I guess I'm kind of slow, but it finally came to me. My H is adamant about his family not knowing about his A. (I did tell my family during our separation, and he is furious about it, but at least they know.)<p>This is especially significant because my H values his family more than he does me. He actually spends 15 hours a week non-TV time with them that excludes me, so they surpass me on the quality-time list.<p>At first I thought my discomfort with the situation was because I feel so guilty when I'm around them because it makes me feel like I'm deceiving them the way I was deceived, which is true, but then it hit me!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>That it's not just my discomfort with my part in the deception, it's the fact that there's a deception at all!!!!! Watching his smooth-as-silk deception of them week after week with no apparent remorse is not only a reminder of what he did to me, but also a graphic illustration of the likelihood that HE WILL DO IT TO ME AGAIN!!!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>His family is so important to him, and I have wondered so many times how he can stand it that his family doesn't know, and therefore can't love, the REAL him. He's only given them the option of loving who they think he is, JUST LIKE IT WAS FOR ME. And I know how it would affect them.<p>Yes, they would be disappointed in him and ashamed and feel that they somehow failed as parents, but I think what would hurt them most is that one of their children would devalue them to the extent that he would exclude them from such a painful time in his life and not allow them to help, to pray, to be there for him/us. That he would deny them that.<p>Like if he had been in the ICU in critical condition near death and he had left instructions that he didn't want them to know anything about it until AFTER he was dead, so they never would have had a chance to be at his bedside.<p>And for my side of it, I feel guilty for participating in the deception and I feel empathy as a parent knowing how it would make me feel if any of my children excluded me from such a significant and painful part of their life and prevented me from being there for them when they needed me. And if my H's conscience isn't pricked by his continued deception of his famly, it will have no problem with continuing to deceive me since I'm lower on the value list. Plus, because watching how good he is at it weakens my confidence that I'd be able to discern it. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>If he can't be radically honest with his parents who love him unconditionally and would continue to love and support him no matter what he did, then being radically honest with me is not likely. Conversely, if he were to stop deceiving his parents and come clean with them, then maybe there'd be a chance that would trickle down to me, too.<p>Anyway, thought I'd share that lightbulb moment just in case anyone else was dealing with the same type of thing. At least now I know how to address this issue the next time it comes up.

That's half of it, good work...the other half is he is forcing you to be a part of the deception, and he has no right to do that...so until you tell, you are as guilty as he is of the deception....kinda stinks huh, that is why secrets bind no one, and one has no moral/ethical obligation to keep a secret regardless of promises... truth always trumps lies/deception/secrets regardless of promises, which means you can't fully blame him cause you are an accomplice in the crime....

Arg, C, you are SO right. Now I have to be responsible... ack.<p>I haven't told them, because I felt like it was his job to tell them. But I hadn't considered some of the points you raise here. Now what am I going to do????<p>I am uncomfortable with them - they live far away so we only see them about twice a year. I have had the thought - "Now I have become a liar too."
I kind of thought, well, if we get to separation, then I will answer any questions honestly about why, but ...

Boy, SNL, you sure know how to throw down a gauntlet!<p>I'm with you Bgentle--aaaarrrrrrgggggghhhhhh! Now I have to deal with yet ANOTHER moral dilemma!<p>SNL is so right. And to think of all the times I advised people on here who had friends who were being cheated on! And here I was in my own situation using the same logic you stated, that it is HIS responsibility to tell them.<p>I should have told them as soon as he left back in September, when we were separated. They were out of town, and I've always suspected that the fact that they were coming back the following week had a part in prompting H's request for me to take him back--that he feared being exposed to them and facing them with what he had done. I still wonder how much of this reconciliation is motivated more by not wanting to fail them or fear of losing status in their eyes than the fact that he failed me.<p>Okay, here's how I'm going to do it: "H, have you thought about when you're going to tell your parents about what happened?" That's my opener. He'll probably say he's not and he never wants them to know. Then I'll lay out my points above. But ultimately it will most likely come down to the fact that I can't live with the deception anymore and probably the same thing so many of us have advised others about friends, that "if you don't tell them, then I'll have to."<p>Well, at least we're not alone on this leaky barge.

Perhaps your husband feels as I do that it is no one's business but yours and his. <p>I absolutely hate anyone knowing our private business and disagree that not telling others in the family about something so personal is deceptive. I think of it as just OUR business and no one else's. <p>We all have different points of view on the subject and this one is mine. It isn't necessarily the right answer for anyone but me. <p>Catnip =^^=<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: catnip ]</p>

Conqueror,<p>I am so glad you wrote this because I too am dealing with this dilemma. Not only does my WH not want to tell people but I don't either. I realize that I feel like his actions are an extension of me and feel uncomfortable with people knowing. I am so ashamed because I thought my life was perfect and now I too am afraid. I told my Dad, my sister and my bestfriend. I can't get myself to tell my mother and it is killing me. I want to protect her but at the same time I want her to see what is really going on and to comfort me. <p>I don't think my WH will tell his parents but I think he should. We are going to visit them in 2 months and I am going to bring it up b/c i really think that they should know. As for my mother- i am getting closer to telling her but i want to see if my H and I can work through this first. Do you think I should wait or should I tell her? As for friends that don't have a clue what is going on- should they know too?<p>
Thanks for lighting my lightbulb too!

I can sure relate. My H had an affair with my friend (former best friend) 6 years ago. They both claimed it was EA only but it still resulted in a 9 mos separation and basically a year from ****. Well, his parents think "Nothing happened" and we are so lucky to be back together. They basically abandoned me during those months and treated him like a hero. Of course they didn't know (as I didn't, just found out recently) that he was sneaking around having sex with her, at her house, her car, making out in our office and worst of all, took her into MY BED. This devastates me. So now when I'm sad and can't shake it to be fakey with them, they must think I'm a lunatic. He won't tell them and the MC said it's not my job. <p>They live this very phony "we are perfect, rosy glasses" life. Pillars of the community and all that crap. I can't tell you how hard it is not to tell them. HIs mom would have a nervous breakdown if her H even looked at another woman.<p>I was doing better on anti depressants but had to quit them when I got pregnant. While I'm thrilled about the baby, I am having a hard time emotionally-not sleeping, weepy, etc. I really resent him, and them as well. But he gets his way and comes off looking like the wonderful, faithful husband. REally fair!

I have been thinking about this situation for a long time only in my case it's whether to tell the spouse of OM. Now I believe that by not saying something to her, I am aiding in her husband's deceitfulness. If she doesn't know then he will continue to do this to her.<p>I believe that if family and friends know, then WS would have a hard time getting away with it again. Everyone will be looking for signs and talking to you if they see some of them again. It goes back to total honesty...if you knew you would be caught doing something you weren't suppose to do then you probably wouldn't do it to begin with.<p>I'm telling his wife tonight and showing her the evidence. If she ignores it, then okay. At least I am not helping in the deception anymore. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

This IMO is why you tell secrets. The notion that is not others businees, or someone else should tell is nothing but rationalization (to avoid consequences YOU do not want to face). The issue is the secret, not how or who tells, everyone (all of us) are required by the fundamental axioms for a successful society to not facillitate secrets...that is also why the law makes it very tough to avoid some kind of culpability if you know a secret....keeping secrets destroys the fabric of a civilized society.<p>In the case of affairs, not telling immediate family cause is "none of their beeswax" is patent nonsense. We are not talking about strangers, or co-workers, or neighbors....we are talking about people who have made (and most likely are continuing to make) significant emotional investment is your (or ws) lives...they cannot do this properly if they do not know these secrets...in conquerers case her H is essentially stealing from his parents/family, he is enjoying the benefits of their emotional investment in him, while avoiding the price of their disproval (including witholding resources) if they new...this is not love of family, he is just using them, just as he used conquerer, and she is helping him victimize his family...plus losing the benefits of their support to her. Plus she is presenting a skewed version of who she is to them. She has to fake happy, or be sad and have them think she is mentally ill or something, which further injures her.... The whole thing sucks big time, and I hate liars, nor do I cut em any slack at all....frankly I don't care what they do when exposed. Truth is always its own defense....and just like an affair is a relationship based on a lie, so is a recovery where the truth was never revealed to immediate family, the recovery is a lie. This is in part cause one who seeks recovery will also make ammends to all, and that includes immediate family....they can't do that if they don't tell...so not telling reveals them for the liar they still are, including the recovery.<p>Anytime you maintain a relationship with someone based on a lie, witholding stuff they would consider important (and you know it) you are using and abusing them....bad enough when you do it, but you have no right to require someone else lie for you as well. You only have 2 choices, indeed ones life is their own...if you don't want to tell...don't...but you must then cut off all contact with your family, because anything from that point on will be lies and abusing them...but what people like conquerers H do, is want their cake and eat it too, they want the family relationship, but they do not want to pull their weight (be honest with them)....cake eaters come in many flavors it would seem.<p>I too did not want all told, and I made that known to w (this is excruciating for the ws), but as she gradually told people I simply accepted it, was not going to complain or make waves... I think telling a bs (especially the op bs if unaware) is an absolute...telling family does have some provisios, if one has little or no relationship with family, they are not due such truths....or possible if one is very ill and such, some effort to avoid stressing them might be in order....also one can reveal such things in various ways, some far more hurtful than others...circumspection would seem to be called for.<p>catnip, hope that clarifies this notion of private business, there is no such thing in relationships, including family ones, they have every right to know your business.....what if they would reject (or pressure) your h (?) if they knew about this....how can they do that (and it is their right to do so)if this information is kept from them? The key here is fair exchange, if your H has nothing to do with family....fine, but if he is enhoying the emotional resources given to him, and he seeks this through deception, it is not a matter of what you think, it is abuse of his family. If you think not, then ask them whether they think keeping secrets related to the character of their son is okl with them....and tell them if not, then you must stop interacting with them cause you have a philosophic disagreement....That is the trouble with all these so-called private business arguments, they are all transparent lies of omission to people you know would alter their interactions with you, doing so makes one no better than any other thief....gussieing it up with labels like private business changes nothing....one of oldest rationaizations of immoral behaviour in the book, is to change the labels... not particularly impressive to anyone who applies moral standards to the argument. Anytime anyone omits ANYTHING they know another would find relevant to their choices re you, you have LIED, and ABUSED them, and their trust of you, it is that simple.
The sad thing is people (including family members) lie to each other all the time, for the purpose of avoiding consequences, and to avail themselves of stuff they want from the family member....is kinda disgusting actually.

I actually did tell not only my wife's parents, but also my two daughters when I made an ill-fated attempt to move to Plan B about a year ago. It was the best thing I ever did at the time. Under Steve Harley's guidance, I sent the Plan B letter and informed our whole family (mine and hers) of the affair she was having with another woman. Part of the Plan B letter even explained this to my wife.<p>The only problem was my Plan B lasted only one day. I gave in under my wife pressuring me that it wasn't in the best interests of our daughters. They also pressured me at the time as well, believeing it was better that Dad & Mom continue talking things out.<p>Whether this was a good decision our not, it at least stopped any plans my wife and this OP had at the time. Since that point, my wife has done a pretty good job of damage control. She insisted to all that they were just "best friends". But everyone knows better. Neither family will speak to this OP and she used to be pretty close to all before this.<p>I also remember reading somewhere where Dr. Williard Harley favored informing the company if the thw WS and OP are co-workers. I'm going to ask Steve about that next time...

I have to agree with Catnip. I believe, as my counselor pointed out, that everyone is entitled to certain privacy. What you want as private is your choice, but you are entitled to that. If you chose to tell, so be it, but if you chose not to tell that is your right as well. <p>Now, my mom was the first to know. My husband told his parents, which I was a bit uncomfortable with because I wasn't sure how I'd feel around them. Not that I wanted to deceive anyone, but why make gatherings awkward. In any event, everyone has been really good about it and very supportive in our rebuilding. However, I have not told my dad and my husband respects that. He knows that my husband and I have had problems in our marriage, were seeing a counselor, but has not asked specifics, and noone has shared them (my mom even respects that). For me, it would be all the more difficult to face. I've always been daddy's little girl. Sure, my dad will still love me the same, and would not shun me, but it's hard enough to face this truth and work through it as it is, it would make me feel even more disgust in myself I guess. It's hard to explain. I just couldn't bare to tell my dad. My choice though, and my therapist agreed it was ok and my right to have that privacy. My husband respects that and has no problem with it, actually he likes that idea too. He values my parents. My mom has been a great support, and my dad too (simply knowing there were some sort of problems).<p>In any event, sorry to be so long winded, I feel the same as Catnip. It's perfectly ok to keep it between you and your spouse. There is where the problem lies, and there is where the problem needs to be corrected.<p>Just my two cents worth. [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tutter13:<p> It's perfectly ok to keep it between you and your spouse. There is where the problem lies, and there is where the problem needs to be corrected.
<hr></blockquote><p>That is exactly how I feel also. H and I are working things out just fine between the 2 of us. There has been no separation or anything like that, that would warrant an explanation to anyone. It is something that both my H and I agree on jointly. <p>The day may come that we will tell, but for now it isn't anyone else's business. <p>Just my opinion,
1step<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: 1stepatatime ]<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: 1stepatatime ]</p>

My 2cents: We are only as sick as our secrets.

We've told both our parents and I'm glas we did. Don't get me wrong. It was a very hard thing to do. Not only to tell my parents but also his as I have had a very good relationship with my in laws.<p>My parents took the news hard. They are both disappointed in me. But they are there to support myself and my H in the recovery process. They have told me that they are disappointed and angry with me for my actions. This followed shortly by now what can we do to help. Most of the time that helping is just a good, nonjudgemental ear for me and a sympathetic ear for my H.<p>His parents were also supportive after they got over their shock. They did not condemn myself or him. They have talked and listened and offered their help. Facing them the first time after disclosure was pretty hard on me. I didn't know how they would react. But they have been nothing more that supportive. <p>Disclosure to those important to you is a very hard thing. We don't want them to know that we have really messed up. But I think a lot of people would be surprised at just how loving and supportive our close friends and family can be. I don't think you should go shouting from the mountain tops but everyone, BS and WS alike, needs to have a support system. If those close to you don't know, they cannot be supportive. Love, support, caring is something we all need. Probably even more so during this time of emotional crisis.

Also I delay telling because while maybe they (inlaws) have a right to know, I am almost positive that they will tell someone who does NOT have the right to know. <p>Question for SNL: Does this untrustworthiness negate their right to know?<p>I sometimes refer to my secrecy as a cocoon. It has helped me in that right after Dday I might have done whatever my mother told me to do because I was so lost. In this way (not telling) I have protected myself from following bad advice. However, I think I am probably due to get out of the cocoon and make my own decisions while getting support from more sources and ... In others words, take responsibility and grow up. <p>I'm gonna need a lot more support first though, I think the day I tell is the day WH moves out. It will be one MAJOR LB.

OK Bramblerose...<p>Just what do you mean by your statement???

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bgentle:
<strong>Also I delay telling because while maybe they (inlaws) have a right to know, I am almost positive that they will tell someone who does NOT have the right to know. <p>Question for SNL: Does this untrustworthiness negate their right to know?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is definitely something to consider. One of my relatives told my ex-H. NOT A NURTURING THING TO DO!!!!! You do not tell someone who has a vendetta against your loved one where your loved one's Achilles heel is. You'd have to know the history of the situation to know how dangerous this is to me and my children. As with any predator, when he smells any weakness, he goes for the jugular and has not stopped in more than a decade.<p>Now this person didn't tell him directly, but told someone who was obviously a direct pipeline to my ex-H, and I didn't want that someone to know any of my business either. It never occurred to me that this relative would do such a thing to me, or I never would have told her. I feel completely betrayed by her, too, now. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] The only thing I can do is learn the lesson that I do not give information about my life to that relative anymore because she is DANGEROUS.<p>So, definitely assess the damage someone may do to your family along with their "right" to know. In my H's case, he is very enmeshed with his family and obviously values them more than he values me. He spends significant amounts of time with them 6 days a week--more time that he spends with me and our children, at least as far as direct face-to-face quality interaction time is concerned. And the entire extended family gets together every weekend, so the R with them is pretty significant.<p>The fact is that most WS share intimate details about our Ms with the OP, a COMPLETE STRANGER as opposed to close family members, so that argument about keeping it in the M falls on deaf ears to me. If my H could reveal all he did about me and our M that he did to the OW, then he has no right to claim that his family is not entitled to intimate details of our M, ESPECIALLY if deceiving them is uncomfortable to me.<p>I had no choice in my pants being pulled down in front of the complete stranger that he was betraying me with. I do have a choice about this as it affects our R for all the reasons SNL pointed out. It is the WS who originates the excursion of taking the intimate marital business outside of the M. They can't then cry foul in a situation like this.<p>My H had the GALL to say I betrayed HIM by telling my family that he walked out on me, leaving me and the kids with no money--that I was just trying to be a victim. Well, I WAS a victim, HIS victim, and I NEEDED my family. I'll never apologize for that.<p>If he doesn't want to tell his family, then fine, he can explain to them why I don't come over anymore, and if he makes up something, he can hope they don't call and ask ME why. I'm just tired of deception in the M. Period. And expecting me to participate in one of his is definitely making deception of feature of the M.<p>What's kind of funny about this is that back in January when we had our last "fight", seemingly out of nowhere he throws in, "You won't be satisfied until EVERYBODY knows about this." and he was referring to his family because of their connection to the issue we were talking about, but all I was interested in at that time and what I was pursuing was no contact with the OW and his continuing to go to the place where she works. <p>So, either he knew I would eventually get to the place I am now about the family issue, or he was projecting his own discomfort with it. Who knows.<p>Another issue that is relevant from the parents' perspective is that they are also grandparents, and a M in danger has the potential of affecting their R with their grandchildren. What if I decided to take the kids and move across the country? They're used to seeing the kids every weekend. Don't they have a right to know that that arrangement could be in danger? And if I did do that, the only thing my H could do about it if he didn't like it is take me to court, and where is he going to have to go to get the $ for that?<p>For many of us, the outcome of the current status of our M has consequences for our extended families, not just us.<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

bgentle...Question for SNL: Does this untrustworthiness negate their right to know?<p>snl...Yes, it could, not to a spouse though...if they are untrustworthy you simply divorce, then you no longer have to tell them stuff.... but family, yes, if they violate your trust, or you are reasonably sure they will (in a SUBSTANTIAL way, that doesn't mean the infidelity secret leaks out, that is a given, just comes with the territory...a NATURAL consequence), they forfeit their right to know (and your obligation to tell), the basis is survival, that trumps everything...BUT if you don't tell just cause they will give you grief, that'd too bad....This is all about relationships, if you want honest ones they are bases on mutual trust, that includes not keeping secrets because you are afraid of losing the value of the relationship....doing so is manipulative of the other party, and makes you a liar and a thief...you are stealing emotional resources they may choose not to spend on you, if they knew these secrets...how anyone can call this privacy, and defend it escapes me, it is so obvious.<p>Let me ask a question, would anyone feel betrayed if someone who was a close friend and consumed a lot of your emotional resources was actually a pedofile, and did not reveal this to you? How about a parent who knew you were not theres (adopted), and deliberately concealed this from you? (of course one would not reveal this until you were emotionally mature to handle the information)...or worse yet, knew who your biological parents were? I could go on and on, there are always reasons, excuses, rationalizations to withold information from someone...but the bottom line is simple, if you have a secret you know (or could reasonably conjecture) would be important to them to know, and withold it, you are abusing them, lieing to them for your own gain....and sometimes lies of ommission are the worst kind, cause the other has no idea you are lieing, and they trusted you... and the trust was misplaced. There is no such thing as privacy, it is a made up notion to rationalize lies of ommission...in a civilized society if we are gonna do more than give lip service to the word trust, you do not keep secrets, no matter what it costs you....if you do, you are no different than a ws who lies to their bs....<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

If the affair is over, there was no separation and the couple is together & repairing the marriage, then others don't necessarily need to know.<p>If there are children I believe they should know an affair occurred if there is a separation (more than a week or so or if the ws is continuing the affair while separated) or divorce.<p>Harley recommends telling others if the affair is ongoing. The pressure from them will help to end the affair.<p>Telling others does no mean bad mouthing the WS. "Just the facts ma'am, just the facts."

Each is entitled to their own opinion but most don't want to be left in the dark. <p>So IMHO, not to tell would be 'enabling the A'. Even if it is a dead A, it is one of those 'family secrets' that novels and movies are made of. YUCK!!!<p>Are our lives so private that this A was a secret. Those many may not bring it up, often more know about it than one realizes and only after it is disclosed are others willing to share their knowledge. Then there are those who would gab any way and pretend they knew all along. <p>So it is a gamble either way but at least one is more in the light than others. <p>IMHO, again conflict avoiders never want their indiscretions exposed. Think Prince Charles' indescretions are a secret? Nope, why not? Because he wasn't discreet. So why should anyone else be discreet for him? <p>Any WS who can inflict the pain seen here on these boards 'assume' they have the right to 'privacy' of abuse (A's reaction on the BS), looses that right when there are victims. Kinda like the way a crimminal should loose his rights to his freedom after commiting murder. <p>JMHO, of course.
L.