I realize I've provided a few optimistic updates recently, and yes, I've felt pretty good by keeping my focus on me. But it's not easy to continue like this, given that WW still persists in holding onto OM very, very tightly. It does have a wearing effect, and it has been 7 months since d-day. I know next time I talk to Steve, he'll be asking me about what are my plans. I know previous times, he seemed to indicate separation would probably be needed along the way, sometime. I know she's considered leaving herself and rejected it at least once. But even though she says some promising things, she still behaves like a fool... and I'm sick of it.<p>So my current ponderings are along these lines...<p>Do I get tougher? In doing so, I risk LB'ing, but at the same time, deliver a realistic message - she needs to know there are boundaries. Things like, "You know, I don't want a divorce, but if this keeps up, I may need one." I balance that off with the fact that Plan B executed properly should do that for me, right? However, it doesn't exactly allow me to say some things that are on my mind. Am I being honest by holding back? Some of these things aren't really intended to be LB, but would probably be perceived that way. Then again, almost anything can, can't it now? Where's that line in the sand? The sand / fog is always shifting around me it seems, and I'm growing weary.<p>Once again this evening, she's going to be late... more OM. This past weekend, despite some nice moments, she also said things like, "I just wish I could have both of you", etc. - some doozies - pretty hard to not be insulted.<p>I'm starting to fear that my lack of action is allowing her to gradually pull away from me. That it will in fact make the transition to a J.R.-less life easier for her. It might be an irrational fear. Based on some of our behaviors lately, I hope the opposite is true. It's hard to read, and I know I shouldn't even try. But if I could, it would sure help me in the last of my Plan A. If there's some base I've missed. Some tactic to convey that I am capable of meeting all her EN. Just wanting to end this on the highest note possible - for myself.<p>In thinking about the main elements of her A, I've come up with these 4 things: control, respect, fantasy and unmet EN.<p>CONTROL<p>She admits that my talking to OM made her feel like she's lost control of things. That before, she'd constructed this dual life thing to let her feel more in-control. She also talks about how she's uncomfortable when she feels like she can't control me. When I exert my independence, for example, by saying I might want to travel if she were to go, etc. - that kind of thing bothers her.<p>Despite IC/MC saying that she feels anything but in-control, I think she likes to believe she can control things... can "buy time" to "figure things out"... but really what that means is buy time to have her dual life.<p>Her desire for control, I think has some telling foreshadowing for her behavior down the road.<p>RESPECT<p>I know for a fact she has zero respect for me by the time this had started. Recently, she admitted she'd regained a lot of it. Should I believe that, given they're just words? In any case, my self-respect is there, and I know she's seen that. But I'd have to question... by staying "silent" for so long, avoiding the hard issues (i.e. some of that nasty R talk!)... does that not say something in MY actions? Say that I'm willing to let her walk all over me, which in turn says something about my self-respect, which in turn allows her to disrespect me all the more?<p>I dunno. What would you respect more? Someone who speaks up, lays it all out? Or someone who's patient, kind and compassionate - but passive? Right... depends on the individual!<p>FANTASY<p>I know I've hurt that aspect of things by talking to OM (warning: consult a professional before attempting this yourself!!). She admits it was her "worst nightmare." She asked me recently if I regretted it at all. I said, "no."<p>But the fact that they're continuing makes me wonder if they're tuning it out. I suspect OM has LB'ed in the past, but don't know what his current approach is - and I don't really care, because I have no control over that. But it does become relevant to me, indirectly. Because if they are starting to "degrade," why stir things up even more. I want to come across as the most attractive option. She's even admitted a couple of times that I AM "best" for her.<p>I'm trying to think of other ways to erode her fantasy world. Short of telling our families or somehow revealing it at their work, I'm coming up blank. (And both of those options are not realistic anyhow.) And I know that most of you are thinking "Good!"... why interfere? You're not working on yourself! True... But reality is good... reality is healthy... Steve's advice to talk to OM was the ultimate expression of reality. I guess another reality is Plan B.<p>UNMET EN<p>One should believe there'd be a well-defined set of EN that I failed to meet, and that if I figure those out, I could address them, she'd notice, and by acknowledging change there, I'd be in a good spot.<p>It's funny because she's definitely noticed and acknowledged changes, but I have no clue about whether they're the real changes she's looking for, deep down. Just recently when she was saying she wanted both of us, she explained that OM met certain EN I couldn't. I very casually pointed out that I hoped that wasn't true, for my own future's sake.<p>I doubt she can even articulate what OM really does bring to her that I can't. I suspect adventure. He's foreign, has a different culture, etc. That's one EN I can't do a single thing about. Not sure how that one would play out, but sadly, it might be one of those things that takes 2-3 years to really make her life miserable. I'm not going to stick it out that long.<p>And the way she's strutted around the last while, I know her ego is highly inflated. I've read that romantic love is about two people supporting each other's egos in many ways... I'm in no position right now to support her 1,000 ton ego.<p>CONCLUSIONS??<p>I've been rethinking my plan. I'd recently thought about giving Plan A more time (maybe 2 months), based on the encounter with OM. I thought that the dynamic may very well be changing now on its own, and why mess with a nice, natural death?<p>But her continued waffling and to be truthful, insulting words and actions, make me reconsider this. I think Plan B is appropriate, and I have no real fear about it and its possible outcomes.<p>So my plan is to give her the remainder of the month. If she wants to move out, that's fine... we've already talked about the meager set of belongings she'd take. I can approach the topic without LB'ing at all - she tried once before. I'd go to full-on Plan B within days of her leaving, though.<p>If she stays, I'll continue to Plan A as best I can. I'll "act as if" she's the sweet, loving wife I want, within reason. As I said before, it's hard when trying to meet EN is a LB, but I'll do what I can. The key will be to not LB, most likely.<p>I'm trying to juggle acting like I love her, giving her space (i.e. no neediness), avoiding R talk, ignore her fog talk, "moving on," etc. - it's all getting too much. I'm getting to a point where I can only do one of these at a time.<p>My one thing about Plan B... she might use it as an excuse... "he gave up on me" - so I can do whatever I want. Of course, I can't control how she interprets it. I need to do what I do for me.<p>The other likely possibility... she spends all the more time with him in a "dating-type" environment. I.e., they can STILL avoid the hard aspects of life by burying their heads in the sand. She's proven that she's an expert at this. They might in fact keep it secret at their work, too - that would make sense due to the insuing scandal that could result. Only once he's nearing the end of his program and is getting ready to move back overseas might the REAL reality set in... oh my gosh, I don't really want to do THAT! (She admitted to me once in a moment of unusual honesty, after they'd had a bad time of it, that she doesn't really want that deep down!)<p>So that's where I question what my Plan B should really look like. Some contact for a while, then no contact? I think that was the kind of direction Steve might have been trying to steer me at one point. But can I really do that? I'd feel like I was continuing to enable her - she WANTS to feel like she can control me from a distance. What more could she want? Freedom AND me! The thought is starting to sicken me as I type.<p>Anyhow, sorry for rambling on so long... it comes and goes. Gotta get it out. A lot cheaper than therapy, no?? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: J.R. ]</p>

I am new at all this....but I know plan A won't work if she is still seeing OM.<p>My vote would be for a plan B. And today has been a good day...so I am thinking pretty clearly now.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jeeper:
<strong>I am new at all this....but I know plan A won't work if she is still seeing OM.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>No, that isn't true. I know you're new, so perhaps you should re-read about Plan A.<p>Please, anyone who doesn't TRULY understand the Plans, READ, READ, READ everything you can get your hands on!<p>Begin with the links below - the red, underlined links in my signature line.<p>**PS** Just so you know, Plan A is done DURING the WS's affair. It is NOT for the WS, it is for YOU.

Change your habits. If you've always been home *waiting* when she's going to return late ---> be somewhere else when she gets home. Arrive home after she does ... and be very pleased with yourself. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] If you usually wear pajamas sleep nude. Pierce something. Tattoo something. Put blond streaks in your hair. Shave your head. Shave your pubes. Study French. Take up ballroom dancing. Bring home juggling balls. Buy a Harley. Take off for the weekend by yourself ..... and bring back a stuffed animal prize from a carnival. Start wearing a Hawaiian shirt to bed.<p>Control you?<p>I think NOT!<p>I wonder just how much fun you can have experimenting????????????? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

JR, in my opinion I think you're ready for plan B...and if you need til the end of the month to get it together, then do so, but I don't think anything will change in that time. Because, while you have shaken her world...the addiction has sucked her back in....it may be a bit more uncomfortable than it was once before, but she's still having the best of both worlds and not anywhere close to doing anything about it. I totally agree with you that right now you are simply making it easier for her to ease out guilt free...after all, you are being friendly and seem to be doing ok emotionally. I would ask her which it's going to be, whether she plans to move or whether it should be you....and then move forward with that. When she whines and says how much better things have been...and how she just needs time to make a decision...tell her that time isn't a problem...that you KNOW no decision can be made clearly while she's still holding on to the OM...if she REALLY wanted to figure it out she'd quit this foolish game. I can't comment much more tonight....but thought I'd pop in quickly. Take care.

J.R.,
Stick around w/ plan A a bit longer if there is a bit sign of in and out from the fog. Time is on your side, you know OM & A won't work. It is a coaster ride ... one of you have to call it quit, OM, WS or you to stop the ride. As long as you could focus you will be fine. We have wondeful support system here.<p>Paperband suggesting 180 degree, it might work for some relationship and usually work better for male WS.<p>Do some more research before you decide on plan B.<p>-RH-

J.R.<p>Man! I've lurked on this and your other threads for a while now, and I have to hand it to you - you've got some amazing strength in you! I'm amazed at what you've been through. And all that while I'm sure you must be having to survive - i.e., WORK! You go, guy!<p>I would have to agree with H4F here, you may need to go to plan B as soon as possible. But be sure to talk to S. H. about it before you do, since you've C'd with him before. Good luck to you!!!

Hi all, wow, thanks for the quick replies, you speedy MB'ers! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jeeper,<p>Actually I've been in Plan A for 7 months!! Progress is SLOW in this entire process. I can only think of a very small number of people who've "resolved" things in less than 6 months. 2 years or more isn't all that unusual, sadly.<p>n_b,<p>I've gotta get some of those links in my sig... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Pepperband,<p>I hear ya! Those things sound fun for ME... if she notices, all the better!! Actually, I've implemented several similar concepts - not as radical as piercings, but hey, now that I've got it in my head... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>H4F,<p>Yes, I know it... it's not that I haven't benefited from this time in Plan A... I feel like I did need to demonstrate a track record of change, and I've done that. I also feel like I have drawn her in a bit... at least on some level. I've seen her behavior span everything, so unlike many WS who only have one "mode" - anger - she has shown streaks of promise. I just hope for her sake she figures it out before it's too late... I really am ready to lose her forever... Scares me that I can even say that... but I guess I needed to get here, before considering doing something that might just do that... right?<p>redhat,<p>Yeah, that's the one thing that keeps ME on the fence... the fact that their A has had some "moments" recently, I'm absolutely certain. The fact is, she talked about moving out recently, even had an apt. picked out... then she chickened out! You can bet OM wasn't too happy about that!!! (And in fact around that time, she did sure warm up to me - coincidence???) I'm going to be talking to SH and IC/MC extensively over the next few weeks to really solidify my plan. In the meantime, great Plan A, all the way!<p>2long,<p>Talking about work... I can't believe I've been doing so well! I'm kind of a technical guru, and I'm lucky by that... been able to ride my own achievements and respect... but that just isn't my "way" - I hate it, really. But it's coming back... with a vengence [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Thanks for the encouragement... will keep you all posted!

J.R. What you said to redhat: I didn't realize that she hadn't moved out. I remember your posts about that. I wonder if this might make things different somehow regarding whether you should go to plan B or not. Maybe not, because she must be seeing OM and continuing PA with him anyway. But if you went to plan B, could you take the likelihood that they'd be "together" more often, if only for a while? I dunno, maybe I'm showing my own apprehension about having to do something like this one day with my W, if she won't break off contact with OM. And in my case, it's not even likely they'd resume the PA at all, so I'm worried most about the lies and EA reigniting.<p>Anyway, still talk to S.H. about this.<p>Good luck!

The part about plan B is that they (ws/op) are going to spend time together anyway. With plan B the pain of their 'togetherness' is lessened. For some crazy reason, that in itself tends to take some of the steam out of the A. <p>Imagine this conversation:<p>OP: Does your spouse know that you are with me tonight? <p>WS: Yes. BS is in plan B and it is no longer
important. I have moved out so I am all yours. <p>OP: You mean the BS is not angry? <p>WS: Well, no because BS is not speaking to me about the A or much of anything else. Just a few business items (finances, children, etc.)<p>Let's play!<p>OP: Well, just a minute.....you mean that I am not important enough in the BS's life or your life to make the BS stop and suffer even a little bit? (OP pouts)<p>WS: Nope......BS says all this A junk is tiring.
Don't need to be bothered with crap anymore. My life with you is just crap to the BS anyway. Let's play!<p>OP: Nah....I'm too tired... why don't you go back to your place. <p>WS: What?!?!?! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>(BS is at home and feels a sigh of relief.....doesn't know why but a great deal of stress has just come off the BS' shoulders)....<p>Now a phone call is sent to the BS' house? BS checks caller id and sees WS' #? BS wonders....hmmmmmmmm should I pick this up? <p>No. No known reason. Let's answering maching pick it up. No message left. BS gets curious. But remembers plan B and starts humming.....begins project 1, then goes to project 2. Phone rings again for the next 3 hours it rings 10 times. BS now knows the WS is anxious. BS let's it ring. <p>Next day the WS calls and leaves a message..... sheepishly the WS asks.. 'did you have fun last night?' <p>BS: Fun? BS thinks to self.... hm.... this is a curious message....better to let it go. <p>OK. I will stop here. The saga does continue. Do you feel the tension building up? <p>Guess who the WS has spent time thinking about?<p>All this while in plan B. <p>Think about it.
L.

Orchid,<p>Would you just plant that dialogue in my WH head, please!!!<p>I love it!!<p>J.R.,<p>You have to do what is right for you, don't jump into something before you are ready, be very careful. You have been thus far!!<p>Stay strong!!<p>Dawn [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Orchid:<p>Very good "answer." Of course, it probably takes longer than that, and I wonder if, in the case of a WW and an OM, who's going to be the one saying "lets play!" I guess I'm concerned, in my case in particular, that going to plan B would result in a resumption of the PA, that only happened about a dozen times over 11 years and ended early last fall. This OM has clearly indicated in just about every email to my W in the past several months that he wants to bone her again, and I can't stand even the imagery of it. But I guess that just means I need to work more on my plan A, so that if I have to get out of this delicate predicament because she won't get off her "friendship" fence, I'll be ready for a plan B.<p>J.R.'s situation is very different from mine in this regard.<p>Thanks again for the post!

Oh....I forgot to preface my dialogue. The WS is a conflict avoider and probably better suited to the OP being the OW. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] It wouldn't take too much of an imagination to put the OM in it's place and make a few changes to the dialogue. <p>Think I should go into script writing? Maybe make a play out of JD and Wat's manuscript?!?!? LOL! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] just kidding!<p>L.

JR,<p>I have followed your posts and appreciate your response on my cry for help thread 2 nite.<p>It must be very hard to plan A while WS lives there. My WH is only home a few days a month. I can see that we are in a pretty similar place. <p>JR, Ive never been a ws but something interesting happened to me when my WH went into rehab in 1992. He began to get better, healthier emotionally, physically... and I took notice. He was different and I didn't want to be left behind. I was scared basically.
I bet your wife is noticing you no matter what she acknowleges or not. <p>I keep saying to myself...you can't loose something you don't have. <p>The best I can say to you (and I will follow my own advice, it ot pray, ask God for direction, and timing. He will let you know if you are listening. I will pray for you and your WW. <p>Orchid is good, she directed me to your thread. I feel better already responding to your situation trying to help. Amazing (not really, it works everytime to get out of myself)<p>God Bless

2long: maybe I'm showing my own apprehension about having to do something like this one day with my W<p>There's some folks out there who'd say that Plan B should only happen if the WS has moved out (right WAT??)... and I agree to a point... the fact of the matter is many, many WS do move out at some point ANYHOW... my WW seems to be a strange exception with this, yet again... she's so torn, still very much in love with me... d@mn... poor girl!<p>I think the most important key is the love bank... regardless of whether they stay or go, if you're going to lose all hope, it's time to do SOMETHING. And in fact, reading SAA, Dr.Harley does say that he recommends the BS moving far, far away after Plan A ends... if I had it closer, I'd find the page.<p>O,<p>LOVED that dialog... I could see this too...<p>WW: So what do you want to do tonight?<p>OP: Well, lets go out for supper, and a movie, and then some FUN stuff, if you know what I mean...<p>WW: Hmm, sounds like fun, but I've kind of left the dishes, and I have some laundry to do, too or I won't have a thing to wear tomorrow... Maybe I should do that.<p>OP: Well, can I come over at least... maybe to play later??<p>WW: Okay.<p>Later...<p>OP: Okay, let's play!!<p>WW: Ugh... I've just cleaned, done 3 loads of laundry, it's 10:30, and I'm BEAT! I just want to sleep!<p>OP: (Intense pouting)<p>... yeah, J.R. has been filling in the D.S. duties lately, yes, enabling WW further...<p>Daybreak,<p>Indeed, that's one of the reasons I'll give it to the end of the month... just to be all the more sure... I will be watching and listening VERY carefully for signs that my plan could / should change.<p>WillGetThruThis,<p>Thanks for your prayers... it is amazing that people do respond so universally to certain things, and the threat of losing something important to you... it is compelling, isn't it? Hence Plan B... it IS for the BS to recover, but it isn't coincidence that SO often, it helps the WS come back to REALITY. Keep strong yourself... we're on the "right team" here!<p>G'night all... I'm feeling a lot better tonight... (and incidentally, WW came home, was talkative, wanted a back rub... some EN being met on both sides... got to look at the positives!)

JR,<p>To get the links in your sig line:<p>Go to the page you want to link and copy the link location<p>Go to "my profile" and then to your signature box<p>Paste the link<p>Now, this is where it can get a bit tricky, so hopefully I can explain this right... because you want to have a concise word or two instead of a great big link, right? Here's how you do that:<p>Note to begin - everywhere I have a "{" you put a "[" (the square brackets)<p>Type what's in bold, and insert the link, which shows below in italics.
{url=http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi}Concise Words Here{/url} <p>Don't forget to use brackets [] instead of pretty parens {}, or it won't work.<p>Well, my hubby is on his way home, so I'm getting offa here. These late nights (or mornings - yawn) are killers.<p>[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</p>

JR. Ok...you know the reason I have been so "active" in your postings is because I feel this is ground I've traveled before...and the other side of the fence from where you stand. The actions and words you've written about your wife make the hairs on my arms stand up because it's hauntingly similiar. And when you introduced the OM...he's got some big similiarites to mine too.<p>So, with that being said....this is EXACTLY why I think plan B should move into effect and SOON (obviosly talk to SH first, since they have true skills....but this is my opinion). She will NOT make a decision any time soon. Things are too easy for her...even though they're uncomfortable, they're easy. Heck, they're probly the most uncomfortable for the OM. Now that you've revealed you still have feelings for her, and now that she's balked on moving out....he's probly into a bit of a panic mode. He might actually LOSE her! My OM would panic...and although he would push me to move I would always feed him reasons why I couldn't do it just yet...if he wasn't understanding he realized that I would not be happy, and in turn might not go through with "our" original plans. See...from the OP side of things they believe all the "fog" is reality. They don't see it as a choice needing to be made...they see it as a matter of timing. That's their fog...out of this triangle you are armed with the most information, the clearest thinking...the most truth. Because, even though wifey may THINK she's gettin away with something...you aren't stupid...you see things as they are. Anyway, it's my opinion that by continuing on is allowing the fog to grow stronger. Yes...things are probly starting to get problematic between them...but that can change with a few sweet words and stolen moments. Don't let it change...rock their world again. Your scenario about the dishes and the laundry...more arm hair standing on end. That is SOOOOO true!!!! I loved being out on my own for the fact that I was finally getting some control in my life. I had some space and some ME time and when the OM would call it would disrupt that. I worked my butt off to try to pay bills and do things....and he'd call about $300 he just spent on himself. One of the things I loved about him was his generosity....got a better sense of that though. He gave a total of $20 to some charitable organizations after the 9-11 incident...and I was prepared to give $100 that I'd scrounged to save up. It was shortly after that he spent that $300 on himself for some stupid thing. I wasn't impressed. Anyway...I've wandered.... In your case your W will be struggling...and the OM won't be able to help. He won't be able to take her places and buy her things...the steam will fizzle to cold and clammy PDQ. Full access to the OP often turns out to be TOO MUCH. I was accused of comparing the OM to my H...well...there were things that DID WORK in our marriage and I looked for those RIGHT things in my next relationship...I was looking to trade up, ya know, not just break even. She NEEDS to see what she's missing out on. And she needs to have remourse. In order to progress the fog has to clear, and I think the truest sign that the fog is clearing, is remourse...the realization of what you really did...the pain you really caused. As my fog cleared and I made progress through counseling and reading with my emotional growth, I became more and more disgusted with the OM. He never did show remourse...the closest thing I came to hearing that was our last talk when he mentioned something about still caring about my H too (they were cousins, grew up together...my H considered him his closest friend, although OM didn't agree...whatever). Anyway...I've rambled and I realize that this is less than composed...but I hope you get the idea. I think that your wife needs another reality check...and I think timing IS IMPORTANT. Plan A sounds like a good tactic for restoring a healthy environment for you and for "us"...but I think that with too much time you can become a doormat. Don't keep hanging on because of this little sign and that little sign....that kind of thinking is what cause my OM to hang on for 2 years....2 years of hell. Not worth it. Break it off now...take the risk...I think your odds are better at this point.<p>GOOOOOD LUCK!!!

n_b, now I just need to decide which links to use!<p>H4F... feel free to provide as much detail as you like... I find it very helpful!<p>Here's a few more observations...<p>WW does obsess about 3-13 (the day I talked to OM). Why? If it hadn't had any effect on them, why would it be a big deal? If it did have an effect on them, what could it possibly be? Steve suggested one real possibility is that OM would stop making love bank deposits, so no matter how angry she might be with me (which was extreme), it wouldn't really matter anymore. Or by destroying the fantasy, she might start losing her love for him. Or by putting my face in his head, he might start LB'ing. Any or all of these are real possibilities. I don't know what the real situation is, nor can I even allow myself to care. But she has started acting differently towards me. She's said some foggy things, but I'm most intrigued by the intelligent things she's said, such as "I'm starting to come to grips with this whole thing."<p>Most recently, she said once again that she hasn't ruled out leaving to "sort things out." (This was after a pretty friendly evening, too.) I suppose my take on it is that "it's probably either going to be her or me, so it shouldn't be a big deal". And when she's mentioned it, I've been pretty casual about it - "well, if that's what you want...", etc. I.e., I can handle it - and then some!<p>But it does bring up issues with timing, etc. and how it all fits into my larger plan. I've got a phone meeting with Steve on the 19th, so that'll hopefully help set me up in a big way for the next steps...