right after d-day and starting plan a and mb's i gave a deadline in my head. well it is approaching and nothing is different. he still is not really trying to meet my needs. he will do one or two things a month almost just to pacify me. still no real conversation. only how bad his day is and how stressed at work he is blah blah blah. we never talk relationship stuff or affair stuff and im giving up on him ever talking about it. now the new kicker-the sf has fallen off immensly. this is a man who when filled out the en questionair inserted 20 times a week as his answer. now if i dont initiate he hasnt touched me. i know you are all gonna ask if its over between them. he said back in jan. it was-do i know this for sure-no. i havent caught anything,but with his job and hours its very difficult.<p>i guess im just hitting my limit of what im willing to put up with. our youngest son is away for the week-lots of alone time,right. dates, maybe intimate time, none of that. we went to the movies last night and as soon as we came home-on went that stupid 24 hour yankee network.(THANK YOU GEORGE STEINBRENNER!!!) no conversation or anything. i just went to bed. i guess he'll be busy with baseball till oct. yeah, just in time for the one year anniversary to all this.<p>i just cant do it. i want to go in there and ask him to leave. why stay and put me through more pain? im recovering nicely on my own-no help from him whatsoever. so why keep putting myself through this? and i know you are gonna say cause i love him-yes i do but i cant stand the pain anymore of being ignored or acting like this never happened.<p>i have to go to work now-ill be back this afternoon-last day of the week for me, thank god.
please discuss this and i will post when i get back-have a good day all.<p>[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: nikko ]</p>

Sorry, nikko. As you know, I have no answers, feeling pretty helpless myself. Just commiserating with you. All I'm trying to do now is give in to my feelings of grief and stuff instead of fighting it in the hopes it will resolve [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] (if possible) sooner rather than later. Trying to focus on myself, but also being more open and transparent with him. And trying to lose my expectations about that. Just kind of, "Here I am--live with it. I sure have to." Just don't know what else to do anymore. Not very proactive right now.

thanks for the reply conqueror-i know we are kinda in the same boat. i just keep asking myself are you willing to live like this. i keep hearing the same answer-no! so i kinda feel like im at a crossroads, i know nothing i do will immediately stop the pain, but to live like this every day is becoming unbearable. i snapped at someone at work the other day and have never done that in 20 years. im lucky i dont lose my job. i just dont know what to do-except confront the conflict avoider. i know this will be the biggest love bust going if i do-but im tired of being the only one rowing this boat,that is sinking i might add.

Hmm Nikko not that he would agree to it, but what helped a little with my wife and I was to cancel the cable. TV is a big attention sucker.<p>Sigh I hope he wakes up and realizes how special you are.... <p>Still praying for you!<p>-HI

hey hi-thanks, i think im special too. i seriously doubt he's gonna wake up on his own without counseling, and ill be dead of old age by the time he runs out of excuses for that.(ha ha)<p>i know he tries sometimes-but he has no clue. i wish he could talk to you guys. and yes he knows about this site-i even put it in favorites for him. just doesnt do it.<p>i just feel a big outburst of "IM TAKING MY LIFE BACK" COMING. BETWEEN HIM AND THE KIDS IVE HAD IT.
came home to a note my 12 yr old left-<p>mom, i pierced my ear and the lawn guy came and sprayed.<p>i may kill this kid when he gets home.

Take this from a recovering professional conflict avoider. H needs to learn why he avoids conflict. My bet is that, like I was, he doesn't know why he avoids conflict or the consequences thereof. Once, I learned why I avoided conflict, the rest became easier to accept. Before that, I was just too dead emotionally. The OW awakened my emotions. I guess that is why you hear people say that they are better after the A emotionally. Of course that is rubbish, better to confront things before with the person you chose to spend your life with. I made one huge mistake, never again! Good luck.

dear b- i would love more insight from you- what made you finally decide to get help for yourself? that is the problem, i cant make him nor would i try-it wouldnt work. he is avoiding counseling. i know he has to deal with all this or he is setting us up for this to happen again. any insight would sure be welcomed. i have no idea what to do except protect myself for the future.

Sorry Nikko,<p>I didn't read your post till after your reply. <p>You do sound to have the same problem. I know I listened to KKMS when Dr H was on and another woman was complaining that the WH would not address the problems either and Dr H said that was not uncommon for Ws. They just wanted to move on. As I write this tonight H is reading HSAA Book which has taken him almost 3 mos to read. He usually falls asleep reading it...inspired reading, huh?<p>My H has agreed to counseling with S Harley once he reads and understands the concepts in MB he says. Maybe that is why it is taking soooooo long!<p>I know that it will be very expensive to do the phone counciling but I am hoping it will help keep us moving. <p>Have you considered that? Phone counseling with MB seemed to be an approach he would consider.<p>Have you tried discussing that technique?<p>Sometimes we need outside motivation and stimulation ( of the acceptable approach, this time). I'm hoping he will finish in the next couple days so we can work on EN and LB Questionaires first.<p>Good luck, my sister keeps saying "baby steps".<p>But yours seems to have gone backwards no SF? Have you asked him why?

for a guy i dont think he could give me a good reason for no sf.(severely diminished anyway.) <p>as far as the counseling-i have approached it many times-i cant force him.<p>on the good news front-just when i thought i was done-he just called and asked me on a date. no kids till sunday. i bought him opening home day tickets to the yankees for valentines and the game is tomorrow. he just realized we were gonna be alone. he's a little slow on the uptake-weve planned this since feb. anyway wants to make a whole day/evening of it. suggested the car show in N.Y., the game and then dinner in the city also. i know, its a guys dream date, but ill take it at this point. hopefully we are at a turn in the road. dont want to get my hopes up, but i am happy about the date.

Great news about the date! Im happy for you! Do your best to knock his socks off and reward his good behavior if you have that left in you. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Make it an awesome day.<p>Im happy for you!
*cheers*<p>-HI<p>If your H is really "turning the corner" we can have a parade, we already have elephants [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

nikko, My W dragged me to counselors. I went because she was talking separation and I wanted to avoid that (imagine). I'm not sure how many she saw, but I think most were incompetent. I once called for her at counselor's office (she left me a note with the number) and the receptionist refused to even talk to me, in fact she made it clear that I should not be calling there. I felt like a criminal. Believe me, that was was a huge LB. The first counselor I saw, with my wife, never got past the "How does that make you feel?" malarky. We could have seen her for years without accomplishing anything other than paying for the counselor's new car or house(?). <p>She finally found a guy that I respected. We saw him once a week for about two months. He helped but not much beyond the "you need to fix your communication problems" stuff. But he do two great things for us:<p>1) He loaned me a book to read. I can not remember the title but I will never forget one passage I read. It described various personality types and and I recognized mine precisely, the "dial tone." No emotions - complete avoidance of hurtful situations. I have since discovered that this is a learned behavior that I and all my siblings brought from our childhood into our marriages. By the time I started talking to the OW, I was pretty much a dead person emotionally. Don't get me wrong, there are great benefits to controlling emotion. At work, I was a rock. I was always given the top leadership position because I was cool under fire. I mean that literally since I just retired as a military officer. I could deploy anywhere in the world for months at a time and it did not appear to bother me. I would always be a little puzzled why soldiers took deployments so hard emotionally. Little did I know the damage it did to me. I retired at the earliest opportunity - I wasn't sure why I wanted to leave then but I am very happy to have done so now.<p>2) He also recommeded an eight-week His Needs Her Needs Seminar sponsored by Family Dynamics. We are in week # six with eleven other couples. It is really just an in-depth look at the HNHN concepts. The homework forces us to spend the 15 hours together. The benefits are obvious for a guy like me. I am learning all the things that I never knew. Because I grew up in a religious home, I never thought divorce was possible for me, let alone that I would participate in an affair. I needed this course to help me learn how to fall in love with my wife again. My wife needed me to go so she could see that I loved her not only in words but in action. I did not have a clue how to meet my wife's emotional needs or have my own needs met. It may sound mechanical but I believe it works. Maybe it the rote nature of the concept that appeals to men.<p>So, I can tell you in my experience that when my wife said the type of things that you are saying about your husband that I had no idea what she was talking about. I suspect your H would say the same. I just wanted to do what most men want - drop it and move on. Of course that never works ever because the root problems are still there and they always re-surface.<p>I don't know what to tell you to do. Let me tell you what worked with me. First, my wife did not give up on me. D-Day was Jul '00. I read the book I mentioned earlier Fall 01. We started HNHN seminar Mar 02. So it will be a total of about two years after D-Day that we will be in I guess what you call recovery. Second, you have to be brave and persistent. If your husband is as clueless as I was then he needs your help. Sometimes that means you have to forceful as my wife was. It wasn't until I thought I might lose her that I agreed to see the first couselor. Third, read what Dr. Harley says about counselors and follow his advice. If you can afford it, go to the phone counseling listed at the Marriage Builder's website. Or go to a HNHN seminar. There is info at the Family Dynamics website (familydynamics.org). Drag yur husband by the collar if he will not go on his own!<p>It is great news about the date tomorrow night. I also love baseball, played it in school and enjoy going to games now. I am a diehard Braves fan and when we filled out the recreational questionaire I was very happy to learn that my wife wanted to go to the Braves game with me. Tomorrow I take the kids to see the Braves play the Mets. W is out of town at a funeral. I will say a little prayer for you during the national anthem [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Try to enjoy the evening. Remember that your husband is trying to please you, even if he doesn't know how to yet. The best he can do is what he thinks will work (ie, what he likes), it may take a while to learn how to meet your ENs. Buy something sexy on you day off to wear when you get near the end of the evening. I would even suggest that you tease him about having bought it. I did not intiste SF with my wife because I knew she was feeling uneasy because I had been with the OW. Remember that SF is a big deal to men. But he may be waiting for a green light like I was. Tell him that the real fireworks start when you put your new thingy on, and off [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Sorry I went on so long. Some of what I wrote is also available in my other posts, but I wanted to try to let you know how one WH story went. From what I have been reading, mine is not a solitary story.

dear b- thank you for your wonderful post and taking the time to do it. it gave me a new window of insight.<p>i never pushed my husband to counseling cause you always hear you cant force someone...blah, blah, blah. well i guess forcing him is no worse than not giving him the final chance to change things. i will find some seminars and such.. i think the first will be a communication one. we really need to start there and work up.<p>i believe his emotional "stuff" goes way back- he lost his dad at about 8yrs old. dysfunctional family and all the rest of the baggage. it is gonna be a long road for him. i dont ever want to give up on him- i know he can change the things he needs to and deal with the hard stuff. i need him to know i will be there for him...thanks for the push. sometimes we get down and bad feelings take over. you gave me the insight i needed to go on a little longer-thank you.<p>i need to go get ready for my "date"- i am excited. im gonna freeze my buns off at the game but it will be fun. anyway, thanks b.

nikko, I think we all have baggage that we would prefer not be aired. Certainly I do, but I am finding it better to seek out help. I wonder sometimes what is the best thing. I wonder what would have happened had my wife not pushed me into the C. I also wonder how many marriages are in trouble, and of those how many couples find their way back together. My A did not die a natural death and I did a lousy job ending it. But I am sure the best thing I did was to end it.<p>One thing you might want to know. I took as full an accounting as I could before ending the A. My relationship with my W was terrible at the time. I experienced the fog of thinking that perhaps my life would have been better with the OW. I guess the confusion comes because I had to face fantasy and reject it as not as appealing as it appears (falsely of course). I considered my children, the effect on extended families and the effect on my wife. Mostly, I knew that if I continued in the A would I be able to look at myself in the mirror?<p>I guess that I am just trying to say that perhaps your H, like me, will try to come back to you for what may appear to be the wrong reasons. Be prepared for that. It will take him a while to come around. Accept that the decision is hard for him and that he is treading in uncharted waters. I never wanted to go to counseling, but going changed my life. Before my A, I was the apparent model citizen, respected by all. Now many people know better and I have to live with what I did. I wish I had been able to face who I am and share that with my wife without doing what I did. <p>Sorry for the melancholy.<p>Take a blanket to the game. And have fun under that blanket [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] It will do your marriage good. Steer your H back to you.

Oh yes, it will also be cool at the Braves/Mets game tonight, but I am still excited. Spring break starts today for us and we will go to Florida as a family. Then I will take my W somewhere, sans kids, for a few days for our 22nd Anniversary (next Friday). Good luck with your H.<p>b

dear b-thanks for the insight again. you and my husband do sound similar. i will be here for him-always.
husband is also model person-we havent told anyone of affair.only 2 people know besides us. i dont think he can handle the light of day stuff. i dont mind for now. i guess i have to be patient on the relationship stuff until he starts to heal himself. i will work on that.<p>thank you for the insight on your situation. to some degree i believe husband stayed at first only for the kids and out of fear everyone would know what he had done. thats ok, i can and will make him fall "in love" with me again. im very loveable. anyway, thanks for sharing what you did about yourself, i know that is not easy. whenever you want to share or unburden-we are all here to support you and not be judgemental.<p>got ready,and yes i have the blanket! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] found it very difficult to look sexy and stay warm. gave up on the sexy and went with the warm. sexy is underneath!!<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>anyway-have to go for now-have a wonderfull time at your game too. i know we will.