Well, what I have tried to not get to has at last happened...I am in Plan B. <p>For now, I think I am OK with it and I hope to find the strength to maintain it. (more about that later) Let me offer a confession and some thoughts that have occurred to me.<p>For those who aren't familiar with my story EA d-Day was 2/15/01; PA d-day 3/30/01 (yes, a year ago today--imagine that?)<p>Five month separation in 2001, followed by a five month false recovery in 2001, followed by a second separation since 12/31/01.<p>As I left it with my WW following our initiation and dicussion of Plan B (BTW, I think in some cases face to face discussion of the parameters is important and not everything can be said in a plan B letter)my W asked me how I have been able to hang on as long as I have---<p>Simple answer: I still believe in us and in her. Even though I am in Plan B, I still believe. We all have to stand for something, and I am standing for the commitment I made and the vows I took. <p>This I suppose can sound hypocritical to her, 'cause I was the WS in my first marriage. Yes---I have not admitted that here but it is true. <p>My WW was the OP. I am not overly proud of not having admitted that here but it was not relevant, I don't think, to my current situation. Even if it was, I guess it was not something I wished to share...anyway, those who have been my loyal MB supporters here can flame me if they wish, but at least now I am coming clean with you. <p>I will say that having been on both sides of the equation leaves me with some, shall we say, interesting insight. At this point that's all I want to say about that part of my past for now. <p>I do want to continue with my current situation and I hope this will offer something for those who are willing to read on.<p>Hypocrisy aside, (and BTW I don't think I am being hypocritical because I know from my experience as a WS just how much those marriage vows truly meant to me the second time I said them) I am committed to this marriage and those vows.<p>My W asked if hanging on so long despite what's happened and her self acknowledged lack of respect for me and the marriage didn't diminish my own self respect.<p>I told her quite the contrary. It increased my respect for myself. I do not now, nor have I ever felt like a doormat in this. I told her I could have long ago divorced her and left the relationship and no one who have blamed me...in fact some would have encouraged that action.<p>That would have been the easy way out.<p>I believe that I, and everyone else here who is taking a stand for their marriage, is doing what is right for them and probably the most difficult thing they can do. They are standing by their convictions, and in many cases, they are doing it totally alone. <p>For me, I just know it is right.<p>But to do it takes faith and courage and an unbelieveable amount of strength.<p>What I told my wife before we parted after discussing no contact was this:<p>I love her. I want our marriage, but the decision to try to restore our realtionship is not mine alone.<p>I have forgiven her, and there is nothing she can do that I cannot forgive...<p>She is free to pursue her happiness and if, for her to be happy, that means ending our marriage then I have to accept that if I truly love her and want her to be happy.<p>I also told her that I am a safe place for her if she chooses. But the bottom line is I believe in her, I believe in us and I maintain a great deal of love for her.<p>I know some of you will also flame me for some of that not being classic Plan B. We all have to find our own way in this and it is not some cookie cutter deal. If you feel the need to point out your perception of the wrong approach to plan B, please remember that what is done here is done, what has been said is said, and nothing can change what I have said to her or how I feel. <p>When we parted we hugged and we both cried. I told her again I loved her and she told me she knew that. She also told me she loved me and I told her, yes, I knew that too. It was very bittersweet.<p>I am now venturing down a different path than the one I have taken for the past year. I hope that those who have supported me in the past can continue to do that despite my confession of being the WS in my first marriage. I will appreiciate your support and probably need it now even more.<p>I have thought a lot about the following and as I move into the plan B phase of this I hope it serves to help me make it through.<p>This is what I believe:<p>Faith + Courage = Strength<p>Faith: Faith that I am moving along the path that is correct for ME. And faith that whatever happens, I will be OK.<p>Courage: The courage to continue on the path that I have chosen and believe in despite adversity or moments of weakness.<p>That those together will equal<p>Strength: The strength I will need to see me through to whatever lies ahead in my life.<p>We all make choices in our lives. At one time I chose to be a WS. I am now a BS. (some say what goes around comes around and maybe that's true)<p>Having been in both positions I can tell you there is pain--much pain--associated with both. <p>But the pain involved and the strength needed to survive is greater for the BS.<p>I hope I can find the strength to do this. With faith and courage (and prayer) I believe I will.<p>As always I thank my MB friends for their support--if you find it in your heart, please include me and WW in you prayers during this Holy Season.<p>Thanks,<p>E<p>[ March 30, 2002: Message edited by: Elad ]</p>

Hmm, interesting, and raises an obvious question... did you leave your first marriage FOR the ow (your ww), or did you leave your first marriage on it's own merits, whether ow was there or not? (and vice versa)....therein lies the answer to what went wrong, someone was not honest with themself or with each other.... IMO leaveing a marriage for someone else is marital high risk behaviour, and has a vanishingly small chance of success (if that is what happened)...You said you didn't want to talk about it, ok, is your right, but without all the pieces it is hard to know what to say to you. I am not particularly impressed with blind obedience to vows, such is IMO a shallow basis for marriage, and is coercive/manipulative in nature...I suspect your w doesn't trust you (emotionally), I wonder why.<p>[ March 30, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Hi E, [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I know how hard this must have been for you to tell us about you being a WS in your previous marriage. I'm sorry you felt you had to hold this inside you all this time. Must have weighed on you terribly. <p>Your courage and bravery in telling us shows me you want to completely heal from all of this. You didn't have to tell us, yet you did anyway. Says volumes about your character, E. Know that that counts for something, truly.<p>I so much want to ask you things regarding the first marriage but I will respect your wishes and refrain. <p>Please know I feel no differently regarding you or your situation, and will continue to support you thru whatever comes your way. <p>Very Best,
Jo

im with jo,elad. cuddos for your strength and courage. big hugs to you and we will remember all our marriage builder friends in our prayers. happy easter

Elad,<p> You have given me solid advice with every post. That you decide to share more of your past makes no difference to me. How can I or anyone, really, flame you? Everyone has skeletons in their closet. Not everyone has the courage to ever be as honest. I think you will find that most if not all still love ya man [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p> As for the Plan B, so what? I think it takes much more faith, courage, and strength to calmly say the things you did in the flesh, and do it without blowing up, than to write a letter. <p> You are among friends here.<p> jd

Elad,<p>It takes courage to admit to your past, and my guess would be that you feel a bit better now... just a bit... one less bag to lug around.<p>It's amazing we all don't have huge, ripped, muscular arms from the weight almost everyone has to carry! You aren't alone.<p>But you found MB now... and have gained a lot of wisdom. So now it's what you're going to do with it going forward... and it sounds like your path is still uncertain - but you're doing the best you can, and you'll be fine!

Thank you, thank you, thank you...<p>I appreciate all of your support more than I can say.<p>I do feel better getting that bit of truth out there...<p> snl You ask the tough question always, don't you? I don't have the answers for all of it. Not for lack of trying. I think I left my last marriage for a lot of reasons...perhaps, in retrospect, not all the right ones, but how do we ever know? <p>I do feel fortunate that my xw has rebuilt her life and I have more respect for her and how she did it now that I am going thru what she went thru. I also have a great deal of remorse for the pain I caused at the time but couldn't see due to my own fog... It's a little late but...<p>As for blind obedience to vows, well I wasn't trying to impress you or anyone. I was trying to make the point that I have more commitment to them after my experience. My point is commitment is something I feel even more strongly than ever before. Perhaps I should have felt it stronger in my first marriage but we learn as we live. I have learned a lot. The lessons, however, have been costly. <p>You said: "IMO leaveing a marriage for someone else is marital high risk behaviour, and has a vanishingly small chance of success." That may well be true. I am 11 years removed from the end of my first marriage and nearly 10 years into this one. I think if that ws the reason for leavingmy first W the impact of that behavior would have been felt earlier than this. But, like I said, I don't have all the answers. <p> Jo You have been so supportive of me that I was very concerned about how you would feel about me after revealing the truth....I am so glad I continue to have your support. We don't know each other except from this board so I don't know why that was so important to me, but it was. I will be willing to answer your questions about my first marriage if you think the answers would have any value... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>nikko, jdmac, J.R.
Thank you...I know you all realize how much support from the people at MB means. This means a lot.<p>Thanks <p>E

E,<p>Hope you're doing good, and have a peaceful and blessed Easter.<p>Jo

Hugs Elad...<p>Looks like you have been doing a lot of 'thinking!' I love the insight I garner from your posts.<p>I wish you peace on Easter and in your plan B.<p>Cali

Hi Elad - I ditto the others.<p>I assume your W knows you were a WS. How does this influence her behavior? Does she accuse you of being hypocritical?<p>Did you ever express remorse to your former W? i.e., do you have any unfinished business?<p>I find no fault with your Plan B implementation. The key point must be that your W understands what you're doing and why and I can imagine that starting it face to face can promote better communication. I'm pretty sure my XW didn't have a clue about what my Plan B letter was trying to communicate, so in hindsight, your approach may have been a better one for me. My only suggestion is that you follow up your "verbal" Plan B with a written letter so she can have it for reference. This will also allow you to send a copy to OM.

Jo, Cali, WAT:<p>Again, thanks.<p>WAT - Yes my W knows I was the WS as she was the OW...I know that sounds harsh but them's the facts. I mean it is more complex than that (isn't it always?) but the bottom line is that I was the WS and my WW was the OP.<p>My W hasn't really accused me of being hypocritical so much as I think she looks to me to empathize with her in her situation. I can do that to a point. I really can and I probably understand some thing she is going thru better than she does. I think that is part of what keeps me committed to us (if that makes any sense.) <p>The problem is that when I try to draw the insight I gained from it and apply that to her situation I think it falls on deaf ears a little. We all need to experience some things ourselves and learn how painful they can be. <p>As Dr. Phil would ask: "How many times are you going to stick your hand in the blender?" <p>But one of the things I told her is that I think if I had been committed and had gone back to my XW and ended the A, I think my XW and I could have made a go of it. We will never know, of course, but I wanted her (WW) to know that the door isn't closed on us (me and WW).<p>Regarding whether I have expressed remorse to my XW...Wow....<p>I have been workin on a letter to her now for the past few months doing just that. The letter is mostly done but I don't know if I should send it to her. I don't want to open any old wounds and I am not sure if it wouldn't just be self serving. <p>I have really wrestled with this. In fact I spent a great deal of time talking about this to a friend just the other day. She( my friend) suggested I send the letter. I have not yet, but you are right Dave--it does feel like there is still some unfinished business. <p>I don't want to do it, though, just to make me feel good. <p>I would want to do it to make sure my XW realizes how sorry I am for putting her through everything and how happy I am and proud of her for being able to put her life back together with dignity and courage.<p>I just don't know. She and I (XW) don't communicate much at her choice...<p>Thanks all again for your insight and support.<p>I wish you all a Blessed Easter.<p>E

Elad, you'll get no judgments from me. I think you're very courageous to tell your full story here. I agree with WAT that you should follow up with a Plan B letter, that way there is no doubt what you mean.<p>Your XW may not want to communicate with you but I think sending her a letter is a good idea. Many, many years ago a man I was engaged to cheated on me and I broke it off immediately and walked away telling him to never contact me again. Strangely, right after D-day with my H last June, I ran into my X-fiancee at the grocery store. He had just moved back to our town and he told me he had been trying to reach me. His reason - to apologize for his affair when we were engaged. He is now happily married and honestly it allowed me to see that his A, as wrong as it was, led us each to a different place and a different life. It made me realize that our breakup was for the best. So I say send the letter and lose the guilt because you can't change what happened but you can accept the responsibility and apologize.<p>Happy Easter and prayers for you and your W.

Morning ELad,<p>Since you mentioned it would be alright to ask a few questions, I think I may. Dave already asked one I was wondering about .... but I do have others.<p>If you hesitate in answering any specific question, I do understand. They are quite personal.<p>~ Did you have children in your 1st marriage?<p>~ Did your x-W do any sort of Plan A during the A?<p>~ How long did the A last before your D, and how long after your D did you marry OW (your WW)?<p>~ When did the problems, not necessarily the A, start in your encumbant marriage? Was it a blissful union throughout the 10 year term?<p>~ Had your WW ever been an OP before she met you?<p>I honestly don't mean to add to you pain, ELad. And perhaps anwering these questions may do so. Please know if you decide to skip this post, I would understand.<p>In regard to contacting your x-W. As you may remember my x-H continued to try and contact me, at my insistence to stop. His last attempt, a BDay card, he had written some things that cut right to the very core. His card was self serving and had nothing to do with helping me. Remembering this happened only 6 months after our D. So my emotions were still very raw. The card hurt me tremendously.<p>In your situation it's been 10 years for your x-W to heal, and like you said, she's in a new life now. I think it would be an appropriate thing to do, sending her a letter of apology. How I look at it is forgiveness is something you do for yourself, you offer it to her and she can accept it or not, her choice. But you have made amends with God and your conscience. You humble yourself and rebuff your ego. It's pure and Christ-like. My guess is she will be forgiving, even compassionate, E. Send it.<p>Love,
Jo<p>[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Elad,<p>Sounds like you're in a good place right now and have some peace.<p>I agree with touching base with the ex-W. I would welcome such a letter from my ex-H. He has never taken responsibility for his A and all his subsequent vindictive behavior. It's been over a decade, but I would still appreciate knowing that HE knows what he did was wrong and that *I* didn't deserve it.<p>I'm not sure I would believe it if he did send such a letter--I'd probably wonder what new knife he had poised at my back--but he has been especially evil to me and my children. Still, I might not let my guard down, but I wouldn't mind giving someone like him the opportunity to make amends for behavior they regret so they could satisfy their conscience.<p>Now for my selfish request [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] : If you ever feel up to it, I would greatly appreciate your perspective on my situation, where my H was the BS in his previous 2 marriages (as was I in my previous M, and our commonality on this issue is a lot of what helped us to feel safe marrying each other). So, his situation is reversed from yours--first a BS, then a WS (to me, the only faithful W).<p>His first M lasted a few months, the second 5 years, ours going on 11 years. He divorced both ex-Ws because of their adultery--"The trust was gone". My first M was 17 years, and my H referred to my track record of faithfulness to one man as part of what attracted him to me and caused him to want to marry me, because I was "good to the bone".<p>Any observations from your dual experience would probably be helpful to me and most welcome. Thanks.

TD, Jo, Conquerer:<p>Thanks again for your support, wisdom and suggestions.<p>I will revisit the letter to my XW and see if I can make sure in my mind that I am not trying to be self-serving. I don't think I am and that I can feel comfortable (as much as that's possible) about sending it without opening old wounds. I know the letter as written now lets her know that she has no reason to believe what I say because she has no reason to trust me and that she is well within her rights to not read it.<p> Jo I will try to answer your questions as honestly as I can...<p>~ Did you have children in your 1st marriage?<p>No children in either marriage.<p>~ Did your x-W do any sort of Plan A during the A?<p>Yes, although she and I did not know anything about plan A. She did change a lot. Much of it was good for her. She became more outgoing and more focused on our marriage and me. (part of our problem was a long-standing issue of Elad coming in third or fourth place in our marriage...which she (XW) acknowledged.) She had grown distant over the years (we were married for nearly 20 years) and had focused on spending time and effort on other things. I think the dog got more attention than I did--really!! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Unfortunately, I heard thru mutual friends that after she re-married she kind of withdrew and lost some of the improvements her plan A had given her personality. <p>~ How long did the A last before your D, and how long after your D did you marry OW (your WW)?<p>A lasted about a year, maybe a bit more...WW and I were married about 18 months after my divorce was final, although we lived together prior to getting married.<p>~ When did the problems, not necessarily the A, start in your encumbant marriage? Was it a blissful union throughout the 10 year term?<p>The answer to this depends on who you talk to. My WW would say that it had been a couple of years that she hadn&#8217;t felt right about the M and wasn&#8217;t happy. I disagree with that because I know we were doing things and she was telling me stuff that indicated she was very happy and content. I thought things were fine up until about six months prior to d-day. And even at that, I had no idea that we were dealing with infidelity and a third party in our marriage until d-day. It hit me like a ton of bricks. <p>Was it blissful? It was the happiest marriage I knew of. I know I was very happy. We were the ones that everyone said would be the last to have this happen. Go figure&#8230; <p>~ Had your WW ever been an OP before she met you?<p>Yes. She had been involved in a brief fling while still in college. She had been very honest with me about this long before we even came close to getting married and I had no reason to believe it would be something she could or would do again. (This is an honest answer to your question and, quite frankly, I can see people here clucking their tongues and getting ready to tell me how foolish I was to take the chance. That may be so, but I did based on how I felt and what I thought and most importantly how my WW treated me. I guess what I am saying is that I really don&#8217;t need to be second guessed here. I hope people will appreciate that.) <p>Those are the best answers I can give you, Jo. I am trying to be as honest as I can. If you have other questions I will try to answer those frankly and honestly. <p> Conquerer <p>You know how painful it can be to be a BS. As I mentioned in one of my posts above, I know there is also a lot of pain as the WS, but the BS has the worst of it in large part due to a loss of control of their situation and, to a certain extent, a feeling that life has spun out of control. It really seems like everything they knew is now upside down and inside out.<p>I know for me that when I was the WS, I went into my relationship and marriage with my WW knowing that I could never be the instigator of a situation like that again. I know you can never say never, but I also know how strongly I felt. I was determined never to inflict that type of pain on someone else or on myself ever again--ever.<p>Being the WS hurt a lot. There is so much guilt, loss of respect, separation anxiety and pain. To me it was almost physical.<p>I told my WW last week that the only way I made it thru that was the fact that she was 100% focused on me and helped me through the pain and totally, totally made me the most important (only)thing in her life. When we became involved she was the OP and single with no attachments at all (no boyfriend, no SO). <p>What I told her also, and I really believe this is important and why a lot of these situations don&#8217;t survive, is that if you have two WS leaving a spouse and family, that they just cannot give their relationship the proper attention that it will need due to the pain of leaving their primary relationship (possibly including children) and the &#8220;pull&#8221; that has on them and the guilt involved. Obviously there are exceptions to this but that is my impression based on my experience.<p>Personally, I know that this situation has furthered my resolve not to cause the pain involved with anyone. I mean how could it not, right? <p>I don&#8217;t know if this is what you were looking for in response to your question. If there is some specific question you have I would try to answer it. <p>I will say this: I am not sure how I could go through the pain of being a BS twice, and, knowing that, become a WS. I am not trying to judge your H. I am just saying from my experience there is just too much pain involved. <p>But then, the fog can get to anyone. I never thought I would ever be a WS in my first marriage either.

Take care<p>E

Elad,
I think perhaps the longer a person is here on MB, the more you realize how your past actions are steps to where you find yourself. Making a decision to never put yourself in the position of being a WS is a good one. You may not have realized how shaky a ground (the affair) you started your 2nd marriage on, now as your W has become wayward, you know.<p>And, knowledge can usually be used positively.<p>I've got a similiar BS/WS mix in my background. Sometimes I want to tell people--"really, I'm a nice person!" but niceness doesn't make a lot of difference, I think honor does. I don't want to become either of those ever again, I can't control the BS part of it of course, but I can be a good wife and partner and stay out of the situations I can control that led to becoming a WS.<p>I hope Plan B leads to healing and peace for you.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lor (Lor):
<strong>Sometimes I want to tell people--"really, I'm a nice person!" but niceness doesn't make a lot of difference, I think honor does. I don't want to become either of those ever again, I can't control the BS part of it of course, but I can be a good wife and partner and stay out of the situations I can control that led to becoming a WS.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Lor---Sometimes I want to scream "really I'm a nice person!" LOL...<p>
I am glad you can relate a little. I have completely stayed out of the situations right now that could even remotely lead to another relationship. Last week my WW asked if i wanted to see someone or wanted to take my ring off, date etc....<p>Outside of creating havoc for one other soul in all of this, the big answer to that questions is that I am still married. And even if she doesn't see that right now...I DO!!!<p>It's all part of the fog...I know it 'cause I experienced it. About all I could tell her is that some day--a month, six months, a year or ten years from now she will understand. <p>E

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>ELad Wrote:<p>I told my WW last week that the only way I made it thru that was the fact that she was 100% focused on me and helped me through the pain and totally, totally made me the most important (only)thing in her life. When we became involved she was the OP and single with no attachments at all (no boyfriend, no SO). <p>What I told her also, and I really believe this is important and why a lot of these situations don&#8217;t survive, is that if you have two WS leaving a spouse and family, that they just cannot give their relationship the proper attention that it will need due to the pain of leaving their primary relationship (possibly including children) and the &#8220;pull&#8221; that has on them and the guilt involved.<hr></blockquote><p>Say ELad,<p>Are you saying as long as you were the focus of all your WW's (then OP) attention, you felt less or no guilt. Did you ever think about your BW or what her struggles might have been?<p>And if you did, did you rationalize them or justify them away? Did it work, did they go away? What did you tell yourself?<p>Did the fact your marriage was an A-based marriage ever spawn fights or under-current between you and new-wife? <p>Thanks for helping me understand.<p>Jo<p>[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Elad:
<strong>I will say this: I am not sure how I could go through the pain of being a BS twice, and, knowing that, become a WS. I am not trying to judge your H. I am just saying from my experience there is just too much pain involved. <p>But then, the fog can get to anyone. I never thought I would ever be a WS in my first marriage either.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks, Elad. This is still a real sticking point for me because I cannot give my H the benefit of the doubt that he didn't know what he was doing to me--he knew intimately how I felt as it was happening and how I was going to feel when I discovered my suspicions were correct. I consider it malice aforethought.<p>This is why one of my first reactions was that I would have given my first H a chance to reconcile (if he wasn't currently married) before I would have considered reconciling with this one. And if you knew the history of what my first H has done to me, you would be able to appreciate how evil I thought this H was to do what he did.<p>Then at other times I remember my mindset during this M. Within the first few months, I was feeling empathy for my ex-H realizing that what I was feeling (unmet ENs, feeling unloved, alone) was likely how he felt. I had read HNHN between marriages and understood about ENs and no matter how hard you try to follow the Golden Rule it won't do a bit of good if both spouses have different ENs. I remember writing in my journal how awful it was to realize that I felt more lonely now than I had when I was single.<p>At the same time, I felt I understood why my H's previous Ws were vulnerable to doing what they did. I could picture them feeling exactly the way I was feeling. It was at this point that I understood how vulnerable *I* was to an A--Feeling alone and abandoned, unmet ENs, empathizing with my WS ex-H and my H's WS ex-Ws.<p>In looking back, when I really dig down and am honest with myself, the thought processes that helped me to avoid an A did not include concern for how it would make him feel. What would finally stop me from going down that road was a combination of 2 things:<p>My reason--I was able to reason that if the man who married me and PROMISED to love and cherish me wasn't doing it, then it just wasn't realistic to expect a man preying upon an unhappily married woman to do so.<p>My sense of self--It was the betrayal of myself that was the final line I was not able to cross. I knew it would destroy my perception of who I was. The very fact that I was identifying with my ex-H internally was frightening enough, but to do so in deed as well would have made me "just like him", a person I could not respect or like. I couldn't face losing myself along with everything else.<p>So, I guess my mind can process that my H may have gone through similar thought processes and just didn't have as strong a sense of self as I did. IOW, in the final analysis, I didn't care any more about how it would affect him than he did about how it would affect me. But my heart still screams, "But he KNEW what it would do to me, and he did it anyway."<p>And part of that is that I spent the entire M with a man PURPOSELY withholding from me (he admits this) what I needed, and I feel heroic? in some way that in spite of that I protected the M from my weaknesses and vulnerabilities and continued to meet his ENs. It was only when life dealt me too many tragedies and health problems one on top of the other that I dropped the ball and failed to meet his ENs. It was also at this time that my decade of unmet ENs reached critical mass as I needed him more than ever to get through what at that point was the worst time of my life.<p>Instead of being there for me and helping me through it, he was cruel, mean, and demanding, and ultimately totally abandoned me when I needed him most. So, it feels so unfair for so many reasons. In a sense, I was the one ENTITLED to have an A (or at least that's how I sometimes think of it in my Taker moments [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ), and here he was for the first time in the M having to deal with what I'd been dealing with all along, and he caves.<p>For me, there's a lot of resentment to get over, I guess. Your statement of the determination you had to never inflict that type of pain again is encouraging. Maybe my H feels the same way now that he's not only the recipient of it, but also the one responsible for inflicting it. It's kind of funny that you feel that the BS has the most pain because through this I've more than once felt that in spite of how painful it is, I think given a choice I'd rather feel this pain than have the pain of knowing I was responsible for causing this pain in another.<p>[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Jo:<p>Let me see if I can make some sense of this for you.<p>You asked ~ Are you saying as long as you were the focus of all your WW's (then OP) attention, you felt less or no guilt. <p>I did feel guilty--no questions about it--but by having her (OP) focused entirely on me it was something that got me thru that and helped with the anxiety I felt from leaving (and of course the pain and guilt it all caused). Extremely selfish I know... <p>The point I was trying to make to my WW--that is, that because all she had to focus on was me, and that she could do that, it made the transition possible despite the guilt and pain. She was meeting all of my ENs. <p>I think it is twice as difficult and in many cases impossible when you have two people (WSs) going through the same guilt and pain of separation from someone they love and care about and neither emotionally prepared to deal with the other's pain. Obviously some people just don't care and so it is not as big of a problem, but then those people are probably facing even more problems down the raod due to some emotional vacancy. <p>But when you have two WS getting together who do have a lot of feelings and stand to lose a lot include a spouse, kids' feelings and respect it is much harder for the new relationship to ultimately survive it, because ultimately neither will be able to meet the other's ENs. Does that make sense? <p>You asked ~ Did you ever think about your BW or what her struggles might have been?<p>Of course I did. I'm far from heartless. Although some (many) might argue that. I thought about it a lot. That's the trap you find yourself in as a WS and ultimately leads to a lot of fence sitting.<p>You asked ~ And if you did, did you rationalize them or justify them away? Did it work, did they go away? What did you tell yourself?<p>You know, I don't really remember how I dealt with them all exactly. I think I probably did rationalize to a certain extent and maybe even convinced myself that life with my XW was worse than maybe it was. That's a hard thing to admit. But there has to be a certain amount of rationalization that takes place to allow you as a WS to live with the pain you feel and to live with the pain you have caused. <p>Obviously, as you can tell by the conflicting feelings I have about the letter to my XW, they have not totally gone away. Even after 11 years.<p>You asked ~ Did the fact your marriage was an A-based marriage ever spawn fights or under-current between you and new-wife? <p>No. Nothing that I can recall. Perhaps it should have and perhaps we should have trusted each other less. Although I never did anything in my current marriage to make me not worthy of my W's trust. And in the years leading up to my WW's A I would have trusted her with anything.
In fact I did--I trusted her with my heart and my life.

I hope this helps Jo---they are honest answers to some tough questions...<p>Conquerer:<p>You wrote ~ It's kind of funny that you feel that the BS has the most pain because through this I've more than once felt that in spite of how painful it is, I think given a choice I'd rather feel this pain than have the pain of knowing I was responsible for causing this pain in another.<p>All I know is that for me not to have control and to see what is happening in my life is much more painful than being the person who caused it. You make a good point, however.<p>I can see you are holding a lot of resentment by your post. I did too, but I believe:<p>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.<p>You can't heal til you let it go...and only you can decide when to do that.<p>Peace...<p>E