has been there and done that.<p>Best wishes

Dear T,<p>Sometimes the hardest kind of friend to be is a true friend. <p>The words by your friend is a bitter pill to swallow but one day, you will appreciate those words. In essence those words were given to me here @ MB. Slightly different words but with the same meaning. <p>So I will say.....look for the meaning. What does this friend have to gain by speaking her mind? What does she have to loose? Then step back and see what do you have to gain or lose by this brutal but honest revelation? <p>Me? I would rather have a friend like that than a Ws who speaks with a 'foggy forked tongue'. Wouldn't U?<p>I would respond by saying something like:<p>'I understand your position in this situation. Honestly it would be difficult for me to watch such pain from the sidelines. It is difficult for me to explain why I choose to do what I am doing right now. I need to know I have done my best in this M and when I am emotionally ready then I can move forward with a clean conscience. That may or may not come in my time, it may come sooner but right now I am not emotionally ready to let go. Please understand or at least please respect my decisions. I appreciate your candor and value your insight. Also your friendship is important to me. What I have learned from all this mess is that my reaction is very different than what even I imagined. I have talked (@MB) with many who can vouch for what I am going through. I am not making excuses but I do know now that my insight (pre-A) is not the same as now. Empathy is much harder to do than sympathy. Thanks for understanding and I hope we can remain as friends.'<p>
L.<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

Well, I'm back. I responded to my friend's email. Before I responded, she sent me another email accused me of holding on to MB and not my REAL friends. She indicated that MB may make me hold on to a hopeless dream. She doesn't understand the MB concepts and in my response email, I was very polite and caring. Non MB'ers really don't get it. And maybe they never need to...<p>Jo, I appreciate your words. I honestly re-read these posts over and over just to get me through each day. The harsher ones are no different. So of course, I'm still talking to you. I NEED you!!!<p>Honey, God, you're so positive. Your behaviour is so like mine it's almost surreal!!!Terrific news that your H responded so well to three days of no contact.<p>Hope, Excellent insight into the WS's mind...very helpful for me. Thanks so much!<p>Heartache, Thank-you. <p>Orchid, My response was very close to what you suggested. She is a true friend and I indicated in my response that whatever happens down the road, I don't want to lose her. I need her. Things just may not happen according to a set timeline. And I so agree with you...at this point the only kind of friend I want is someone who can be honest instead of someone telling me what they think I may want to hear.<p>Thanks to all of you for incredible posts.

Hi guys,<p>An update note from my H in response to my apology for my behaviour on the weekend which probably triggered his behaviour. I have to take some responsibility. Part of steps towards humulity, I guess.<p>Here's his response:<p>"I agree with you and you haven't lost my family and they will always be there. I do understand what you are feeling inside but you need to move on. I am hurting and I am tired of thinking I can work with you one day and then the next day comes and we are back to square one.<p>I still care !!!
Drive safely."

That sounds very promising, but it also sounds like he is testing you and you need to pass the test for him to come back for good. <p>I wish you strength to be consistent.

T -- read carefully what your H is telling you in that e-mail.<p>He's waffling -- but the bad news is that your Plan A is not working. He may see some good changes -- but then you backslide and he feels justified in his position.<p>Please go back and read some of the suggestions for Plan A. <p>**stop trying to make him care about your needs and feelings.<p>**stop being needy, sad, or depressing to be around<p>**stop initiating "relationship" talks<p>If you want to be in Plan A -- then BE THERE. But you absolutely must STOP all this LB'ing behavior. Or why even BOTHER saying you're in Plan A????<p>(and personally -- I don't think you should be -- the only good reactions you've gotten from him is when you have used the 180 techniques and started making him FEEL some of the consequences of his decisons. I think you should be 180'ing or Plan B'ing.)

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Terrified:
<strong>"I agree with you and you haven't lost my family and they will always be there. I do understand what you are feeling inside but you need to move on. I am hurting and I am tired of thinking I can work with you one day and then the next day comes and we are back to square one.<p>I still care !!!
Drive safely."</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Ok I'll do the bad cop routine again. In the e-mail above your H tells you to move on. He also is saying that he is trying to work with you and I don't think he means on the marriage. Lexxxy is right. You are not using Plan A as it was intended and I also agree with her that you should do use the 180 or move to Plan B. Right now your H doesn't seem to be open to your needing him and he needs to realize the consequences of his choices. I'll keep you in my prayers.

So sorry T. One thing I learned is that a lot of people don't understand the MB concept at all. many people only see "He left, he obviously doesn't want you, move on." But it's far from beign that simple. So many WS change their minds and MB can help that along. No to mention help you to make valuable changes in yourself even if things don't work out. I had afew people tell me that I was crazy for "ahnging on" to the marriage. There was one person in particular who was supportive to my face but I found out later that she said to someone else "I really think it stinks what he did to her. But he's not coming back. She shoudl forget it. Why would he come back if he left in the first place. People just don't do that." Guess she was wrong lol. Ironically the person who supported me the most and urged me the most to fight for my marriage was my friend who was once a WS herself because she knew firsthand that marriages can be made better than before.

Okay, I hear all of you. I'm feeling a little shaky and insecure. Remind me of the 180's. Give me an example of 180 type behaviour. PLEASE.<p>BG, Inconsistency should be the crown that I wear. Thank-you for your thoughts. <p>Lex, Believe me. I hear you. It feels like I've lost him completely. Like the floor has collapsed beneath me, you know? Don't know why I'm like this now. I have to take control FAST.
Just remind me of good 180's. I need it hammered into my brain. I'm just so SCARED. It's as if I'm losing it all over again.<p>TD, I hear you. My H isn't anywhere near "our" marriage or its recovery. And I'm just plain in panic mode.<p>Help me.

Hi FD, Thanks for replying. You know what? I am going to fight for my marriage regardless of what people think or say. I know that in my heart. It's the "how to fight right" part that I'm screwing up so famously.<p>I am going to do THIS. In my heart, I just do not believe it's over. You know? And FD, you just validated that what non-MB people think and say is always going to be directed to the "it's over, move on" belief.<p>Thanks. I just need so much strength.

Posted to me by zorweb:<p>I got this off http://www.divorcebusting.com. I hope this helps. DivorceBusting suggests doing a 180. The approach will help you find and even better YOU. If it saves your marriage is only secondary.
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes.
--------------------<p>.

T-<p>I just talked to W and she made the comment "I wonder why OM's W would want him back? He cheated on her and treated her so badly by being with us both, I don't understand why she wants to even try anymore." She then says "At least I was faithful to him, we were separated and I didn't have sex with you, so I wasn't really cheating on you, but he was doing both of us" Boy did I have to bite my lip hard to keep from responding to that last comment. I was going to ask her what it was called before we were separated and where in the Bible it says that separation can be used as an excuse to be unfaithful.<p>Anyway, I told W that the reason OM's W still wants to work things out is because she still loves him, that they have 14 years together and she knows what mistakes she made in the M, is working hard to overcome her flaws and is willing to make the changes necessary to have a M that will be better than ever. I also told her that the only way their M can survive is for him to end all contact with you and commit all his time and energy to his W, M and family. I then told her that is exactly how I feel about her.<p>I guess what I am saying is that it really doesn't matter what others say, the only ones who fully understand are the ones who have been through it. Even W, who basically was the WS and BS at the same time doesn't fully understand why OM's W would want him back. In a way, I think this is one of the ultimate tests of real love, if love can survive and A, then it can withstand anything. To me, if the love that my WS and OM claim to have for each other was real, then they wouldn't be having the problems they are having right now, they would be together and not spending time with their spouses like they are doing.<p>So, you stick to what you feel, T, you are the only one who knows you. There is nothing wrong with fighting for what you believe in, if it aint worth fighting for, it aint worth having. Let your friends say what they want, true friends will still be there for you in the end regardless of how they feel at the moment.
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi LHS, I'm with you all the way. <p>Thanks for your support and encouragement.

I agree with you T -- your marriage is NOT over.
I think he will come back -- but not using the strategies you've been using so far (too little boundries, inconsistant, too much begging pleading, guilt, etc)<p>Remember this?<p>I got this off http://www.divorcebusting.com. I hope this helps.
DivorceBusting suggests doing a 180.
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation)be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness
and contentment. Show him someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes their feelings
stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than
ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see.
Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.<p>
PRINT THIS AND LIVE THIS

Definitely appears you are in very capable hands regarding 180 advice, Terrified. Just popped in to let you know I am keeping an eye on you.<p>Keep reading and seeking support, Hon .... unless you've lived it, most people don't really understand the psychology of affairs or any of it's nuances. Lucky souls that they are.<p>Love,
Jo

TD & Lex, Thanks for reinforcing. Should invest in some wallpaper, don't you think? <p>Lex, I hope you continue to do well in your situation. As a WS and former BS, I value your opinion. And you also seem like a straight shooter. So, tell me why you think that my marriage isn't over. What is it that you see that is different than how you feel inside? Somehow, if I could, I'd love to pinpoint that. You know what I mean? Or maybe it's something I want to understand or hold on to???

I see signs that he doesn't want to let go. That its not as "over" that he says it is.
He still approaches you sexually. He still wants to spend time with BOTH you and your daughter.
He doesn't want the truth out, he doesn't want to take any further steps away. And his e-mail indicates that his thoughts are swinging back and forth.<p>BUT -- I think to sway him back your way, you need to take steps to push him away -- like a pendulum. <p>Your Plan A has been too much about pleading and begging and crying.<p>I think you will have more success with pushing his buttons -- like not letting him be the cakeman -- not letting him be comfortable with this separation (no more visiting YOUR house!!) -- be strong and happy -- start acting like you accept things (notice I did not say to really accept it -- JUST ACT LIKE YOU DO!)<p>As soon as you started doing some of those things T -- he strongly reacted. Remember how he felt about your BIL doing some things around the house? He was reacting HUGELY to that -- and aggressively pursuing you sexually after that -- like he needed to somehow reclaim you.<p>Thats where your strength lies. In KNOWING that you can be in control. That you are not in any way giving up on your marriage -- you're just giving him a new path to come home.

Hi T,
Lexxxy's giving you some very good advise.
My H was vey much like yours. But... after 3 months of plan B and my intention to move 200kms away, and yes I was serious about it..H woke up!!
For the last 2 months he's been like the old H, and it's getting better. I knew, even though I was moving on, the M wasn't over. And I also had non MB people telling me to D him etc. etc.
Please consider plan B or some very serious 180s. Like Lexxxy said ACT like you have accepted it's over.
Take care.