C...Here's the link I was looking for...wow..that was back in August! Seems like years away now.
T
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/004294.html

Twyla,<p>That makes a whole lot of sense. Since I had my little moment of revelation, I've been wondering about whether I should just sit him down and explain it just like I did above--that at bottom we have everything in common, i.e. wanting the same things, but impossible to have them. That we should start from that point of agreement and commonality, that we have to get through the difficult process of grieving the old and building the new, and that the only way to do that adequately is together. We're in it together, and we need to work together to get out of it.<p>But what you're saying about kind of a renewed Plan A sounds like a better first step because even though I've been very efficient at avoiding the Big 3 LBs, I have not been as diligent with his specific LB of me being on the computer too much, especially when I could be spending time with him (which would almost exclusively be watching TV, but still, it would probably help him to feel that I liked him if I acted like I preferred being near him to being on the computer, given the choice).<p>And the computer time also contributes to less time on DS, one of his top 5 ENs, so I've really been trying to wean myself off. I've been fearful of letting go because it has been the only place I feel safe expressing myself without being hurt or pressured, and I also rationalized that if HE would just be a safe place for me to process all this, I'd be doing it with him instead, and I'd want to be with him all the time.<p>As usual, someone has to get the ball rolling in a different direction, and I'm the elected one again. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] So, that's how I'll proceed:<p>

• Increased effort to maintain an improved Plan A--may be time to request that he fill out the questionnaires for me
• Be more open and honest about the A issues as they present themselves
• Be ready to present my case for doing the hard work of recovery together when the opportunity arises

[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

I am smiling. I am so excited, you got it!
How bout a POJA for him? For as much time that we can do something other than watch TV I will not go on the computer.
My H used to complain about me coming here - he said it made me dwell on the affair. He couldnt understand I would DWELL on the A anyway just quietly and miserably.
Good luck C.

Ack..I lost my reply!<p>Read your post about talking with the Harleys..that expression your H used..saw it many times. <p>What does that tell you? He obviously isn't too impressed with what he's seen so far. And I'll bet he feels like recovery is a free-for-all when it comes to condemning him for the A. Whether you intended for him to feel this way, even if you TOLD him word-for-word it wouldn't be that way..something is making him hold onto that belief.<p>I just read the above over again and I realized that sounded like a BIG critism towards you..and I really didn't mean it to. As I said..I lived thru the "eye-rolling, we don't need MC, you just need time to get over it" phase..it depressed me, made me anxious, made me feel insignificant. But it was my fault that he had that impression..I got more depressed each time I failed to interest him, more prone to withdrawal, anger, and really didn't act like a very loving person. <p>Again, that's when I renewed my plan A (even though there was no OW in sight) dropped pushing for relationship talks and recovery activities...went for the 15-20 hours a week of recreation, and really erased my LB's. In short, I went for the relationship...I did it HIS way.."just get over it and spend more time together" was his recovery philosophy.<p>I did keep a copy of HNHN and Love Busters right out on the bedside table and would read and review them nightly. If he made a comment about them (and he did) I'd say something like "Hey, I want you to be happy and I want to be happy with you..I realize I need some work in certain areas and this helps me understand how to be happy." All said with a smile and a cheerful attitude.<p>Or my favorite.."wow, I really close myself off from you when I get irritated..hey, sorry, I'll try not to do it..let me know if I do OK?"<p>In short, I think he thought I was doing all this for myself and let him off the hook!<p>If you want him to climb on board with the MB stuff..you've almost got to present yourself as the MB poster child..strong, self confident, happy, and willing to love. For some stubborn lugs..seeing is believing. At least, that's how mine was.<p>And C, it was tough sometimes not to bring up my unhappiness. My needs were barely being met the way I wanted..but I did notice he seemed happier, more willing to initiate an outing, quicker to get home after work..little things. Hugs, signs of affection became more frequent. If he did catch me in a down day I would tell him.."this recovery stuff is hard..guess I need some more time to get the hang of it"..maybe thank him for some small consideration.."thanks for noticing I'm down...you good at comforting"..but NEVER did I make him feel like it was his fault. <p>It was after about 3 weeks of this that I did ask him to look at one thing (I picked the one I knew was close to his heart..SF..and to just read about it and for us to exchange some thoughts..stuff we always wanted to do, but never really tried. He gave his standard "everything" is fine, so I said I really like to try all over body oil massage..we had a ball. And it opened up some conversation.<p>Occasionally I'd do that with some other topic in an offhand way. "Hey this book talks about attractiveness of the spouse..think I need a push up bra and hot pants..or should I just get naked?"<p>I don't know if you're a "you" person (ie..you never want to do anything but watch TV) but I was..and that had to go..and be replaced by "I'd love to watch some TV with you then how about we go for icecream after my butt gets sore?"<p>Instead of "you got the wrong thing..don't you ever listen" I turned it into.."gee, I didn't make myself clear..I really wanted chocolate. Well let's just smother this stuff in strawberries and have a feast."<p>It's all about making him feel good about you and your changes..then they are more willing to check out what has changed you..but not if it's pushed at them.<p>You know it took at least a year after Dday until he was willing to admit the A was 18 mos long..before that it was always "I don't remember, why does it matter"..general avoidance. It's taken till now..almost 9 months of "safe" behavior for him to look at factors in his life that made the A possible.<p>So what I'm proposing is NOT for the faint hearted..it takes some time.<p>What do you think?
T

Yeah... I think it would be gooooood to explain. We introduced MB to some friends of ours--fairly newlyweds. Every time the H mentioned the words love buster, pretty soon those two words became love busters for the W!! She told him, "Every time you say LOVE BUSTER, it is a love buster!!" [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] She didn't want to hear it anymore! So we were thinking, NOW WHAT??!!<p>Eventually, they filled out the questionnaires and got past it, but I think it started with them being willing to be a little bit more communicative.<p>If you say the words you described above, I don't see how in the world your H could insist on you going through with something that affects you so negatively. Good luck!!! & HUGS too! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Twyla,
You are so right. It was the same for me. I read all the books and had a plan to make things better, he just wanted to forget it.
After about 6 months of talking about our homework I became resentful that I was the one reading and planning our recovery. I would test him by not doing it and seeing if he would. Like I would not read our nightly homework and see if he would say you didnt read tonight. YA RIGHT - he didnt.
You see I took it very personally if he didnt follow MY plan for recovery, I thought if he didnt follow my plan it meant he didnt care about our marriage or fixing it. When he said it reminded him of what a creep he was I would say no honey you made a mistake - but inside I said YA YOU CREEP glad you see it, maybe if you feel bad enough you wont ever do it again.

It took a lot of personal searching to let go of that thinking.
I really took some kind of comfort that he felt like a bad person. In my mind the worse he felt about what he did = less chance he do it again.
In reality the worse he feels about himself = more need to find comfort.<p> I started looking at the progress husband was making and the real changes I had seen. I realized MY plan was not the only plan. Just because he wasnt following my plan for recovery (the right one of course [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] didnt mean he didnt want our marriage back.
I made him go to MB conference with me. We enjoyed it and I think it was good for H to see so many people in the same boat. I was all gung ho about the 20 week follow up internet course. I tried to make him do the homework, pouted when he didnt,you dont love me..... (rolling my eyes)
Finally I gave up and we have a comprimise of sorts. I dont dwell on recovery and we are recovering anyway, with a lot less guilt/shame for H.
You know what? I have to admit his plan is a lot more fun! I still read and like Twyla I say I read something interesting would you like to hear it? He can say no without me feeling like he just said "I hate you".
He is a lot more comforting now on my bad days. He says "I dont understand but I love you anyway".
I have regained my feeling of pride in my H. OK so he cheated BUT he had the guts to tell me and be honest and face the people he works with and tell the truth. He also even told some people at work not to make his mistake, it wasnt worth it.
I still greive the loss of the marriage I wanted. I really wanted my H to be able to tell my D when she was grown that he had always been true to me.
This experience has made me a better person though.(not that I want to do it again though)

BTDT,<p>I'm going to try the open approach next time anything like that comes up. Have no idea how he'll respond, and at this point I'm having a hard time caring about his response. I'll do it mostly because I think I need to practice doing that. I'll never forget a talk I attended by a woman who had been raped in her own backyard. She shared her experience, mostly regarding her recovery from the rape. It amazed me when she talked about the 'positives' of the experience--who would ever think there would be any!?!<p>She said she realized that she had been 'raped' all her life. She had spent her entire life allowing people to hurt her in big and small ways, and the trauma of the rape and people's reactions to her and her pain helped illuminate that for her. She said she finally realized that it was okay to say "ouch" when someone hurts you, that we are not obligated to bite our lip and suffer in silence so the person inflicting the pain (and others) can be insulated from it.<p>This was in the context of being a Christian BTW, her point being that turning the other cheek doesn't require silence about the pain inflicted on the first cheek.<p>I still struggle with the same thing that she described--remaining silent when someone hurts me instead of saying "ouch"--so I'm going to continue to work on that because the alternative is to build up resentment and that particular cache is full to overflowing here and in danger of boiling over bigtime.<p>T and SP,<p>You may be perfectly right that your approach is the preferred or ideal one in a case like this. But I've gotten to the point where I don't care enough to do it like that anymore. Been doing it for 11 years, been babying him, placating him, doing everything in the world to help HIM feel good about himself, been kissing his a$$ for 11 years. I'm tired, dead tired. I don't care whether he feels safe. I'm way too busy protecting myself from him to worry about his safety.<p>Our problems did not start with his A. The A is the just the pinnacle of the disrespect, disregard and double standard he has heaped on me for 11 years. I'm just plain sick of it. I feel like I have done the miraculous to continue living with him all these months and to refrain from slapping his face when I see that look on it. I am so done.<p>Maybe if I valued the R enough, your more catering approach would appeal to me. But my limits are already reached. I am nice to him. I don't LB him. My treatment of him is in a completely different universe than it would be if the situation were reversed. I'm already at the limits of my endurance and am doing the best I can. Doing it your way appeals to me the way a suggestion to kiss my rapist while he rapes me would. Don't care how wise it may be and how well it may "work", just don't have it in me to do it any more.<p>I think the main reason Dr. Harley felt it was urgent was because he could tell where *I* was. I'm the one on my way to having an A, and he wants me to give my H the warning that most BS don't get. It is also true that if my H doesn't deal with his issues, he is likely to have another A, but I think Dr. Harley could sense it was more of an emergency in my case.<p>As it turned out, I ended up drinking last night, maybe even specifically to avoid the confrontation. Drinking tends to make me "amorous", so I was trying to make out with him in the car. As usual, he wasn't very eager. And by the time we got home, he was only interested in eating and watching TV. Once again, I gave up in defeat and went to bed.<p>Eleven years in the desert is a long time. I want to be loved. I want to be wanted. I can't help how I feel, and what I feel is valid. I have been taking care of him and his feelings for so long. I thought with the A and his apparent remorse on D-day that everything would change, that we could start over and do it right this time, that *I* would FINALLY matter, that *I* would finally be a person in this M instead of a prop.<p>Oh well, got to get through today now. Thanks for listening.

C,
UH, I did not mean to say my approach was "the preferred" or "right" approach. What I meant to say was that MY plan was not the ONLY plan.
I had to laugh at the idea that you think I "cater" to my H. I will let him know how lucky he is, he had NO idea.
I see that you are tired. You feel defeated. Maybe you are right. I also agree that he should know how seething and bitter you feel tward him.
Whats the deal with the drinking?
From reading your posts you are unhappy and bitter but yet you dont believe in divorce, you would rather co-habitate in silence. YOu think it cannot be better between you. You think you have told him what you need multiple times and he doesnt care enough to listen.
Why is he sticking around?
Who would you like to have an affair with? Got someone in mind?
Your having a bad day I hope tomorrow is better.
Lisa

Lisa,<p>I wasn't trying to be snotty or anything like that. I respect you and Twyla and appreciate your insight. What I was trying to say is that no matter how much I may be able to see the merits in dealing with it the way you're talking about or even any other way, I'm having a terrible time trying to summon up the energy to care about what I should do, much less do it. And I've been doing it his way for years. His way led us into hell.<p>The honeymoon is over, and I'm facing that yes, indeed, my life is still sh** and all the A did was pile yet more sh** on top. Nothing is going to get better. I definitely need to get myself together, but now it will be in preparation for getting out.<p>I provided him that safe place for many years after his experiences with his first two wives, and he STILL withheld from me what I needed all the way to the point of giving it to someone else. I just don't know anymore what I could possibly do that I haven't already done multiple times, and even if there is something I haven't already tried, I can't seem to find the energy to do it. At least back then I had motivation and I had hope. I still loved him then and I still had hope that he would someday love me the way I needed to be loved.<p>I don't love him anymore, and he still won't love me the way I need to be loved. My hope is gone. Even when all was seemingly lost, I dug down and managed to eek out this last 6-1/2 months. I've been digging, but I can't find anything anymore. I'm empty. I'm used up.<p>The drinking is my way of dealing/not dealing with being there--"their" place. That was the only alternative he offered me (taking me with him instead of ceasing to go there himself). I was offered the back seat once again. And I stupidly took it. No POJA there, just me giving in again because he "would die without it".<p>I believe in divorce. I've just resisted it because I know what it does to kids. ALL of my motivation for the last 2-1/2 months has been about them.<p>I believe he is sticking around because he doesn't want to face that he's a 3-time loser and admit to his family that it's his fault this time (previous 2 times he was able to blame it solely on the cheating wife). Maybe he thinks he won't be able to get another woman like me--women like the OW, maybe--but most women like me are not going to be interested in a man who has been divorced three times and cheated on his last wife.<p>Even in my case, it took a lot of seeing his family and church family, the people he grew up with, and getting to know him in that setting to overcome his two marital failures in my eyes. If he had had his current history when I met him, I wouldn't have given him the time of day.<p>And his biggest complaints about the OW were her demands (how many demands could a woman willing to care for him like he was a quadriplegic have?) and her lack of intelligence and inability to keep up with his sense of humor.<p>So, when you put that together with his complaints about me, what I come up with is that he wants a woman with a Mensa-level IQ who can appreciate and laugh at his jokes while she waits on him hand and foot and wants sex constantly so that he can reject her. Plus, she has to keep the house spotless without any help from him and keep the kids quiet and never bothering him, and her job can't ever interfere with her serving of him, but she has to have a job because he's not about to wear himself out for more than 4 hours a day to make sure he makes enough to pay all the bills.<p>Any takers? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>The scary part about me, Lisa, is that I don't have anyone in particular in mind. It wouldn't even matter. That's how far gone I am. Always in the past I managed to hang on because I had hope for my M. Now I have none and the drug of being wanted after feeling unwanted for so many years is very strong. I don't plan on having an A. If I find myself attracted to someone, I'll just file the papers and call it quits.<p>I have no need for revenge. I just want to be wanted for a change. Before I become a senior citizen, I'd like to know what it feels like to be chosen, to be in first place, to be wanted more than anything or anyone else, even if only for a short time. I don't want to end up being an old lady who's never experienced love.

C,
Then why not plan B?
T

Plan B requires too much energy that I don't currently have. I have to finish the papers, file them, get someone to serve them, put up with him ranting and raving at me until I can get a court order to get him out. It's taking everything I've got just to get the bare minimum of my job done in order to not lose my job. I'm going to the doctor this morning, maybe she can help me find some energy somewhere.<p>Need to get my ducks in a row first. Need to be on top of my job making as much as I can in order to survive without his income. Kind of a catch-22. Being around him makes me depressed. Being so depressed makes it hard for me to do my job. Without maximum work output, can't survive. Figure my first order of business is to increase my productivity, which will increase my income and enable me to survive financially without him.<p>Also, for some strange reason, I still feel obligated to give him warning one last time before I lower the boom, but haven't had the energy to do that either. Tired of all the excuses and broken promises. Don't want to hear them anymore.<p>Maybe this downward spiral has something to do with the fact that I've been bleeding for three weeks, which is why I'm going to the doctor today. Maybe I'll feel better when that is resolved.<p>--------------------------
I'm back from the doctor, and I do feel better, maybe because I did something for myself. Talking to her probably helped the most. She upped my Wellbutrin and ordered labs. Since I hadn't eaten anything I was able to go get those done right away, and when I go back after the lab work comes back, I'll get the Pap and pelvic done. So at least I'm seeing to my health matters.<p>I started feeling some motivation on the way home to at least get busy on my job. Nothing I've done so far has helped me feel better, so maybe focusing on that for awhile will help. I really want to get me back. I'm tired of this thing defining me and being who I am. I want to get back to who I was before he came into my life. I miss her a lot.<p>[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>