Each WS reacts differently in the A. Some are adamant about leaving and verbalize their strong dislike for BS and make decisive choices to be with OP. Others cannot make a choice between OP and BS resulting in waffling endlessly. Someone has to put an end to the waffling and it usually is not the WS.<p>What is the difference in these two types of adulterers? What makes a cakeman? Are they passive-aggressive? Are they indecisive? and how do they fair in the recovery process? Would love to see some statistics about cakemen/cakewomen. Are there more cakemen than cakewomen? Do the cake eaters ever get help and find satisfactory recovery?<p>TW

Maybe these 'cakemen & cakewomen' need to be on a 'family diet'. One that shares and cares for others and not just themselves. <p>There was a good cakeman writeup last year. Maybe someone can post that thread. <p>L.

I'd sure like to see sopme more responses to this. Tossedwave, I notice that you have been together a long time. How long has the A been running? I think there is a different set of behaviours for "older" men. They have so much more to lose. My H. has been waffling - off and on for 3+ years! - why am I still here? Why are you still there? Happy to chat with you further.<p>Rosie

I would love to see some input from others on this subject as well. My H has been waffling now for 5 months! One day he decides to break it off with OW, then a couple days later, he's back with her. Finally in February he decided he needed to move out and "sort" things out in his head. He moved a week and a half ago (seems like forever). He came over to talk last week and sat there and cried that he didn't know how he got to this point, he doesn't know what to do. He says he thinks about our marriage before and knows that we got along great, never argued and are best friends, but he says what scares him is that he doesn't have that strong passionate feeling with me (and doesn't think he ever did!). He said before he left he thought this new life was what he wanted, but now he's not sure. I don't believe he is seeing as much of OW as I thought he would be, but I know they still talk as they are co-workers and I know she calls him on his cell phone (she called one night last week when he was standing there talking to me). <p>I know my H's therapist said he should take an anti-depressant because he was having so much trouble making decisions, but my H refuses. How do we end the waffling? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Is this what they call the fog? My WH actually asked me to commit to the relationship before he broke it off with OW. Was he keeping her on the side until he knew for sure that I was taking him back? She was offered a job and he wouldn't even tell her not to take it until I said I would work on the M. I asked him if he knew how ridiculus that sounded. Me committing while he still has a girlfriend. I was at my wits end but finally said fine. We will work on it after you break it off with her. He did imediately. But I was still shaking my head. He broke the vows but I am supposed to make the decision!!! IS that fog or what?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by hurtandlonely:
<strong>Is this what they call the fog? My WH actually asked me to commit to the relationship before he broke it off with OW. Was he keeping her on the side until he knew for sure that I was taking him back? </strong><hr></blockquote><p> Lots of people don't like to burn their bridges. I think that's partially why so many WS who come home intially keep contact with the OP. They start to get nervous that the BS will change his/her mind, pitch him/her out and they will be alone. I noticed the tables did turn somewhat when my H first came home. Suddenly he was afraid that I would decided I didn't want him after all. So I'm sure that isn't uncommon.
At first my H wasn't a "cakeman". He was just being a typical conflict avoider. He knew that if he revealed that he had an OW the s*** would really hit the fan (even more than it already was) with me, my family and his family, none of whom are big on adultery. After he decided he may have made a mistake he turned cakeman for afew months. Then I got sick of his waffling and beign a ping pong ball and told him I was opting out until he decided what he wanted. He jumped off the fence shortly after.
OTOH my sister's H divorced her for an OW. 2 months after the D he called her up crying about how much he loved her, what a mistake he had and that the OW made him sick. He begged my sister to take him back. He actually said "I don't love her at all. She disgusts me. I realize that you are the only woman I've ever truly loved and I never should have divorced you. If you give me another chance she'll be out of my life forever." Sister asked "If she disgusts you so much and you love me so much then why are you still with her even now?" Answer "Because I don' twant to be alone and if you won't take me back I'll probably keep her around until I find someone else. No matter how badly I treat her she hangs around for more anyway." Needless to say my sister wasn't interested.

Some of these stories sound way too familiar. I really wonder how many of us are struggling with an initial waffler or a true cakeman/woman. <p>In my case, I had asked my WH to move out before I knew (but strongly suspected) he was wayward. The last year had been miserable -- everything was my fault, I was to blame for everything wrong in his life. I asked him to get counseling (we had tried marriage counseling and he refused to go back after two sessions) because I thought he was severely depressed. On the day he was moving out, it hit me like a ton of bricks that nothing added up/unexplained trips, etc. and I searched and found confirmation of an ongoing EA/PA with a co-worker.<p>He read me the riot act for snooping and continued to try and deny it. He said he would not contact this woman outside of professional conversation. I know the contact outside of work has not ended -- he hides his cell phone, changed online access to his accounts, etc. all indicators of hiding something. When I ask him if it is still going on, he says nothing. When I ask him if he wants to end our relationship, he says I don't know. But then he calls every night and wants to come over every weekend.<p>Some days I see glimmers of hope and other days his behaviour is so deplorable that I think why am I putting myself through this.<p>At what point do you stop plan A and realize that they are either indecisive or a cakeman? I know that the planA is just for a short time and it is for you to work on yourself. I guess maybe the answer to my own question is that you move to planB when you can't take the waffling any longer.<p>If you don't have any way to really snoop short of hiring a private detective and they aren't admitting to the continuation of the affair, how do you know it's still going on? What do you do with out ruining plan A?

Hope someone can bring up the cakeman thread from before. I am amazed at this type of person. When the A first started, I was so willing to work on things....survival kicks in and you want to keep your family intact. BUT now I am slowly loosing respect for WS. I cannot understand how someone can be in so much pain (My WS has been depressed, crying, not sleeping, and claiming that OW is not what he expected)but can continue to ruin their life. I truly understand the initial mistake of having an affair but I am baffled by the dynamics of how addicting this is. It is so hard to see any hope.<p>Rosebrook---It has been one year now cause I suspect the A started in Feb or March 2001. Excellent point about older men---that could be one of the ingredients that make them such a cakeman. He wants the best of both worlds----The fantasy of A and the stability of family life. We both have a lot to loose in ending our M. We have a fairly new home which took us 25 years to get. We have a financial status now that is very comfortable and rewarding. We have the potential of watching grandchildren grow and fill our lives with childlike things. We have friends and family who love us both and are shocked with what is going on. <p>You ask why I am still here---#1 I do love my H. He is a decent man and has a lot to offer as a spouse if he could only be one. #2 I have a lot to loose and financially, my standard of living will decrease immensely. I do not make enough to live as comfortably as I do now. My house that I wanted to get for 25 yrs will probably have to be sold. #3 I want to offer my grown children and their families love and support not heartache and struggle as they watch their parents suffer. Last but not least----I have always wanted a family and to be married. How ironic. I was the one who wanted a good M and I love family life and WS did not give a real hoot about that at all. Look who is alone now. It is ME. Are you separated from your H? 3 years is long? I do not think I can go on much longer. I feel so used and 4th or 5th on my H list of priorities. That hurts. My H has a drinking problem and also is a paraplegic from a drunk driving accident so we have too many odds against us. I am discouraged with the knowledge of all this.<p>Hurtandafraid, I thought I was reading my own story when I read yours. Egads!!!! There is nothing new under the sun.<p>fairydust---that situation with your sister is another familiar scenerio. WHY CAN'T THEY BE ALONE? I thought for years that my H wanted to be a bachelor cause he sort of lived like one. Just doing his own thing and pushing me away on a regular basis. Now I ask him if he happy and he says he is not and it is baffling to him, too. My H is afraid too that things will not work for us and he will lose her too even though she is more demanding than I am, he can't shake loose.
I have been reading alot and observing the addictive personalities and it is a terrible place to get oneself. Almost like the point of no return. Addictions have such a damaging effect and seem to put such a rut in a soul that it is almost impossible to stear away from the very things that cause so much pain.<p>Unsureheart, I hear your questions
At what point do you stop plan A and realize that they are either indecisive or a cakeman? I know that the planA is just for a short time and it is for you to work on yourself. I guess maybe the answer to my own question is that you move to planB when you can't take the waffling any longer.<p>Hope we can get some answers soon,
TW

bumping for anymore thoughts on this<p>What makes a cakeman and how do they fair with rebuilding and recovery?

My DH was a cakeman. During the whole time we were separated (8 months) he played me, would come over for family dinners, spend the evening with me, occasionally "go upstairs" with me, went for counseling together and separately, and of course fed me that line, He loved me but he wasn't in love with me. <p>I would often ask him if he was still calling OW (she lives in another province) and he would say only once in a blue moon. Apparently we had blue moons several times a day! During that time he was telling her that he wanted to be with her, wanted her to move here which she refused to do. Why would she, he was paying her bills anyways. Of course he also told her that he was staying "true" to her and their love. <p>After 8 months he moved back home, but unbeknownst to me he was still calling her and emailing her. It was 7 months before I found out, and by then he was also corresponding with several other women, had joined a personal website, had possibly even met with a couple of them although he denied it. <p>At that time I asked him to fill out a sex addicts questionnaire, after realizing that he fit he then joined a support group for sex addicts. <p>It's been really tough, but I have to say that we now have a far better relationship than we've ever had, we are both happier than we've ever been. I think if the cakeman comes to an honest realization of what he's doing, and is willing to work on it, then rebuilding is possible. It's been a year now since he's honestly started rebuilding and life is good. I hope it stays that way! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Eureka! I have found the answer - at least the answer to why my WH is a cakeman.<p>I read Affairs by Emily Brown and Patterns of Infidelity and Their Treatment by Emily Brown, and found the answers. <p>Before I begin, I have to say that I wish I had found this earlier - no offense to Plan A and Plan B but it would have helped me understand my WH a little better and would have helped me formulate my reaction better.<p>Ok. Here goes. Emily Brown breaks down affairs into 5 types. Cnflict Avoidance, Initmacy Avoidance, Sexual Addiction, Split Self and Exit Affairs. <p>My WH's affair from what I can gather is an Split Self affair. Similar characteristics of WS as to someone with BPD. It's when the WS feels responsibilty to doing what's right(spouse) and having their guess what - emotional needs met by OP. However, the crux if the matter is this. The WS thinks that the OP is the only one who can fill those emotional needs, when in reality the WS doesn't need the OP - it's an emotional deficiency on the part of the WS who never properly learned how to fulfill thier own emotional needs. The emotions generated by OP are all inside the WS, the WS just never learned to tap into them. These WS's are like emotional vaccums and until they work on themselves you can't even begin to work on the marriage. <p>The Patterns.... book is like a cheat sheet because it's written for therapists and tells you how to treat the WS and BS in each type of affair. It's GREAT! <p>Unfortunately it may be too late for my marriage, but the sins of the father are doomed to be passed onto the sons if they are not addressed so I'm letting my WH know about this so that he can fix himself(if he chooses) for the sake of our children. I don't want our kids growing up and filling the same mold. I want to break the cycle that leads to this.<p>I highly recommend both of these books because it gives you the Whys that we all spend so much time on this board searching for.<p>I hope this helps someone. K

Wow---God is in control, I did see that same thing about 6 months ago. When my WS said to me one day, OW awakened something in him that he never knew was there. This tipped me off to the fact that I seemed to contribute to his need to suppress his feelings. One dymanic with us was that I mothered him----"took" care of him emotionally not being able to allow anything to bother him. We were very good friends but in a sister/brother kind of way he keeps saying. He shut me out so much that I shut down emotionally and we never talked about us and our feelings for each other. Little did I know that he could not talk about his feelings cause he did not know what his feelings were or are even now. I totally agree with the couseling for the cakeman's own issues first before any recovery can happen. He truly is in love with the feelings and it is good that he wants the feelings of love. But bad that he does not know where these feelings belong.<p>Excellent observations that this book brings up. I have read about 4 of the types of affairs but never read anything on Split Self Affairs. Have to read up on that----thanks<p>TW

I can see a cakewoman in my wife.
Several months after she moved in with OM. I talked with him after dropping the kids off. He seemed to think it was a big contest and one of us would be disapointed. My wife heard about this and told me we might both lose. Since then he moved away and after he decided to move away she decided to move back to me(this is a real stroke to the ego). She has told me she still is not sure what to do. We sold the house we built 4.5 years ago, and rented 2 separate duplexes. Now she can see she instead of 2 men both wanting her she may have niether one want her. Whole different thing.
I can see wife may be the split self pattern. She may benifit from being on her own and seeing she is OK. She calls and asks for help and I trade her for things she can help me with, like doing my laudry before my W/D were delivered, or giving me a haircut like before. I get to help her and show her I care for her and she gets to feel needed too, but still independant. She decides what she wants to do.
I'll sign off for now, this got me thinking.<p>D<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Daniel ]</p>

wondering if there is any more input.<p>Would like to hear more about the results of cake eating.....where does it take everyone?

After your response to my response, you really should read those books by Emily Brown. <p>The mothering thing, the withdrawal by both spouses because of the absence of the emotional intimacy - it's all in there and that's what happened with me and WH - although he's not ready to admit it. <p>K

Just thought I'd drop in here, this thread struck a chord.<p>D-day for me was 4/30/01. WS started talking about D a couple of weeks later. She would bring it up every few weeks, and each time I would tell her it's not what I want. Finally, on 11/3/01 she informed me she filed. On 12/26/01, I counterfiled. Since then, with the exception of her lawyer filing paperwork two weeks ago regarding custody mediation, she has done absolutely nothing with regard to the D. We are no further along now than we were 5 months ago.<p>Last weekend I told her it's probably time to talk about selling the house, but haven't heard a word since. Talk about cake eating.<p>sad dad

tossedwave, Hi, I remember you from months ago when I joined MB because you are another BS with an alcoholic WS. My H moved out December 2000 and has been with OW, more or less, ever since. <p>I filed for D back in July, 2001, but H begged me to stop (so I did), not because he wanted to move back home or give up OW, he just didn't want me to divorce him. He saw me during the day and stayed with OW at night. She is much younger, less than 1/2 his age. He lied to both of us that he wasn't seeing the other.<p>He told me he loved me and was attracted to me (I'm sure she heard the same thing), even though our pre-A relationship had deteriorated to the brother/sister stage, and our sex life actually improved. We went to a marriage counseling weekend and even continued in counseling until the counselor told him he has to get sober, then decide if he wants to be with OW or not, before MC can help us. He has continued to be verbally abusive through all of this.<p>At that point I gave him an ultimatum: get sober and end A or get divorced. Well, he chose OW and not getting sober, so we're back on track for divorce. It's actually been less than 2 weeks since we met with his lawyer (I fired mine last summer and this seemed like a less hostile way to divorce, though I may end up having to hire a lawyer of my own), but it seems like ages. <p>We've had almost no contact, after seeing each other every day, and it's actually helping me to detach. It's painful, it's not what I wanted, but I just can't go on being blamed for all our problems in the face of his A, being verbally abused, and being lied to about OW only to have her thrown in my face. <p>I spent two years after being diagnosed with breast cancer in 1998, going through a mastectomy, chemotherapy, radiation, and reconstructive surgery only to get hit with H's return to drinking after almost 10 years sobriety, followed by several months of verbal abuse, and then him moving out suddenly to live with OW - OW left her H the same day. <p>I've wasted enough of my life - almost 4 years - on scary, miserable stuff. I'm ready for something good in my life. First I need to walk through this pain, but I am putting my life in God's hands and I know God will lead me where I need to go.

Just my two cents, <p>My wife may have been a cake eater or a waffler, but I can tell you that continuing the contact after adamantly swearing there was none - even to friends and relatives - well I lost so much respect for her.<p>I tried every day since the discovery of continued contact to deal with it constructively, but the person I was trying for had just become completely disgusting to me. Her opinion was not that she wanted "the best of both worlds" but that she wasn't sure if I would stay with her after all she had done and she was afraid to be alone so strung OM along. Pathetic stuff really. <p>So what did her cake eating do to us? Well, it showed me that a woman I considered strong was weak, a person I had tried to trust in spite of her was not worthy of the smallest effort at this point, and that the respect I based our love on was all but gone.<p>Today things are slightly different, not neccessarily better, just different. I still have the nag in my head saying "you are stupid as a sack of hams to try working anything out with a miserable cheat."<p> I would also like to say I agree that it's hard as hell to get with this "addictive behaviour" dynamic of affairs. From MPOV ... WHATEVER! Addicted to being a lying sack of sh^&t? Addictd to having no conscience? OK, and I am addicted to shooing myself in the foot. PLEASE!

My summary of these responses shows that the cake eating stems from a FEAR of being alone. "What if this one does not work out, I will keep this one going just in case." <p>I wonder if the cake eaters can really love anyone?<p>God in control, I will read that book but I just finished this morning Torn Asunder. I saw for myself that I am still trying to get needs met that my father failed in. "A father's responses to his daughter can cause her to later mistrust men, even while she is desperately searching for one" Wow---I can't image what a father problem OW has beings that she is 27 and involved with a cake-eating 56 yr old married man. She has no future with WS but doesn't want it to end. Isn't she special???<p>Letstry---you go girl!!!! you are a survivor. What you have just come through is remarkable. If my WS was abusive, I would have chucked the whole thing many moons ago but he is a top notch Plan Aer. He has done above and beyond for a man that has moved out and has treated me with the utmost respect. What that is about I don't know. It is like I can hurt you bad but no one will know it not even you.<p>I am sooooo sorry that so many here can relate to my situation. I would not wish this pain and confusion on anyone. God bless all of you and keep finding that joy that only comes from "committing your way to the Lord and He will direct your paths"<p>TW

I think it's the case of the cakeman/cakewoman can't love another until they learn to love himself/herself, and I think that they can't even do that until they can accept God's love.<p>I read Torn Asunder too. Good book. I've got a whole library now and can give you about any book review you want. (Is that a good thing?!?!)<p>Have a Happy Easter! K