The "Passionate Marriage" talks of individuals finding their crucible in their marriage and upon meeting it and growing they become more differentiated.<p>Yesterday I met mine... My 'intuition' is in high gear. I seem to sense more easily my H's moods. I checked his cell phone voice mail and found a message from Young'Un. It doesn't matter what she said. What matters is what I did and what I said.<p>I called him. Why is XXX leaving you messages that say "XyZ?" He says he doesn't know. He's not seeing her. Well, I say, howabout I call her and find out. If you call her I will leave you, he replies. Phone cuts out. I call back and get his voice mail. Leave the message that we are either working on marriage and us or not. If he wants OW, then leave. If he wants Young'Un, then leave. The threat of his leaving no longer leaves me in a place of fear. I trust me and that I will be okay. <p>When I finally do get a hold of him. He says he only said that to shut me up. I won't accept his "I don't know why she is calling." Tell her to stop. He deflects and says he'll change the passcode... sleep w/ his phone. I say that won't change the fact she is leaving you messages. If you are truly in this marriage, then you should not be hiding anything from me. He talks of privacy, of individuality... I am calm. I am resolved. I am w/out fear. I am w/out drama. I can't remember what I say next... but he breaks. He doesn't feel worthy. He feels inept. He doesn't know what God wants in his life. He doesn't know how to hear God. I tell him that I can't help him. I can only pray for him. I ask him to pray that I have an easy mind over our conversation during the day. We have to end as our days at work start.<p>While kids are getting ready for bed, I read Smalley's "Love is a Decision." I don't make it past many chapters before I just start sobbing and pray for guidance. Pray for the right words. Pray that He shows me what to do... what to say... and how to say it.<p>The conversation once kids are in bed starts w/ me. I don't have closure regarding our conversation this morning. Why are you continuing to lie to me. You called her yesterday when you went to your parents and she called you back. He continues to say he is just calling her. They don't 'see' each other. Nothing is gonna happen. I say I bet you never thought anything would happen w/ OW either. We go back and forth. Then I think of Carder's book. I don't do the indepth description of me with someone else. But I say...<p>"Okay. Let's look at the other side of the coin. Let say I'm talking to a former student. (and I give a name of a student H knows and I know... very cute btw... and over 21) Let's say he and I were having conversations... talking about sex ." H interrupts and says that he's not talking about having sex w/her. I don't argue the semantics and say okay. "So, XYZ and I are just talking about things we like sexually.... were just talking." Then, I say... "Let's make it really interesting. Let's say I am F***ing <co-worker's name> and calling him too." He tries to get me into the "well do it if you want to arguement." But I don't bite... I said, Nope... not going there... it's not do I want to... I already have. "It's happening. You hear the voice messages. You hear XYZ student saying he loves me. You hear <coworker's name> saying he loves me and when can we 'love' one another."<p>A change comes over H's face. He says, "I would hate it. I would fight you. I would kick and scream and drag you back and tell you that we will work at this and work at this until it works out."<p>A turning point. It was so clear to me that my H knows that I am done. His threats of leaving me are no longer working. I have met my crucible and am moving on. He can choose to meet his, or not. I only wish that he would agree to therapy or counseling, but even last night he would not.<p>Where do I go from here? I'm just trying to follow God's lead. <p>Cali

Marsha - I think you're doing dern well. Maybe He'll follow your lead.<p>Dave

Cali,<p>This what MB has done to us ... we are ready to move on w/ or w/o our SO. We are in equal footing now. Like WAT says, you are doing darn well. It hurts and we wish WS will turn around but it will be WS lost if they wouldn't. We know we have a choice of Dv based on adultery and give our best to someone else who will cherish it.<p>My prayer for you & your H repentant.
-RH-

A woman who knows her worth is an awesome thing to behold! When you surrender to the Lord, you actually take hold of your personal power. Things may not go "your way"... and the bumps on your road will be many .... but you are a woman of God who knows her personal worth .... and THAT is a journey well-traveled.<p>Hold your ground.<p>Pepper

Cali-<p>The strength you show is an inspiration. Thank you for writing. I'm struggling with my own insecurities and fear of the unknown, fear that maybe I'm not doing the right thing. I also fear that what I see as strength sometimes is rather my heart becoming hardened. I guess that does make steel stronger but I would prefer not having my heart harden and not be able to experience emotions again.<p>Good journey.<p>HoFS

Cali,<p>I'm assuming that your H has known for some time that you do not like his secret second life--is that correct?<p>Is the pain of H's secret second life your crucible? And how did you resolve it and get out of your crucible? In what way are you "moving on"? Exactly what is your H's opposing crucible?<p>Is the secret second life still there? And how do you know/not know?<p> [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Or, is the crucible the threat to leave whenever confronted or questioned?<p>Clearly, this is behavior that has pushed you away from his sore spots in the past. (Weren't "Joan and Bob" doing this kind of stuff in "Passionate Marriage"?)<p>Do you think your H really gets it, or has just learned by rote what the response should be to your (his?) scenario?<p>You've stirred the pot a little, maybe it needs to simmer some before you actually "do" something.<p>It wasn't explicitely mentioned, but did he fall back on his usual "it's all your fault" mantra? Or, is he starting to "own" his problems and mistakes? That's the first step for him to find his way back, regardless of the outward improvements in your relationship.<p>Sorry, no obvious advice. Just lots of questions.
Oh... Don't call young-un! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>We could have a discussion on the usefulness of the conflict that would ensue.....<p>Jeffers<p>[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: jeffers ]</p>

Thank you WAT... haven't 'heard' from you in awhile... glad to know you're still checking in on us.<p>I'm feeling a breakthrough REDHAT... either way the proverbial worm has turned.<p>Pepperband That is the song that keeps going through my head. He's either going to see my worth or not. And, if he doesn't, then it only matters that I do.<p>HofFencesitter sometimes fencesitting isn't just what WSs do... it is what we allow them to do and do, to a certain degree, ourselves. Perhaps your crucible is in finding out what causes the fear. <p>Conqueror The secret life is a by-product of my H's crucible. I probably will need to refer to the book (which is at home), but I will try and edit later if necessary.<p>My crucible is being loved and being abandoned. My two stepfathers instilled in me the idea that I am fat and ugly. They called me that and worse. My mother did not defend me, she 'sacrificed' me and the other children for her relationship w/ them. My fear has always been that my H doesn't really love me and doesn't find me attractive... so I pushed him away and held him tightly at the same time. (Here's where I have to look in the book to describe it better).<p>My H's, I suspect, is that he needs the validation that he is good and worthy... but once you become 'family' he no longer believes you think him worthy because he doesn't think himself 'good enough.'<p>He can't make me feel attractive and loveable and I can't make him feel worthy and good enough. <p>The book did such a good job of helping me see how our crucibles fit together and how we are emotionally fused.<p>Jeffers Mine is also to threaten to leave... but to really cling more tightly... to create a comfortable routine...<p>H's is to 'run away.' New job, new state, new house, new woman... maybe if I change my surroundings I will change myself.<p>nope... no 'it's your fault, or it's my fault!! that's another reason I think we hit a turning point. It was about facing our crucibles... though he doesn't know it. That's why I knew it was different. He said, at one point, "I don't know what to do. When it is good, I don't know why it is good. I don't know what God wants from me. I don't know how to ask."<p>And, I won't call Young'Un... but neither will I accept him calling her. judgmental or not. LB or not... it is just plain unacceptable and wrong.<p>Cali

You and your xWH sound just like me and my WH. I have never read this book, maybe I should. You seem to have gained some insight from it. I applaud you on your new strength. I wish that I could find that kind of resolve within myself. One step at a time , I guess. I will pray for you and your H.

{{{{{{Cali}}}}}}<p>I'll be praying for you!

Cali,<p>Sooooo proud of U!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Yep, when their threats don't cut it, it is time for them to cut it out or get out!!! <p>We are at the same place. Next you will find that he will not threaten so much but still may not want you to invade his privacy. My H 'used' to say 'well, if I change my #, I could always give her the new one!' So my response was, you're right and then you'd be living elsewhere!<p>Agree, then make your stand! Now he does not threaten me and does not sleep with his phone and does confirm when I ask if there has been a call. Remember the rock story? ok. <p>It does wear down. It does. If it doesn't then you know where you are going and this time it with greater confidence. This is a much stronger and better place to be!!! This 'acceptance' thing is not mousey, it is empowering. For the good of the family. Not to go to our heads but to restore our rightful place. We do not need to live in the shadow of the A. We need to shine in our families. <p>Ok, down off the soap box but yes I do see this as a turning point for me. I felt the same way! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hugz,
L.

waitingagain thank you for your prayers... have you posted your story? I will look for it.<p>mthhr Thanks for the hugs.<p>orchid Growth is empowering and scary.<p>Well... I didn't do as well last night. He changed his passcode and I kept 'talking' at him and 'talking' at him... He just had to see my point of view and agree w/ me. But when he did, it was wrong.<p>I delved into the book and found another point of fusion. We both look to the other for validation and agreement... so I will argue a point into the ground. I will keep at something like a dog w/ a bone... until he capitulates... but last night when he 'capitulated' I knew it was wrong... he was giving up and giving in... not because he really agreed w/ me... but so I would stop.<p>It was a big moment of awareness for me and when I read about it in the book, I understood why his giving in felt wrong and not victorious... <p>I can't drag him through this process w/ me... he has to go at his own speed and either keep up w/ me or not... and I have to trust God that he will and trust myself that I can move on w/ or w/out him.<p>Cali

Sounds like you have figured out your next step! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] to...let patience have her perfect work... Your growth surprises you although you had this strength inside of you all along, you just didn't know it... It took this traumatic event to bring it to the surface in you, to get you to take a long, hard look inside, to find it! This is why we can thank God IN all things, not FOR all things, but in it because He is with us. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>And I agree with you for putting your foot down re: those annoying telephone calls. Enough is enough!