MJay,
I think he is in more danger from the firearms than you.<p>I wish the people that knew, that were my "friends" had told me when they knew. I met the woman who became the OW, and she gave me plenty of warning she was going after my H...of course, he believes he was the hunter.<p>We own firearms....<p>This MM is a big liar, the wife deserves to know. What loyalty do you have to him? Was the college romance that big of a deal? It ended. He handled this so smoothly I do not think this was his first go at being unfaithful. You and the wife both need to take care of your health.<p>I think, a letter with your email addy?<p>My neighbor has diabetes, his wife left him, he takes very good care of himself, we have keys to his house, life is always a gamble when you are ill. <p>This MM didn't care enough about being sure his wife stayed with him when he came to you, for you to care so much now....<p>[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</p>

A few more things to consider....<p>First of all my take isn't that you shouldn't tell her...it's that if you do decide to...make sure you are doing it for the right reasons and with the right frame of mind. It's my opinion that at this point you are just angry that he's used you and that he might get away with it...those are legitimate gripes...but don't speak well for the frame of mind you'd be in. I don't think that letters are a good option...how on earth can you be sure he won't intersect them? And you really should NOT be in contact with him at this point...AT ALL. If you decide to do something you need to do it on your own accord...don't CLEAR IT with him! I DON'T AGREE with 48hours notice just in case he decides he wants to break it to her first. This man is in no mindset to tell her the truth, he'll just use it as an opportunity to spin some fabulous lies.<p>If you can talk to her with real remourse for your part in things...then she might benefit from your contacting her...but if you can't and are just doing it to get him....you're not helping anyone.<p>This medical and firearm BS he's throwing you are just that...BS. No matter what truth there is to any of it, it can be controlled. He can see a doctor (I know I haven't read any headlines recently that speak of the growing number of diabetes sufferers found dead in their beds due to single life) and he can certainly disarm a weapon that's lying about the house (and doesn't that speak highly of that house if there are weapons lying around?!?! I think he's full of it). He's panicking and trying to control you. Just quit contact and he can't do that anymore.

Well, this firearm threat is an interesting bit. I rather doubt she would come after you or anyone else with a firearm. But I’d be very concerned that he even brought it up. IMHO his telling you this is a passive aggressive attempt on his part to frighten you into silence. He’s not to be trusted. He also is starting to sound a bit abusive.<p>You were not really doubted into an affair, the moment you started seeing a married man you were involved in an affair. Whether he was leaving his wife or not. I can understand your being angry at him. I had something similar to this happen to me years ago. I ran into an old boyfriend. He had filed for divorce so I started dating him. A year into our renewed relationship I found out that he’d been back with his wife for the last 3-6 months. He was also sharing an apartment with a friend. His friend helped him hide his marital recovery from me. Since he traveled a lot for work, it was easy for him to tell both me and his wife that he was on a trip so that he could be with the other. What I learned from that relationship is that a marriage is not over until the ink is dry on the divorce papers. And that if a person is dating a married person, they are in an affair… period. <p>Just as I put myself in the situation, so did you. I understand your anger. But his behavior is very normal for an adulterer. This type of adulterer is often referred to as a cake man. Your anger is somewhat misguided since you already knew that he was capable of lying and manipulating. He was doing it to his wife when he started seeing you. And he was doing it to both you and his wife when he continued seeing you. Take all that anger and use it to realize the lessons that come from this and move on.<p>I still think it would be a good idea to tell his wife, but be careful of your motive. Do it to help her, not to get revenge on him.<p>A thought just occurred to me. Are you thinking that perhaps, if you tell her, she will leave him and then you will finally have him for yourself? Could this be part of your motivation… either you get him for yourself or you hurt him. Either way there could be a perceived positive payoff for you.

Here is my take and I might be wrong. Ok maybe not. your old flame being a man in a bad marriage took the bait you gave him and went for it. Yes his marriage was bad but not that bad he wanted out totaly. You were used and once done you became expendable. Ok so now you are hurt, but keep in mind that this was what you really wanted. You took a chance and got hurt. Next time don't get in touch with old flames.
As for him. If you tell his wife about your relationship with her husband it becomes likly that the marriage will be over or at the very least on that track. Despite what is said on this forum the sad reality is that most often the "M" dies on the vine. Often very slowly but it dies. Does she have the right to know, I would say yes. How you do it is up to you , but as the song goes "Please be kind". I know that if it were me I would want to know. So there you have. And please stay away from marriages, two is company and three always is a crowd.

MJay, It will never be easy to leave the OP. There will always be open issues that fester. Given time, you will get over them. Take stock, try to figure out why you did this. But first, RUN!

I agree that you have to question whether you would be telling for your own benefit. He gets thrown out and turns to you because he can't live alone, or you get to see him suffer.
My advice is to schedule a session with Steve or Jenn, and ask their advice. They are very ethical people. They will have the best ideas on whether to tell, and how to tell.
Furthermore, you shouldn't be continuing to call this man and threaten him, discuss his marriage, and keep the contact alive. If you truly care about his marriage you will remove yourself from the situation so he can turn his attention to his wife. Stop the contact!
Hopefully you've learned that a romance that begins under the conditions of lying, cheating and betraying will only lead to pain for all parties. Forget this man, and move on- hopefully you will find someone of much better character. Is this what you want- someone who is unhappy, but doesn't work on his marriage with his wife. Someone who would abandon his wife with just a note, walk out on the woman who has spent decades with him giving him his insulin shots etc. You can't begin to fathom what their marriage is about, so don't even try.
Hmm and by the way a man with Type I diabetes has some pretty significant health risks down the road. If you got him away from his wife, are you committed to take care of him down the road when he goes blind or has a limb amputated or goes into kidney failure- all complications of Type I diabetes.

My H gets very defensive when he's doing something wrong. Rather than acting guilty, he gets angry. I could sense he was lying to me and told our counselor that I was done working on the marriage until his "ea" was resolved. When it happened years ago, it basically got swept under the rug and I never felt closure.<p>So I ended up having to fight with the counselor who didn't want it brought up. I said fine, then I'm done. It was the only thing I asked for out of years of counseling. She finally did some more reading and decided that yes, I needed to know. So she 'forced' him to tell in counseling. He told her he hadn't told the truth because he promised OW he'd never tell. What a slap in the face, his vow to her was more important than our wedding vows. Well that night, the counselor had him sign a contract promising to be completely truthful from that point on. <p>Guess what? He lied to both her and I for 3 more weeks. He promised me that nothing happened in our home or office, and that wasn't true. She was IN MY BED and they made out at our office. So I guess I don't know if he ever is truthful about anything anymore. What really bugs me is he doesn't act remorseful when he's wrong, he gets all defensive. Like there is EVER any reason to take your wife's best friend into her bed while she's gone from her home. <p>Can you tell I am still a touch resentful?

I don't think you have any right to tell his W. How he handles his marriage and communications with his wife is his business. You shouldn't try to play god. <p>Move on. You instigated the whole affair because you were unhappy with your relationship. You are not an innocent bystander. You were not only a willing participant, but you were the initiator.<p>Leave the guy alone and move on.

so ashirley it is ok for her H to play God? You need to reread the part of the Bible dealing with being your brothers keeper. Not to mention he is no longer her H when he hardened his heart. This is not about the H it is about mjay and her obligation to the wife, has nothing to do with the H....<p>How about you, is it ok with you for your H to decide what you should and should not know about your life? Somehow I doubt it. This is not optional, there is never a justifiable reason to steal someones humanity, and that is just what mjay will be doing if she participates in the deception of this woman, one must always tell these kinds of secrets.....no matter what your status....even if you were a non-involved co-worker, or neighbor, you still tell, once you become aware of a secret and don't tell, you are doing injury to someone by concealing the knowledge you have, it is that simple.<p>[ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

I guess we have a basic disagreement. And the Bible doesn't have all the right answers. Mjay has no obligation to the OM's wife.
This OM has been married for decades. It's his job to put his life back together....his way. Not Mjay's way. She needs to leave the OM alone and let him deal with his wife and his marriage his way.

Stay away from a married man, he has told you to go away, do it... believe me you are hurting his marriage and this is wrong... you were wrong to begine with... very wrong... now leave him alone, and quit hurting his wife and him..<p>Quit being selish- truthfully I am disgusted... you encouraged him in this sick fantasy. I think you need to do some real work on you... and quit trying to break up a marriage...you knew he was married, and should of encouraged him to work things out with his wife all along if you were doing right as afriend... I can't say much more since it is making me so sick to hear what you say about you you you. Quit being so immature and selfish, try church or some religion... try some morality .. personallly and legally his wife would have true motive, and yes... reduced charged if any if you were shot.<p>quit doing this evil that you are engaging in... your thoughts are sick.<p>h [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

ashirley, I agree it is not her job, no one is suggesting she counsell, or give advice, maybe that is your issue, you are percieveing this as something else...what it is, is mjay has knowledge of deliberate harm being done to this woman, she is obligated to reveal it, it doesn't even really make any difference she is the ow, except to make amends for her part in the injury. I am frankly surprised at your position, I also note you did not answer a very pointed question about whether you would accept having your H determine what you can and cannot know.<p>Let me ask a few more questions.<p>1. Suppose you know a 45 yo neighbors H is having an affair with their 18 yo babysitter...would you tell the wife?<p>2. What about stds, if mjay (sorry mjay) has an std his w is now being exposed to that, what if she got pregnant and baby was injured or died because of it.... now what if you knew about the affair and didn't tell....is your conscience clean? It shouldn't be, you are the worst offender of all, you could have exposed the secret, and let nature take it's proper course in the light of truth.<p>3. What if her H continues his adulterous behaviour, and contacts an std from someone else, maybe aids, and gives it to his wife....your conscience still clean? YOU could have given her the means to protect herself, instead you let the truck run right over her.<p>The truth is always it's own defense, in fact you cannot even be sued for slander or libel if you tell truth that cause serious difficulties for someone. The truth is also Biblical, nowhere in the Nible will you find even the slightest hint that we are not to protect and look out for each other. The truth (if it is about someones ability to direct their own life) should always be told, regardless of circumstances...it is an immutable prinicple, there are no exceptions.....their is only a difference of philosophy. Since you apparently condone secrets, remember you have given up your right to the truth, and should never hold anyone accountable for secrets they could have told that affect your life, but did not tell, helped keep them from you with their silence...think about that before you commit to the philosophy of keeping secrets.

SNL,
I'm thinking.

ok [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

SNL,
I don't think that people should be meddling in other people's personal business. Each couple develops their own kind of relationship, and it's really none of anyone else's business what level of communication is shared or how open or closed the marriage is. First of all, HUGE mistakes and misinterpretations can take place that can really have harmful long-term repercussions. People jump to conclusions, often the wrong ones.
So, if a person "thinks" someone might be having an affair…they better be 100% sure, before they tell anyone. Gossip is so hurtful and destructive…just wondering our loud with your neighbors, can cause irreparable damage!<p>So, question 1. How do you know they're having an affair? Did you walk in on them making love? In any case, I I wouldn't tell the wife. I might confront the H and say, people think you're having an affair with the Babysitter…or something. But I wouldn't tell her. It's not my place.<p>2. It's still not my business to tell the wife about the affair. STDs or not.<p>3. I still don't think it's my business to tell the wife. It's the H's business. And if he doesn't, he needs to live with the burden and the consequences.<p>But this is just my opinion. I think people pretty much find out what they need to know, when they need to know it. We don't need people going behind us playing policeman/god. And we certainly don't need vindictive, spurned "other women" or "other men" telling the BS that they've been having an affair with their spouse. That is just plain wrong.

ashirley...I don't think that people should be meddling in other people's personal business. <p>snl..I agree. The point is when you marriage expands to an affair it is no longer personal, we all have a vested interest, not the least of which is public health, these kinds of secrets kill people, is that acceptable to you?<p>ashirley...Each couple develops their own kind of relationship, and it's really none of anyone else's business what level of communication is shared or how open or closed the marriage is. <p>snl...That is not at issue far as I can see.<p>ashirley...First of all, HUGE mistakes and misinterpretations can take place that can really have harmful long-term repercussions. People jump to conclusions, often the wrong ones.
So, if a person "thinks" someone might be having an affair…they better be 100% sure, before they tell anyone. Gossip is so hurtful and destructive…just wondering our loud with your neighbors, can cause irreparable damage!<p>snl...I agree, being 100% sure was sort of a given. In this case (mjay) there is no doubt, so this part your position is not in contention. But as an aside, so what if people jump to conclusions, that is what truth is all about, clarification will occur, and all set right. That someone will jump to conclusions is hardly a reason to never talk about anything...many an affair has been stopped before more damage cause a concerned party (who may not have been sure) came forward to the bs. Heck even happens here all the time, someone posts marital troubles, and others say sounds like an affair...do you see that as a problem? I really mystified at your recalcitrance over truth, and forthrightness....I am guessing you place a high value on privacy, and folks knowing as little as possible about you. If true, there are reasons for that, none of em healthy. But I am just guessing, and mean no offence.<p>ashirley...So, question 1. How do you know they're having an affair? Did you walk in on them making love? <p>snl...Perhaps the 18yo confided in you....maybe the 18yo is your daughter..what then? <p>ashirley...In any case, I I wouldn't tell the wife. I might confront the H and say, people think you're having an affair with the Babysitter…or something. But I wouldn't tell her. It's not my place.<p>snl..That is completely backwards, it does not protect the wife at all, the victim...and gives her abuser (her H) a heads up to be more sneaky...why would you help him, and ignore her? <p>ashirley...2. It's still not my business to tell the wife about the affair. STDs or not.<p>snl..Yes it is, if you want to live in a civilized world... but if it is a dog eat dog world (and some think it is that) then no reason to tell someone something that could save their life, just cause you don't want to be involved.<p>ashirley...3. I still don't think it's my business to tell the wife. It's the H's business. And if he doesn't, he needs to live with the burden and the consequences.<p>snl...No shirley, his wife, the innocent victim is the one living with the consequences, only she had no choice....he did, he accepted his consequences...how about her...who protects her when the protector (here H) is the villian...no one? Not ashirley? Why not? If not, then who protects you ashirley when everyone looks the other way and you are a victim of _______ (fill in the blank)...that is the only thing that seperates us from animals, our willingness to care for each other, what can be more caring then to tell someone their life has been stolen?<p>ashirely...But this is just my opinion. I think people pretty much find out what they need to know, when they need to know it. <p>snl...No they don't find out, statistically over 1/2 of affairs are never revealed...that means thousands of innocent spouses are living lives that are lies, sleeping next to strangers, who they have entrusted their lives, and don't even know they have had their humanity stolen.<p>ashirley....We don't need people going behind us playing policeman/god. <p>snl..You are trying awful hard to make this something other than it is. Policeman? How so, one is simply revealing truth, not apprehending, or coercing anyone to do anything...God? How so, one is not determining anothers life, people can and will do with the information as they see fit...you have no way of knowing what one will do, nor is it of any concern, the truth is it's own justification.<p>ashirley...And we certainly don't need vindictive, spurned "other women" or "other men" telling the BS that they've been having an affair with their spouse. That is just plain wrong. <p>snl...Why not? You have not answered the main question, do you accept or give anyone power over your truths ashirley? Would you want someone to tell you if they knew your H was decieveing you, and would you really care whether they were a spurned lover or not? I doubt it...which makes your position here curious, double standard? In any event, I do agree one should reveal an affair as compassionately as possible, and would take serious issue with a spurned lover doing so in a vindictive manner, but that is really beside the point.<p>Take a poll here, I do not think you will find a single bs out of the 100's posting here who would not have wanted to be told about the affair as soon as possible, what does that suggest to you about the ethics of revealing such knowledge? I suggest it says do it, the only people who ever argue otherwise (such as you are doing) invariably admit they would want to know too...why is that do you think?<p>Thx for your exchanges, I know you mean well, do you ever let anyone change your mind from a position? I suspect in some way you percieve this (revelation) as being hurtful to the bs, is that true? Cause if not, if it is helpful, why would you argue against it? If you do think it is hurtful where is the hurt? <p>And once again, would you want to know?

I have a very strange opinion on this, I think no wife (or husband) wants to be confronted with their spouses infidelity. I don't think I would have been thrilled for Mr. OW to call me and tell me. I know I wouldn't have handed hearing it from the OW very well. I believe I could have managed to live the rest of my life not knowing. I found out a year after the A had ended. And my gaining that knowledge did nothing to improve my life or my family's.<p>Here's where it gets sticky. My H wasn't in a PA but an EA. Don't ask me if that's better or worse because I have no answer. I had no need to worry about STD's, although I did have all the tests done. If my H was in a PA I think I would want to know simply because of the health risks that may be present. BUT there is no way I would ever want to hear this information from the OW and especially not for the reasons this particular OW wants to tell.<p>So is she morally obligated to tell the W? I say no. Does the wife have the right to know? I say yes. This slimy underhanded creep who is married and playing head games with his wife and the OW should be the teller though and since he won't I vote for anonymously letting her know so that she is protected from any diseases. And by the way Ms. Infidel by default you too should be tested for STD's along with HIV and Hep C. I don't think your MM is quite the prince you thought he was.<p>Anyway that's my 2 cents worth.<p>[ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: TinyDancer ]</p>

The person actually involved in this affair by default is MM's wife. She was given no information and no choices. MJay and MM both made a series of choices, took a series of actions and were full participants in the affair, MJay was the instigator, not the victim. MM has lied to his BS consistently. She has the right to know, but not as a back-handed slap at MM.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TinyDancer:
<strong>I have a very strange opinion on this, I think no wife (or husband) wants to be confronted with their spouses infidelity. I don't think I would have been thrilled for Mr. OW to call me and tell me. ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>TD,
I disagree completely. I would have been grateful if someone had told me the truth - ANYONE. It was much more painful to sense something was terribly wrong without being able to figure out what the problem was. I was in absolute despair trying to figure out what was wrong. And while I certainly did not want to find out that my WH was having an affair, it was an utter relief to finally the truth. <p>I can DEAL WITH the truth, being a big girl. I can make informed decisions about my life when I KNOW the facts. When information is being wrongly withheld from me, I am stuck in limbo land knowing that something is wrong, but not knowing what to do.<p>So no, I don't agree with you that most BS don't want to know the truth. I think most DO want to know the truth about thier own lives because not knowing is pure hell. I just wish someone had been kind enough to tell me. <p>And while the OW didn't break the news to me, I confronted HER after I found out and you know what? She became a major allie to me. She provided pertinent facts to me about the affair and answered any questions I had, in addition to apologizing for the EA.

Melody, thank you. You have been one of few respondents who were not harsh, judgmental and unkind to me.<p>I have been condemned here; misquoted (he never said "go away"--I am not "scorned"--on the contrary, we love each other very much and tell each other whenever we speak); attributed motivations on my actions by strangers who know virtually nothing more than a few paragraphs about me. I have been blamed--called the instigator, told I am participating in "evil" (you will NEVER convince me that any love can be evil, even if not under the best circumstances), called a co-conspirator. Basically, I have been used to embody the Other Women in respondents lives.<p>Well, I will do what I will do, on my time frame. There is no hurry. I have informed the man many times that I think HE should tell her. But I see that I shall get no helpful advice here, simply attacked.<p>So I will cease to attend this discussion board, and again I thank those few who were not blatantly unkind to me.<p>Goodbye to all.<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: MJay ]</p>