TowardsTheFuture asked the following question in another post on the board that has to do with my current situation. <p>Ask her these questions...
1) If she could possibly be happy in a relationship with you, would she stay with you?
2) If she would stay in a happy relationship with you, then what is the point of going somewhere else before giving every effort to the relationship she's in now?
What would her answers be? Why not ask her?
B]<p>I am sure everytime for my wife(WS)is a bad time for me to talk to her however last night when I got home from the gym I asked her before she went to bed if she could spare a few minutes of her time. Keep in mind she has been sleeping in the spare bedroom now for about five weeks. She told me we can talk right now and I said I am not going to talk over the TV. She was watching TV as she does a lot in the evenings to avoid any talk with me. So she shut off the TV and I basically asked her the questions that TowardsTheFuture asked me. <p>[B]If she could possibly be happy in a relationship with you, would she stay with you? To this her reponse what I don't know. I asked if I worked on all the things that she said is lacking from my side could she be happy in a relationship with me. She said I don't know.<p> If she would stay in a happy relationship with you, then what is the point of going somewhere else before giving every effort to the relationship she's in now?
In the beginning everything I heard from my wife was that I didn't do this or I didn't do that. For example she said I need to plan more (B-day, etc..), I need to be more spontaneous and I need to listen more to her. Listen in the aspect that if she tells me she wants to move off to the Carribean and work in a bar that I need to take her serious. I think more in the relm of reality and this has been a problem. Well last night I heard something a lot different then what I have been hearing. She went on to tell me how much I mean to her and how good of a person I am. She acknowledged that she knows I can work on the things that need to be better and she said she knows I can change them. However she told me she doesn't think she can work on her issues and fix them like I can. She believes that since she hasn't fixed any of the things that she hasn't been providing like a spouse should over the years that she can't fix them or doesn't believe she can fix them. For example over the years my wife has not been a very sexual type of person. So when she thinks about this she says that she should of changed this and fixed that to provide for me. However now she is saying since she wasn't able to change or make that better over the years that this is why she believes she can't make things better for the marriage to work.
I did ask her what makes her think if she breaks our marriage and say down the road that she finds a new person in her life. I asked her what makes her think things will be better with that person and none of these problems will come up again. She told me once again she doesn't know. I sense that my wife knows that I can change and make things better and to provide for her. But my wife doesn't think as a person she can do that. She told me she has been thinking if she got so weak and found the other man then there is a big problem in our relationship. She beliefs that if our relationship was good that would of never of happened.
So now I hear from her how I am a great person and how good I am to her. I am hearing from here that she doesn't think she can change herself and is telling me that is unfair for me in our marriage. Is this fog talk?
I don't know how to approach this now because now I am thinking Plan B might not be a good idea. I think when I have some extra $$ I will call Dr. Harley for their advice.
Any advice anyone?

Tell her that you appreciate that it will be hard work...but also that regardless of where either of you go, there will be work that needs to be done in order to learn effective relationship skills. Tell her that no one is being held to any expectations at this point...but that you love her very, very much and you're willing to try to make this work with everything you have. Tell her an honest chance is all you're asking for, but that you need her to try also...it takes two to make a healthy relationship nd no one part can do it alone. <p>All you ask is that if she's willing to be in a happy and NEW relationship with you (more fulfilling for both of you) that she really give this thing a chance. Tell her that you believe in her...you believe in her and love her, and you think that the two of you can make this relationship a better place together, and that's why you want to stay with her.<p>I would suggest couples counseling with a good therapist (in present and together if at all possible, so perhaps with a local therapist). Harley would be a good supplement, but I do believe that nothing beats good face-to-face therapy.<p>[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]</p>

ttf...but that you love her very, very much and you're willing to try to make this work with everything you have. <p>snl...IMO his wife is telling him things he isn't hearing, and telling her this may feel meaningless to her, ws aren't all that interested in hearing how much they are loved...I mean think about it, would a ws think a bs is trying to get them back cause they hate them? Saying you love someone is meaningless, is just words, we know you want us back, for you. What we don't know is what love means to you, mostly we feel like your emotional property, you want to program us in your image. Too often saying I love you simply means you need someone, want someone, are afraid to start over, need someone to help parent, feel rejected, etc. ...none of this having anything to do with loving the ws, cause are all about the bs. If you are going to tell a ws you love them (which in itself is fine far as it goes) you should be prepared to explain to them in detail what that means to you, and you better be honest, cause if you are manipulative (telling em what you think they want to hear) is going to be a problem. IMO from reading here for so long, I don't see a whole lot of "love", I see a lot of need, and habituation, and not wanting to lose, a bunch of things that bs often do not look introspectively enough at themselves about...and I think this leads to confusion and mixed signals. For example, I have been told I am loved...yet somehow in light of the massive, selfish, lovebusting that goes on, is a little difficult to interpret....I think is more an expression of need, and fear often when that happens....remember words are pretty much meaningless, it is the behaviour and actions that count. IMO bs who lovebust alot do not love their ws, they want the marriage for themselves, and are angry the ws is not cooperateing...that has absolutely nothing to do with love.<p>[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

I disagree snl...women have affairs for different reasons. She probably doesn't hold much value in herself, and knowing that there's someone who will love you and support you while you try to find yourself and love yourself again....I think it's invaluable that she know that.<p>She won't try to change until she learns to believe in herself.

maybe ttf, maybe not...plenty of women are fine with themselves and leave marriages that do not work.... I edited some the above post to about the love thing...you were pretty fast.<p>Also if she does need to beleive in herself etc. when she does that work she may very well not want to be in the current marriage, as she has changed. Also many people prefer to change on their own, not with an obligation to a partner, how do you deal with that? Anyways telling someone you love them means nothing until they understand what that means to you, and what you want from them.<p>[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

That's what therapy is for, snl [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>All he should be asking for at this point is a chance to make this thing work out with her. The work will have to be done regardless...there's no getting around it. She needs to learn to believe in herself...and he needs to express that he wouldn't be willing to stay and try if he didn't believe that she could make this happen with him.<p>Trying doesn't mean magically meeting all of each other's needs...it means therapy, long talks, complete honesty, and no other people in the picture. The happiness comes later...but it won't happen on it's own. It needs a dedicated effort from both parties to better themselves and the relationship in order to have a chance...otherwise their just spinning their wheels and wasting time, and would be better off apart.<p>IMHO confused...I think she feels very alone and doesn't think to much of herself. Plan B would make her feel very abandoned...does she have anyone there to be there for her, like family or good friends?<p>Tell her that you want to try, REALLY try to make the relationship work out...and you NEED her input and support, and would be there for her to support her, as well. If your love for her is truly threatened by her continued obstinance and refusal to work with you, or if you just can't deal with the strain any more [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] then I would go to Plan B. Are you at that breaking point yet?<p>Keep in mind...I'm not a therapist here. Just talking from my own experiences...<p>[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]</p>

sure ttf, not disagreeing, not enough info to really go on, so just kinda covering the range. One of the things I have noticed about relationships is how quick people are to use the love word, with little understanding of what they are really saying...if you say that to someone and send them other messages (via your behaviour), I think this is not conducive to individual or marital growth. Although I don't agree with MB definition of love (whoever meets your EN), I do agree with their observation that most marriages in trouble are not in-love. I also do not think you can really love someone, and focus on what you can do to "hold" them to you...which is what the majority of focus seems to be here. The focus should be on improving yourself for YOU, letting your spouse go (emotionally)...and let whatever will be....be. There is way too much dependency and manipulative focus on the part of many here...that is very unatractive to a ws.....

I see what you mean...the "love" word does tend to get thrown around quite a bit, sometimes in situations where neither party is likely really in love. <p>I think that if you really do love someone though, that there shouldn't be any hesitation in showing it, telling it, saying it...with no strings attached and no expectations of anything in return. A person's love for someone shouldn't totally depend on whether they love you back...it's always there. It's only the pain of having that love rejected and the danger of losing that love that should drive someone to Plan B. Even after a divorce, do most people really stop loving their spouses?<p>I tend to agree with my "shrink" when he says that people in love never really fall out of love...they get pushed apart by pain and withheld communications. May not be the case in every instance, but it was in mine...<p>[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]</p>

TTL...
The problem that my wife has is that she believes if she says she is going to work on the relationship that is just a "promise" she can't keep. I never said she had to promise anything and to just try. She throws the word "promise" out there a lot. She tells me she can't promise me anything and that she doesn't think she can do it. Right now she really doesn't have anyone besides some not so good friends in my eyes and in her parents eyes. These are two friends who have dates several people, they smoke pot a lot, etc... If you look at their over all quality they aren't ranked high on the list. Her two friends hid the affair for her and to me they just aren't real good friends. In my wifes eyes these are her two friends for life. These are her High School buddies kind of friendship. She doesn't want to give them up where if she knows to have a good relationship with me or whomever she might have to give them up. I never said anything about her giving them up but she knows that is probably what it would take. This is why I think she hesitates on making the marriage work. If the marriage doesn't work she might not have her two pals to fall back on. Her parents are on my side and they don't agree with her. So yes my wife is very low and she feels very shallow right now.
I need to communicate to my wife in a way for her to understand exactly what you have said. She just has a problem with it because she feels she can't do it at all and she doesn't want to hurt me again. She thinks if she doesn't feel it she can't do it. It is the whole think that she says I have been feeling this way for awhile now. Of course without trying she might always feel the same way she does now. I can't get her over the edge to just try...
The question is since I just spoke to her about this last night when should I try talking to her again? Two nights in a row might overload her.

You two have another therapy appointment soon, right? I would bring it up then...that would give you some "down time" and maybe the pressure wouldn't be so high with the therapist there (I hope?)...I would wait till then, maybe...when is the next appointment?

why should she want to come back?<p>if she's emotionally checked out of your marriage, how are you going to bring her back?<p>by making her promise to try? hmmm...whats her motivation to do that? cuz you want her to? cuz you "love her".<p>so you want to drag more promises and committments out of her. Great. Go for it.<p>Plan A -- looking at yourself. Making changes in yourself. Demonstrating your new behaviors. Learning and Growing as a person. <p>This makes you attractive.<p>Plan A Confused Guys way: Overanalyzing every action. Pleading and trying to force HER to change. Relationship talks and LB's. Expecting her to meet your needs. Expectations.<p>ooooh yeah. great.
[img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

TTF...
My next session alone is tomorrow. I am guessing my wife will be seeing the same counselor alone on Saturday. The next joint session is in another two weeks. I am going to think this through for a few days and also talk to the counselor about it. I might wait until you suggested when we both are with the counselor together in another two weeks. <p>
Lexxxy...<p>I am not asking for any promises or commitments from my wife. All I am really asking her to do is to think about it like TTF said. If you leave the relationship you still have to work on yourself and eventually down the line more then likely with someone else. If my wife thinks about that she might want to consider trying and seeing if our relationship can work out. I feel I have been doing a good Plan A. If you ask my wife she will tell you that I have put little to none pressure on her.
Let me ask you this Lexxxy. You have three kids. Could you let one of them go forever? You migth say oh it is not the same, well why can't you let one of your kids go, love? I think it is easy for people to sit here at tell me to let her go. If it was that easy I would of done it. Because of who my wife has been to me and how I care and lover her it isn't that easy. The door is open and I don't have a gun to my wifes head. She could leave whenever she wants. During the time she is still under the same roof with me she will and does see my Plan A and me becoming a better person.

CG --
I am not in any way advocating that you give up on your marriage. I am not suggesting that you give up on your wife.<p>What I am suggesting and advocating is patience and a perfect Plan A.<p>And to me, being a WS, a perfect plan A would entail NO RELATIONSHIP TALKS unless instigated by WS.<p>It would also entail NO DISRESPECTFUL JUDGEMENTS, which I see a lot of in you. I'm not certain that you show that to your wife, but I see that attitude in your posts.<p>You want her to think about it...your way. You know best huh?<p>I also don't quite get the point of your questions about my children. They have the benefit of unconditional love from me. My spouse does not. And I suppose to some extent it is very likely that when my children are grown adults that they may make decisions I don't like, or choices I don't agree with. And at that point I will have to learn to let go. I will have to learn that I can't CONTROL. Just like you need to learn now.