I hope this isn't too presumptuous of me ... I'd like to request you all join me in a prayer for SnL & Thinker.<p>I believe today they counsel with Steve Harley for coaching on what's next in their MB plan.<p>God Bless All,<p>Jo

I'm not one of those elegant prayer writers we have around here, but He listens to me for comic relief I think. <p>Mission accomplished.<p>Elizabeth

[img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

My prayers go out to SNL and Thinker. <p>May God bless them and their marriage recovery.

I'm probably a little late, but great idea, Jo. Sending one up now...

thanks for letting us know. I can pray for insight and strength to follow through on decisions.

Just wanted to add my prayers for thinker and SNL.
thanksJo.
BH

Dear Thinker and SNL,<p>I have come to know you both. You have good points in both of you. <p>May the One who can help you both heal be there for the both of you now. <p>From the bottom of my heart, I hope to meet you both together one day.<p>Your MB friend,
LeAnne

So have they been heard from since?

thank-you folks for your concern (and no jo, is not presumptious, is fine), despite anyones opinion about either of us, I pretty much know people who populate MB and work on their personal lives as best they can are caring people, and wish all well. Thinker has been gone all week to atlanta at a horse show with oldest daughter (she is a show jumper, and did good this week, been a long dryspell, she is frustrated but this helped)... I have been here working etc. maybe this was helpful in getting the seperation going. I am not posting much anymore, just the occassional one here and there, I am wore out emptionally, but is a good wore out (as in something accomplished), I have figured out what I needed to, and am well on the way to reworking my life (as per Dr. Phil, Life Strategies) so will probably just fade away here, need to be doing other things..... I will no longer live co-dependent, or think I am not important, I have found myself again, after being lost for a long time...I like who I am, and I know how I want to live, and I will do so..... a few of you understand me, many of you don't, that is ok. I have come to understand who I am is a smallish part of the population and approach life quite differently, and MB while useful in many generic ways to everyone, is not an appropriate strategy for some, and can actually be hurtful, it is not designed for an empaths....<p>I will write about this sometime in the future, our needs are pretty much neglected in the one size fits all approach to marital restoration....one of the key neglects is we have to know why we are restoring, and that is a question at direct odds with the majority of the population which are rulemakers, and the various marital gurus, who are pretty much all also rulemakers....in the world of empaths, why is everything, and principles (the real ones, not the manipulative ones) determine behavioural choices. In a rule making world the rules "become" the principles, and that ensures conflict with folks like me. We had our last appointment with SH wednesday, he politely bowed out, cannot help us with the seperation, and my need to resolve important issues of how we fit, and why be married...those issues have been neglected and diminished all along in the effort to push me into just "do it".....this is extremely disrespectful and uncaring about me, and frustrated and angered me for a long time...I understand pretty much now it is a unbridgeable gulf between the two kinds of temperaments....I am sure I apprear just as intransigent, selfish, etc. in return (as many of you have told me in no uncertain terms, some nicely, some harshly, but you were saying the same thing [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ). I view rule makers as coercive, manipulative, and untrustworthy (cause they value the rules, more than well-being, they are behaviourally oriented)...but in reality this works for them, and is what they need. <p>MB and it's counselling is for rulemakers, people who will simply follow the program, and IF they APPLY themself, all will be well...and if all is not well, then it is cause there is something wrong with them...well maybe there is, maybe I am screwed up because I don't fit, and it didn't work...but I do not see it that way, and I looked at it very very hard, and I did apply it as best I could....and I am not stupid, I can make assessments and arrive at conclusions. MB is about settling, contractural marriage, and does a very good job of it, but it does not make people fit, nor does it (or can it) make anyone be in the condition we call in-love. There are other more important factors involved in the bonding of human beings, that cannot be "made". Nor can it handle the individual psychological issues people have (and they do say that, but so many gloss over that fact and try to apply it anyways, when what they should do is end the marriage, not try to fix their partner IMO). But perhaps the most disturbing part of MB is the idea you change yourself to make your partner safe, and meet their EN...this reduces marriage to calclulated manipulation IMO. The concept of EN's has validity, but fit must be part of it, otherwise you simply reducing both people to their lowest common deniminator, just so they can be married. I have no idea why one would do that, but I think that is cause I am the part of the population that asks why, and requires stuff make sense, to work. For example, I am chastised for being a communicator, I am introspective, and like discourse... NOT DEBATE, I like problem solving, and view discourse as an on-going effort to get into peoples minds, find out where they are coming from and brainstorm solutions, or discover principles and so forth, to apply to life. The computer is a wonderful tool to do this, and I use it so. For the last year my focus (for obvious reasons) has been on human relations, and I poured myself into the effort, cause that is how I do things, I am that kind of personality, be it building a house, buying a truck, researching an issue, solving a medical problem...I am a compulsive/obseessive type person, but within healthy limits IMO (and that is the only opinion that counts, in the final analysis, to my self awareness). <p>Unfortuneately this conflicts with thinkers needs, she has great needs for organization, orderliness, and I drive her nuts. She hates me being on the computer, she wants me doing other stuff, relating to orderliness and organization, and she wants me doing it with her....but here I am sitting at the computer doing "supid" stuff, and wasting my time...or "looking" for ow....she has no idea (although I tell her, and SH for that matter) how much this offends me to be disrespected like that. The MB solution is to stop being on the comp. because it makes my wife feel "unsafe", and does not meet her needs. So in effect I am presented with a choice, stop being who I am (assuming I did willingly consider the issue, and found I did not "want" to do anything differently in this regard), or answer charges of why do I want to do something that hurts my wife....that is a hell of choice steve, and manipulative. Maybe the question should be why doesn't my wife change, and not let this be hurtful, why does she view her H doing what he does well, as not meeting her needs? <p>Well the point is truth is truth, her feelings are correct, and so are mine, they just are irreconcilable, without substantial changes in who we both are...in other words they are about fit. The politically correct solution is to ask each to give a little, sort of kill each other a little bit, then maybe they will be stable enough to do ok together. I am not enthusiastic about that approach to life. IMO what works in marital intimacy is a synergy of EN's, personalities, psychologies, that in being THEMSELVES is nurturing and protective to the other...the problem is people do a poor job of mate selection, and so we need MB stuff to surgically alter people so they can fit enough to get along....and if the surgury is minor (maybe a tummy tuck, or a nose job) then maybe that is ok. But if the surgury is major, (maybe a lobotomy, or amputate a leg, or even 2 legs) then perhaps the cure is worse than the problem, and less invasive solutions are needed (like accepting a less intense relationship than marriage). That is only one example but there are many psychological characteristics of human beings that are incompatible (without substantial surgury) under marital conditions, and there are many that work very well under marital conditions. This should be addressed fully before any attempts to "fake it until you make it"...humans are pliable, they can be programmed back into marital harmony, but it is superficial oft-times, and can be very unhealthy as people try to change who they are for the benefits of another (meeting their needs, and protecting them, but submergeing who they are). <p>POJA is supposed to protect this, and it does but comes at a price, it reduces the rellationship to the lowest common denominators between the two people. I have concluded the notion of identifying and artificially meeting someones needs is not a paradigm for my life...I do not want my needs met that way, and I do not want to meet someone elses needs that way. I want to be who I am, and I would want a marital partner to be who they are.....and in that truthfullness in-love will be revealed, or not, and that is fine either way. I don't believe in-love has anything to do with meeting needs at all, I think that is backwards, I think needs are met because people fit and the needs get met and that is what the label in-love refers too. I think it is absolutely crazy for people to spend lifetimes trying to "teach" their spouse how to converse with them, or be honest with them, or admire them, etc, etc, and if they make some small effort or change, then be happy with that by reducing expectations...what is the point of doing that? Of spending all you emotional/psychological resources trying to meet your partners needs cause they are ones you can do naturally, or maybe even want too.<p>NOTE<p>This was not the whole post, somehow avout 1/3 of it was truncated and did not come through. I have no idea why. Except I realize I was not logged in, so shouldn't have posted at all. I had continued some more explanatory stuff, and if I feel up to it I will try to add it on later. I was gonna erase this, cause is not the complete post, and important stuff at the end tying thoughts together is missing....but I decided to leave it.<p>[ March 30, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Well as you know SNL gave his thesis here. Yes we had counseling with STeve on Wednesday. SNL went first, then Steve called me on my cell phone in Georgia. Steve is not helping with the separation, and if SNL wants to listen to me here would not on the phone, is for the reason, SNL is not wanting to use the separation for protecting each other in a marriage. He will not help in a separation in this way, that is why SNL feels Steve was not cooperative with SNL. SNL is not caring, loving, and looking at a marriage. Steve and I talked for about an hour, and there are real concerns with SNL and his selfishness. SNL wanted to debate, and Steve would not allow the debate to happen. Also, they went around and around about why be married, why to the things, etc. Wish SNL would realize he is not acting in a caring manner, it is self-centered and this is going to problems the rest of his life.<p>I have an appointment with Steve, he wants to talk with me for awhile, and give me support. Steve feels no need to talk with SNL anymore, cause SNL will want to debate. Like STeve said, SNL has been doing this for the last 10 months, and seems to have gotten very little ground covered. He wouldn't ask the same questions over and over if he was hearing the answer. <p>Thank you for your prayers, wish I could be happier for Christ day of rising, but we aren't even going to church today, why be a hyprocrit when SNL hasn't wanted to go to church for the last 2 years almost. I asked him why he wanted to go to church, and he said he didn't know except this was a holiday. 2 of the kids feel the same way, so I will make dinner for us here, and get things done.<p>Thanks for your prayers, I am having a hard time with God, and all the pain and suffering I am enduring. I know God is in my heart, but I am having some serious talks with him. That is the other thing I wished SNL would do, pray with me in bed before the night. He said he didn't really know how, tried and he was not enthusiastic about it. Pray for us, thank you, I am hurting so bad.

SNL, I am so sad for you, truly.<p>"one of the key neglects is we have to know why we are restoring, and that is a question at direct odds with the majority of the population which are rulemakers, and the various marital gurus, who are pretty much all also rulemakers....in the world of empaths, why is everything, and principles (the real ones, not the manipulative ones) determine behavioural choices..."<p>It is so evident your wife loves you, and is trying to make the marriage work. Please look at that. Please.<p>YOu are so good at theorizing and philoxiphizing about ideas the thoughts... perhaps religion and understanding of GOd and religion would be a great joy for you. I do believe that marriage is so much more than a contractual obligation as you put it... is is a spiritual, lifetime commitment. I think you may greatly benefit from a spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ our Savior...he is there for you SNL.. you do find lots of fulfillment in the relationship with GOd and CHrist if you walk with the Lord and develop that relationship.<p>God hates divorce. Divorce is not what marriage is about, nor is seperation. Seperation can be beneficial if things need to be thought out or worked on... so please look at your seperation in this way.<p>You and your wife do not have to fit so perfectly that is just feels right, and everything you do is OK with her.... I am very sure.. that anyone who you don't know as well as your wife.. would be far less expressive about how they feel about how you treat them...or how they are hurt by your actions... ie... being on the computer... possibly talking to ow's....<p>I really do not think the online intereaction is all that great of a way to develop relationships... now MB is helping me grow myself and my marriage... and I am not personally attached to anyone here... especially romantically... so I see that a bit differently... <p>When you married, you promised for life.... to stay.... married to your wife...she is depending on you as the father and the husband of your home.... <p>You are being selfish, DID YOU see Dr. Phil's trailer on the Oprah adultery show?<p>Marriage is about working hard to make things work... you give and you give and you give....<p>You should be more concerned with giving than taking in your marriage,,, if you care for and love and protect your wife as you should... she would not be worried or upset... you are neglecting her needs.. not just mb ideas... either.. universal... and not just rules..<p>Perhaps you are someone who feels right now you cannot honor your marriage commitment... you should be honest... and it looks that you are... it looks that you are angry and unforgiving of your wives past mistakes... and that you do not see her as trying to accomadate for you in the marriage... I don't know...is her super organization and need for order... something she won't work with you on.<p>Order is very good for the children and even for you, with routine we all live more productive , successful lives... God has blessed you with a capable wife... but you are right, she does not need or have to make you do things her way... You are the man of the house... and should act like one... I read some very helpful.. things on the restore marriage site - but it is all based on christian ideas.<p>Now, I do hope you do not feel urged to debate with me on my ideas and thoughts... I really do not have it in me... I am not trying to say you are bad, etc... I just hope you will see that you can work on your marriage.. but what you bring and give to it, will make a big difference... on what you get- and vice versa...<p>I imagine people have told you , you are difficult... no worry... I have heard the same thing... but it is in giving that we receive.<p>May GOd and his son bless you this wonderful Easter... this is the remembrance of our Lord dying for us and his resurrection... he has been sacrificed so that we might be forgiven.<p>Please think about growing closer to the Lord, i do think you will find a lot of your answers in a closer relationship both in your heart with God and in a church home.<p>May Christ Be with you, Honey

One last thought that popped into my head and i will use an easy illustration..<p>
my son has played baseball for several yrs... 2 sessions ago... his coach wasn't letting him play a lot... infield , etc... we really thought he was not being treated fairly etc... and considered that it was not a "good fit" and perhaps we should changes teams... I mentioned this to my parents who took my son to sign up...<p>Well he came home signed up on the same team... where I thought the coach wasn't being good enough or fair enough to our son.... <p>Well, it has worked out all for the better... because with time... we all learned how to better work with this coach and with all the boys we already had a relationship with... my dad sd... he thought it would be better for our son to stick it out on the same team...<p>It has been tremendously better... my son now plays infield... and our established relationship with the coach and the players... has grown , time has made everyone.... work together.. more as we get to know each other more... NOW Sure, we are trying to work together...<p>some people could get frustrated and stop trying... I think this may be what you have done. with your wife... comparitive to my son switching teams... just switch mates? I am not trying to be rude... but you have so much more at stake than you realize... and you have so much to gain if you develop and grow through this challenge in your marriage.<p>That is all I can say, I hope it makes sense. My prayers go out to you. Please realize how lucky and wonderful a family is... what a blessing to all be together on Easter.. please enjoy and respect and love one another.... the peace of the Lord can help you through all of this.<p>Peace be with you.<p>H