Hi,<p>I've been thinking and thinking.... (hm....dangerous or what?!?!?) - LOL!<p>Anyway the word Love has lost it's meaning and often misapplied when the A is running. But the word trust, now that is a bit harder to misapply. <p>I remember when d/d hit our home. H was so sure he 'trusted' OWs words. Well I didn't but then again, I didn't like her. <p>Either way, I have never trusted her and now neither does he. Ahhhhhhhhh but he did really believe at one time that he did 'love' her. But trust? Well in the fog it was much easier to see the distrust before they could see the lack of love. <p>So I think (opinions welcomed) that the BS should concentrate on 'restoring the trust'. That is what we should place as a requirement for the WS. Whether we are in plan A or B or C or D. If the WS has to have interaction with us, there needs to be trust. <p>I have told my H that I am tired of checking up on him. I am. I also said that it is his responsibility to restore my trust in him. Hm.... gave the guy a goal, objective, responsibility and job and now he is being more attentive. Ok, it may or may not last but the excercise of this project is having results. Temporary or permanent, for me it is worth the effort. <p>What are your thoughts on this??!?!??<p>L.<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

O - you're right on the money! The only way we BS's can move forward and begin to let the bad images/memories fade is for the WS to work hard to re-establish enough trust so that we can see some tangible progress toward restoration of the marriage. While we will always be less trusting/more alert than before, our spouse must realize that he/she must restore enough of the trust to lead any kind of "normal" life.<p>I think it's good you laid it out for your H - sometimes guys need to be told, "If you want A, B or C to happen, then you have to do D, E and F." I think women who really want to repair things see things more clearly. My wife tells me where she's going, how long she'll be gone, if she ran into FOM, etc. I didn't have to ask her to do so.<p>Good luck with your new approach - hope it sinks in!

Orchid,
I went to my post on the emotional needs board and a person was saying how with two A's W has funny way of re-building trust (big paraphrase)& I was thinking on prior convesation with DW just as I was sending her home, she said that I would never trust her again & I said I don't know, but that I would think counselors might help you with that. Maybe ther are strategies that would help. It does not seem the thought has entered her mind since.
You have nailed it!
I mean she said she carried condoms in her car because she read that the women should take some repsonsibility -- if she values our relationship you would think she could do a search for different kinds of articles. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Frankly, I believe she takes me so much for granted & does not believe I will pull the plug, so why should she extert much effort to change.
again, thanks!
HH

Yep, Orchid, that's exactly what I did right after D-day. I picked up all that trying to get proof of what he was doing behind my back and plopped it down right in his lap and told him it was his responsibility from now on to prove to me that he is NOT doing anything behind my back anymore and until then I will just assume he could very well be doing what he was doing before D-day.<p>So far, I'm still waiting for the extraordinary precautions to be done on a consistent basis. But there will be no commitment to this M by me without that proof that I am not being stabbed in the back and betrayed as I was before.<p>It is not our responsibility to "learn to trust" them again. It is up to them to prove they are worthy of trust.

And then one more LIE kills everything that was rebuilt up to that point...<p>Honesty is the only way to build someone's trust in you. Unfortunately, lying and cheating go hand in hand.<p>It is possible to lie without cheating, but when someone has already cheated, they have to work doubly hard on being honest--to rebuild that trust.<p>Trust has to be earned. That's why it takes time. BS can forgive with one decision, but trust is a different story. WS have to do a 180 all their own...

Isn't it odd how it is so much easier to trust the WS when they are at home, in front of you where you can watch them and judge actions and reactions? My WH teared up last night after I mentioned to him about how insecure I feel sometimes. He told me the other day that he worries sometimes when I get depressed that I'll just throw the towel in and quit the marriage. I told him that at times I think about that, but that I've never put any action behind the thought. I told him the only thing that would make me leave would be him having another A on me or becoming abusive (which he's never done and I don't look for that to happen.) Then is when he teared up and I asked him what was wrong. He finally said that he just couldn't believe that he had done me this way. I know he wishes he could take the A back. In moments like that I trust him completely. But then this morning he got up and shaved and really looked nice when he left for work, so immediately I wonder if he's trying to get her attention again. (he still works with the OW) - I asked him about the shaving and he said one of his bosses was coming around and he wanted to look promotable today. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] I guess I just have to accept that as it was the only response I got. Of course it helps to remember that she always like the 3 day beard look, so if he's shaved that means she might not be as attracted to him. <p>I guess the feelings of trust don't carry over after I send him to work because that's where he had the A to start with. That's where his "alter being" came out of the woods during the A. He was one way at home and another way at work. It's hard for me not to fear that could reoccur. So I don't trust his feelings at work to be consistant with those he exhibits at home, although I hope they are.

I've been in a position where I started to trust my WH again after his first affair 6 years ago. Actually, he really didn't do much to regain my trust, but I (used to) have a very trusting nature. So it was easy for me to give back to him something he didn't earn. Now that he has confessed to multiple affairs (I *really* need to find out how many exactly) I find I am obsessively untrusting to the point of making myself crazy!<p>My WH himself recognizes the need for trust and is the one who is placing restrictions and requirements on himself. If he's going to be late getting home, he will call me. He's even gone so far as to say he'll call me and then I can call him back as often as I need to to make sure he is actually at work. He will not go out to bars without me and he accounts for all his time. When he works a long day and has a 2 hour lunch, he comes down and has lunch with me. He even started a discussion about how I could go visit my family without him and still be able to feel comfortable that he wasn't running around while I was gone. This is all stuff he has offered to do as conditions of him moving back in. And in the past month I would say he has been 95% effective in doing these things -- which for him is really quite excellent since he is just naturally very inconsiderate.<p>Even with him trying to regain my trust, I'm still looking at every single thing he does and wonder, hmmm? Why is he doing that? But, without him taking the initiative and trying to regain my trust, I would have blown up at him about all these little, niggling things long before now. I haven't because, by his outward actions, he is doing everything he's said he would. Checking up on him only makes me more crazy and in the long run does nothing to help develop trust and in fact probably hinders it.

Orchid,
I think that you are wonderful, and I always make it a point to read your posts. I, too agree, trust must be earned. I would love to exchange e-mail with you, you are such an inspiration to me! Good luck in your marriage, I will pray for you.

Orchid, good thoughts.<p>I wasn't very trusting prior to H's A. I was the most trusting as it began. So, I don't have a lot of motivation to be really trusting.<p>During the A & bad times, I did a lot of snooping, drivebys, futile stuff for the most part.<p>When my H finally was sincere in wanting the marriage, first he had to ask me to stop the divorce process I had started, but he also opened his life up to me...previously of course he needed his "privacy". Now he doesn't need privacy & I rarely snoop.<p>So, I probably behave more trusting than I was generally during the early years of our marriage, but I don't know if it is trust or just the wisdom that all the snooping, distrust didn't keep him faithful. And if he chooses to do it again, distrust still wouldn't make the difference. But my not acting controlling, or like his mother [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] does help so he doesn't need to escape from me.<p>After those 7 separations, if it was to work between us, I had to figure out what made him run. And I think "holding him loosely" is a major component.

orchid-great thread.bump for others.<p>ddex-what is a little niggling thing?? that term cracked me up.

Niggling: adj. - 1. petty; inconsequential. 2. demanding excessive care, attention, etc. 3. fussy. n. - 4. petty or inconsequential work.<p>So, all these niggling things are petty and demanding too much of my attention!

Orchid---excellent points about trust....for me though I have to be careful cause my suspicisons are not always founded. That sure blows back into your face.<p>Lor--holding him loosely is truly a new concept for me. Great observations. Everyone wants to be trusted but the untrustworthy ruin it for themselves.<p>TW

Wow, good replies. I think it would be good to develop here at MB the tools to focus on. <p>Love is a great word and has much meaning but when it is misused, the meaning is lost. <p>So we need to focus on other words such as trust. I am sure you can think of others. <p>For me right now my words are trust, accountability and responsbility. Not very romantic but truly working words. It is more difficult to argue against those words than the word 'love'. That is what I am trying to do move away from the emotion that already drags most of us beyond our limits and help us (new and old) on words that can promote action.<p>Just a bit of clarification. When I speak of trust it is the trust that the WS must earn. Not the BS. The accountability and responsibility is then shared equally on both sides. <p>For me, I don't often tell my H, "I love U". But I do make it a point to say I need to be able to trust U. Eventually I will get to use that word love but I don't want to use it too early othewise the meaning could be lost. <p>Waiting Again, my e-mail addy: lhmkem@yahoo.com<p>Thanks again. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
L.

My H & I say "I love you" several times a day. I doubt if I ever say anything about trust. But, every now & then I tell him I respect him--I know how hard an effort he has made on our recovery. And sometimes, after I visit him at work, I tell him how confident he is, professional, smart, good with people, well-spoken. <p>I don't often see his full work persona at home and when I do it tends to be stressful!<p>But at his work, it is appropriate and obvious.<p>When the FWS has a high need of admiration, sometimes that is a tough one for the FBS to meet, respect may be another avenue besides love or trust.

great post! This has really helped me get some thoughts clear in my head this morning that I have been unable to figure out before. I'm writing these wise words down that I have read. <p>Saying "I love you" seems so unsatisfying lately, like those words just don't do it for me anymore. Neither does hearing it from him.Before D-day, saying/hearing I love you meant : I care for you, I trust you to keep me safe, I will keep you safe, I am committed to us. Well thats what I meant, obviously he did not. Now, I don't know what it means anymore. Certainly not I trust you!<p>Orchid, what did you mean in your post where you said that in the fog the it was easier to see the distrust than the lack of love. Were you referring to your H or you? <p>I am taking notes because my FOW is coming home from rehab on Easter Sunday for a week for an extended leave time that they require before he gets out for good in three weeks. We are to have 2 joint MC sessions with me, him, my therapist and his therapist during the time he is home. Dang, its going to cost us! I am very nervous and scared about him coming back. Some days I feel like I don't want him to come back at all or at least not yet, because there are still repercussions from his A and his career crisis that get thrown in MY lap because I am here and he is not. So not doing very well at times because of this. I almost feel resentment cropping up because I KNOW that when he returns, not only will I have to deal with my painful feelings, but his as well because of those repercussions. I fell like I don't have it in me to help him when I can't even help myself! <p>So this post has come at the absolutely right time. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts, I want you all you to know that this person was helped today tremendously.

You're right on the money with this post! One of the first of many outlandish comments my husband made to me was that he loved her but never trusted her. HUH???<p>In fact he never initiated any comments toward her or was physical first. He always waited till she initiated because he feared she may turn him in for on-the-job harrassament. True love no! Self serving...YES!<p>So yes the proof in recovery is, how hard is the WS willing to work at restoring trust. For many of us, The first few months with a WS is hell, because they demand and require trust. Just as they used to experience it.<p>I am finding that after 18months into recovery my husband really understands now that I have no basis for trusting him. He works really hard most days to prove to me that he is being faithfull. He finally understands what it means to work at restoring the marriage trust. With lots of time and diligence I hope it can be restored.<p>Take care,<p>Shaz

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by firefly10:
<strong>
Orchid, what did you mean in your post where you said that in the fog the it was easier to see the distrust than the lack of love. Were you referring to your H or you? <p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hi Firefly10,<p>I am glad this thought was helpful. I was to me also and I wanted to share if it would help lessen some pain of learning things the hard way. <p>To your question: I was referring to the Ws. See even the Ws in many cases knows there is a lack of trust between them and the OP. Still they try and try to pretend it will be alright. Kinda like trying to live in a cartoon or soap opera. Looks fun but it just doesn't work. It doesn't pay the bills that's for sure!!! LOL! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hope that answers your question. <p>To all others,
Thanks for your positive input. <p>L.