The WS sayes she is feeling stifled. I am afraid to leave her side. After reading "Surviving the affair" and a whole lot of posts on this board. Everything says spend time together to work on Marriage. W feels like she is on lock down. I am afraid she will use time alone to contact OM. The only effort WS has made is to contact a marriage counselor. WS feels most of the opinions on this board are extreme. WS came home on Thursday and said she wanted to work her A#$ off to save this M. Now she feels stifled. Should I back off?<p>Husband of InaFunk

yes, you need to back off a bit. If she is feeling "stifled", that means it's an LB, so you need to avoid that. One thing the Harleys say is avoiding LB's is the MOST important thing!!! No preaching, teaching, nagging, begging, selfish demands, etc. <p>Give her some space. It's hard, I know. It's great that she contacted a counselor, and great that she comes here. Rome wasn't built in a day. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Work on only saying positive things to her. That you want to be married. You choose her. You love her. You want to learn whatever you need to in order to better meet her needs. You respect her. <p>What are some things you are doing for YOU in Plan A? Have you identified her top 5 needs? <p>I'm so glad you 2 are here. You can do this!! We're here to help!<p>[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

It's hard, but you do need to give her space and time. My H was in the fog in such an intense way that we ended up separated for 9 mos. We did get back together and have been in and out of counseling for 6 years due to his A with my former best friend. It's not easy, but there is also no sense trying to talk to them when they are so confused. My MC told me it's like talking to somebody under anesthetic. She also said that he was depressed and when that's the case, you can only see the bad/negative things. <p>It was hard to do, but it worked for us. I don't think we'd be together if I had pushed things or if we hadn't separated. good luck

It is very common for a WS to promise more than they actually will deliver. My H promised he would do "anything" to save the M, which later in practice translated into "anything but this" and "anything but that". I know it's no comfort because you want to find the magic key to get through to her and help her to see what she's doing to you and to the M and to stop it.<p>We appear extreme to her because of that hindsight I told you both about. We've reached a place of understanding about our mistakes when we were at the juncture where the two of you are right now. Your W isn't hearing what she wants to hear, and you probably aren't either. Most of us came here wanting to get that magic answer that would make everything okay again.<p>The point of the extraordinary precautions is that they have to be voluntary. When a WS understands the destructiveness of what they are doing and the nature of the withdrawal from the OP, they usually welcome the help of the BS so they can get through it as quickly as possible. Your W doesn't appear to fall into that category, so once again you have to go back to looking at yourself and your choices.<p>As long as you and your W know that recovery cannot begin until after there is complete separation from the OM and after she has been through the worst symptoms of withdrawal, then you each will know your roles: Her role is to end contact with the OM and follow the extraordinary precautions to ensure no contact. So far, she is balking. So, then your role is Plan A, followed by Plan B.<p>Your role in Plan A is to FACILITATE and ENCOURAGE your W's separation from the OM. You do that by addressing your contributions to the deterioration of the M, taking responsibility for them, and correcting them, by interacting with your W without LBs, and by becoming an expert at meeting her most important ENs. By doing this, you will provide an attractive safe environment that will enable her to let go of the OM and the secret second life.<p>At the same time, you will be perfecting your relationship skills and becoming a "dream" partner. When the going got really tough and what my H was doing was shredding my heart to pieces or making me feel outraged, it sometimes helped me to keep going to reassure myself that even if my H didn't "deserve" or appreciate what I was doing, the skills I was perfecting would definitely be appreciated by my NEXT H.<p>And if my H was foolish enough to blow his chance at being my next H, then so be it, but in the meantime I was getting some great practice at being the best wife I can be. And he was only going to get away with mistreating me for a limited period of time because the Plan B train was coming. My point is that you can do whatever you need to do to make your Plan A the best possible before you move on to Plan B. Read everything you can about it and focus on what YOU are doing, not what she is doing.<p>If your W is willing, it would probably be helpful for her to fill out the LB and EN questionnaires. You can print these out from the website. These would give you a road map to follow in drafting your Plan A. When she is through withdrawal, she will be ready to learn your LBs and ENs.<p>Right now, you do have what she is saying to you to go on. If she doesn't want to be "stifled", then don't stifle her. She has been informed of the consequences of refusing to follow the extraordinary precautions to separate permanently from the OM, so it is her responsibility to follow through as she sees fit. We can't force her to believe us or Dr. Harley. Maybe she prefers to learn from experience.<p>While Dr. Harley recommends spending a minimum of 15 hours a week together in focused attention on each other, he also acknowledges that your efforts to meet your W's ENs will not do much good while she's still in contact with the OM or going through withdrawal. This is why avoiding LBs is the first step of Plan A.<p>Without permanent separation from the OM and the extraordinary precautions to confirm that, there will be no marital recovery. You, however, can work on your individual recovery from your W's adultery. You do not need her participation for that. Her input on the questionnaires is helpful, but not required. You can look at the questionnaires and answer them on her behalf based upon what you do know about your W, and that is at least a starting place.<p>I realize your W is LB-ing you big time, and the longer she does so, the lower her balance in your LBank will get. This is the risk she takes with her insistence on continuing the secret second life. And this is why Plan A has a time limit. Otherwise, you would lose your feelings for your W completely.<p>We will keep trying to help however we can.<p>[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

funkedup I know how you feel trust me, but fact of the matter is you cant be by her side 24x7. Why drive yourself and her nuts? do what you can to fix your part of the marriage and improve yourself. leave the invitation open to work onthe marriage and to meet her needs, but we cant force anything.. If she wants to contact him there really isnt anything you can do to stop it. she can always get a phone card call from work, sneak over to a pay phone get another e-mail account.<p>Juve give space and show her how understanding and patient you can be.<p>
-HI

Mr. Funk,
Just checkin on ya. You around? What do you think? Please let us know what we can do to help. <p>Faith1

THIS IS GONNA B LONG;
I beg to differ with the people on this board on certain key principles of MB. Always have. There are certain other BH's here whom would also say this approach has worked for them. Of course what works 4 some isn't neccessarily anyone else's best medicine. Funked, I am offering my story to you in the hopes that it provides you with other options. Have never posted this before, I guess I will relate it now.<p>Here goes Funked; I had a tough love approach from jump with WW admitting to the affair - explaining that my condition to try and make it work was solely (let me say that again.... solely) based on NO FURTHER CONTACT. I had assumed that she would take my word and back off because she knows me well enough to know I can become a ghost and also very harmful to OM. <p>Initially she failed. Far as I know didn't even try really. I think it's safe to say there was no PA going on after I returned but she was definitely leaving the door open and continuing an EA - which BTW almost destroyed me. <p>However I did not back off then and leave her - ONLY because I was reading SA about withdrawal and fog - and the good people here told me to expect slips. Believe me Funked, there are saints within these posts - some people here are so spot on it isn't funny.<p>She contacted him further by phone at her office and met him once in a mall on his birthday - for 20 minutes - and guess what? It was all documented by a PI. NEVER settle for the word of a person whom has lied to you even once Funked. I knew what had to be done for my own peace of mind so my ear was on the ground and my eye in the sky - and I saw and heard true horror. <p>The bottom line with her actually seeing him was I WAS GONE, OUT DA DOOR. No way around it - I have enough dignity to know where I am not wanted - and enough self esteem left to know I can do better than the likes of her. I said all this and SO much more to her that night - LB'ed like crazy and was G.O.N.E.<p>What happened? She came out of her fog. She saw what she brought me to, saw the pain and anger and anguish. WW never said this to me that night - I saw it come into her face - into her eyes. She cried all night - for like 7 hours. Her tears brought my anger to a dull roar and I - yet again - came on the boards here and was relieved to find people telling me to give her one more chance - when all my friends said "get the hell away from her now!!" <p>She later said she saw the life force draining out of me because of her and it killed her. <p>The end result is she hasn't contacted him except for a phone call that I overheard the contents of - wherin she berated him and told him to leave her alone - that she didn't want him anymore.<p>When I found out her job was facilitating contact I conditioned that regardless of financial difficulties she would have to leave it or I would leave her that very day. She agreed. <p>I am still not done. We r now moving out of the country (in like three hours!!) - I have spent almost every moment with her since - which bothers me every much as it does her sometimes. Stifled is a two way street mano, I hate having to play bodygaurd to a woman I once trusted with my life. But to me it's neccessary. If she can't agree to forego a little personal time and convenience to fix us and help save us - just as I have to forego my own - well it's not worth saving. That is not anger, pride, or anything else other than reality. <p>Without a doubt - according to my WW - had I NOT appraoched her that night and lost it and left - she wouldn't have seen any light. She was snapped out of it; and of anything I have not believed from her since Dday - I believe this otherwise I would be in the divorce forum. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My advise to you Funked - give her only as much space as you can without being driven further into pain. You need no more pain Funked - and when you are continually being stomped you have two choices - be a doormat or put your own foot down. You can get her away if she loves you - you can take a more proactive approach in stopping this bull$%^ in your life.

I am on and off the boards all day. Thanks for your concern. Ws made an appointment with counselor on Friday. I hope all goes well and we can agree on some boundaries. Until then I will try my best to plan A. I cant help to feel WS is somehow being rewarded for her actions. I am in love with her so plan A is not hard to do, but at the same time I resent her actions...... this is a very hard time.

Hope things are better for you, funked.<p>I'm glad Harley shared his story because it is true that each individual has their own limits and varying levels of knowledge of where their own limits are. Harley was 100% rock-bottom sure of where his boundary was, and I believe he would have followed through with the D, and I thought he would even when it seemed Genevieve had finally seen light. But like he said, he must have seen what he needed to see in her to give her what really amounted to a 3rd chance. And Genevieve probably knows he doesn't have any do-overs left now.<p>We all seem to reach that point of no return at some time or another. I was there before I was able to confirm my H's A. The only thing that turned me back to the M was his confession and asking for forgiveness and promising to do "anything" to save the M.<p>Then, there was discovery after discovery of more contact, and each time I fell more and more out of love with him. I hung on doing Plan A because I wanted to be able to walk away knowing I'd done everything I possibly could for my children's sake. (Harley--maybe it was easier for you because you two don't have children together?)<p>But when it got to a point where I was such a mess I didn't feel I could function adequately to do my best for my children, I reached my limit again. By this time I had pretty much lost all feeling for my H and asked him to leave. He refused. I told him I was not going to continue as we had been--that it was all or nothing--either we BOTH work on the M or *I* will go to court.<p>He kept saying he was "trying" (still going where OW works and refusing to take me with him among other things). My response: I started filling out the court papers. I was about halfway through when he asked me to tell him about Dr. Harley's plan of recovery and said he would now take me with him on league nights (where OW works) and that he had given notice to his teammates that he would no longer be in that league after they completed the season. He agreed to POJA and the 4 rules. If I were to discover contact now, I'd have those papers filed and him served so fast!<p>My point is that we all have our limits, but if you put your foot down and insist on no contact in order for the M to continue, you're going to have to back it up with action or there's no point. You have to mean it, and the partner has to know you mean it.<p>And there is no guarantee that it will have the effect it had on Genevieve or my H. I did the same thing with my ex-H--gave him a choice of married or single since he was being a cakeman. He chose to leave. I filed the next day. He wanted to come back 4 months later, but by then I was finished for good. So each person has to be sure that's what they want.<p>One of the values of Plan A is that it prepares you for the no contact of Plan B. If you go to Plan B too soon and you're still enmeshed with your spouse, you're going to go through the same withdrawal process that WS separating from the OP have to go through. With a reluctant WS, you naturally lose love for them when they are treating you so badly so that you get to a point where you're really ready for Plan B and you will be able to maintain no contact.<p>The risk to the WS, of course, is that you will lose your love from them completely, which is the alternate purpose of Plan A/Plan B for the BS. By the time you finish a 6-month Plan A and an 18-month Plan B, you will have worked through all your marital issues, corrected your flaws as a spouse, and learned everything you need to know to be ready for a high-quality relationship with someone new. You will be over your WS with no baggage to carry into your next R.

Part of her needing space probly has to do with the OM withdrawls. I didn't want to be in a room with my H while I thought about the OM and possibly got emotional. He tried that same demand...if we are going to work things out we have to spend time together so you have to do this. Well...demanding won't make her want to spend more time with you, trust me. YOU NEED TO WORK ON YOU...QUIT worrying about her right now. Yes...she NEEDS to break it off with the OM, she NEEDS to offer up all her passwords and quit giving herself a backdoor....but she may just not be ready for that yet. YOU need to worry about YOU right now...and if she sees real progress and commitment she'll come around in her own time. If she doesn't, well, then you haven't been wasting time because you've been working on yourself. And if you want to spend some time together, how about finding someplace new to hang out once in a while...some neutral ground that gives you both a chance to let your hair down and enjoy each other again? We've started doing several different things together. We go out more often to various places...and he wants to spend time with me and I'm on the computer...he JOINS me. We do Ebay together now and play a few games over the computer together. It's fun..and it's together. I hope you get there, it's a much better place to be!