I'm just wondering about your experiences and the state of your marriages prior to and during the A.<p>In my case, I, the BS, was the giver and my hubby, WS was the taker.<p>I cooked, cleaned, worked 4 parttime jobs, took care of the scheduling, took care of the kids, found babysitters and housekeepers, cleaned the house, kept the cars cleaned (especially the inside), worked in the church (very actively), visited the sick, was a good friend to my friends, took care of the finances, and the list could go on and on.<p>My WH went to work, came home, took care of the yard work (as little as he could get by with), fed the dogs, took out the trash, participated to some degree in church work. And that's about it.<p>I've discussed some of the MB principles with a friend and pointed out that I was not fulfilling his ENs. I was busy trying to be a good wife, but that wasn't enough for him. My friend thinks that even if I had been doing more of the right things that he probably would have had the A anyway and would probably have been even more blatant about it because he would be thinking he was so much the "King" of the castle and could do whatever he wanted.<p>I guess that brings me to my questions.
1) What are your thoughts on my friends theory? Do BOTH partners have to be committed to the fulfilling ENs program for it to work?<p>2) Was the BS the giver, and the WS the taker in your marriage?

jamup,<p>One of the most valuable lessons you can learn in a marriage is to view the relationship from your spouse's point-of-view. Often when an affair happens---you'll find that both spouse's would categorize themselves as the "giver", and categorize the other spouse as the "taker". And the spouse who slips first is the one who has the affair.<p>My guess would be that you were doing a terrific job meeting needs that YOU thought were important. But your husband probably would have been happier if you played racquetball with him twice a week, spent an hour an evening talking with him, and had sex with him 3x a week (or fill in whatever his needs really are). The MB program is designed for you to find out what your spouse's important needs (or "wants") really are, and then spend your time and effort learning to meet them, in the way that your spouse would like them met (via the Policy of Joint Agreement, so you're not building up resentment while doing this). You find that when you're "on target" with this need meeting, you're probably doing much less "work" and you're having a much happier marriage.<p>Ideally, you both do this together. But in a marriage under the siege of an affair, one of you needs to make the committment to start this program. That's usually the one who shows up on the boards here... And it's most commonly the betrayed spouse.

jamup,<p>In response to your questions:<p>__________________________________________________
1) What are your thoughts on my friends theory? Do BOTH partners have to be committed to the fulfilling ENs program for it to work?<p>2) Was the BS the giver, and the WS the taker in your marriage? _________________________________________________<p>1) Not sure I agree with your friend on # 1. I would think that the whole idea behind Plan A is to not hurt the relationship while waiting for the spouse to come out of the fog. Plan A requires one spouse to debit as many love bank units that the WS will will allow and commit as few love busters as possible. Why wait until there is a serious problem to intstitute Plan A? It seems unfair, but if the goal is to get back a loving relationship then I would consider it worth the effort. You may discover that your husband wants to improve the relationship as much as you, he is just not clear in how to make that happen.<p>2) We are all both givers and takers, it is a natural part of our psyche. I think that if the couple is "in love" then the giver & taker in each spouse is easier to control.<p>I think I understand how you feel. I am certain my spouse felt similarly before d-day. Thank God she was patient and forgiving enough to give me a chance to love her again.<p>And yes, I thought I was doing my part. I had no idea how to fix the marriage. It took my wife's discovery of my infidelity to lift my fog. We are on the long road back. Of course I wish we did not have to go through this but I am certain that the tools we are learning we help us for the remainder of our lives. <p>b

I was the WS and I would have catorgized myself as the giver. I always thought about my H's needs and made sure they were fulfilled...he said they were. The problem was that I didn't spend enough time fulfilling my own EN's and so I depended on H for them. He was clueless as to what MY needs were so he just filled the role as he thought he was supposed to do. He was a good provider, faithful and never physically abusive. That's what he thought made up the role of "good husband". Now he's taken over some of the household things so that I can help be a provider as well (working is important to me), and he's more tender and sensitive...and I even get flowers once in a while! (he used to ***** it was a waste of money because they only die...made me feel reallllll special).<p>I think the affair is less about what EN's the other spouse is or isn't fulfilling and more about a void in oneself.

What I learned from this whole nightmare was that my doing everything (to keep my H free to be able to work whenever he needed and get the play time he also needed) left him feeling unneeded to our family unit. <p>He felt like all he was needed for around here was a paycheck. If I had to work late, I would call my mother to pick the kids up from daycare instead of him (because I didn't want to bother his work plans). <p>I thought I was doing a good thing, when, in reality, all I was doing was making him feel so very unneeded.<p>He also let me know that he has been very lonely doing all the outside work (gardening, etc.) alone. This spring/summer, I'm going to say later to the housework on the weekends and be outside with my husband, doing things together, like we used to. We'll both feel good about getting things done and we'll be doing it together. The inside housework can wait until the weekdays, when he's at the office.<p>Also, I have come to realize that I wasn't doing a good job at all of making my husband feel like the "king" of the castle. I get the feeling that your friend thinks that there is something wrong with that. I can only tell you that since I have put forth an effort to say and do nice things for my husband (like I used to before kids), he has responded in a like way. <p>We all get too content and used to having our spouses around. Try to ease up on some of the things you do for others and use that newly freed up time to do for your husband. <p>Although I'm still in the early stages of this whole mess, I can't stress enough how once again putting my husband first has made a big difference in our recovery.

Believe me, I've given up most of what I used to do in order to try to fill his more important ENs. But where do you strike a balance. My house is a near wreck, I'm always behind on my work, and I'm not even tending to the finances like I need to. All of this is driving me up a wall because I want these things done properly. But instead its like I MUST fulfill his ENs over ANYTHING I desire to do (even if that ANYTHING is important too). Am I supposed to be content with a messy house the rest of my life? <p>And I understand that each spouse probably thinks they are the giver. Believe me, I almost left him the summer before the A because I was having to do it all. But instead of leaving, and instead of looking elsewhere to fulfill ENs, I choked it down and said,"Well I guess this is my life. My kids need a family unit, so I'll tolerate being worn out all of the time and never having ENs fulfilled for their sake." <p>Maybe a more appropriate question is: Who was the more mature member in the marriage? The BS or WS.

I CAN'T BELIEVE I MISSED K AGAIN!<p>listen to what he says-he knows what he speaks.

Jamup,<p>I think you are missing a point or two here. Please reread what K said to you. You should not end up swamped in trying to meet your H's needs. What should be happening is that you each fill out the ENQ. This prioritizes the needs. THen discuss how and when these needs will be met. For example you may want and need help around the house. You have a large list from which he can choose. BUT, the two of you must agree on this priorities.<p>Finally, when I read your list of duties plus the children, I thought to myself. THIS WOMAN IS OVERCOMMITTED. I think you are. Something may need to go, or be realigated to the level of do occasionally.<p>Talk with your H about this. It is in his best interest for you not to be overwhelmed.<p>So use the POJA rule as well as Harley's other rules: the rule of time, etc and see if you and H can strike a balance, but being willing to consider jestoning a few of your extra activities to pick up others to do with your H.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</p>

hurting3475,<p>
I must tell you something. In reading here over 3 years, you are the first woman that sounded like my W. And yes I thought just like your H. Fortunately, I found this site before I did something really stupid. No not an affair, but a divorce.<p>Isn't it interesting that you could do all of that for your H and what he really felt was unneeded? All he really wanted to feel was loved and needed, how simple? Man, Oh Man, your post got to me.<p>I truely hope that you and your H are happier now, that you know what was needed: to be needed and have you accompany him in life. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>God Bless,<p>JL

Not only were you not meeting his Emotional needs, but yours weren't being met either. I KNOW!! No matter what you were or were not doing, the A was his fault alone!!

In our marriage...we were just so darned busy. With 4 kids and all their activities, My H gone all the time....I took over the competent role....and he didn't feel needed. That is so sad.<p>I did tell him how much I appreciated him tho. And when I look back now...a lot of that year when he wasn't coming home...was his choice. He admitted to many one night stands...looking for passion. Too bad he didn't do that at home. Oh well...<p>I was way to busy tho...between work, school and kids' activities. I was exhausted by the time he got home. It just wasn't good...and an affair was waiting to happen. I just wouldn't believe that he would go down that path again....he knew what it did to us. He obviously didn't care. <p>I knew our marriage was in trouble...but I didn't see a way out. I thought we were both working towards the goal of getting him through probation. We almost made it...at least from my standpoint. Little did I know that he was out there actively looking for "passion". I hope he is happy....because there is no coming back now.

I read the giver/taker portion of this website the other night. Quite interesting. I'd say in the year prior to his A, we were both takers. I just didn't par"take" in infidelity. But I did adopt the attitude that he wasn't going to see to my happiness, so it was up to me. Therefore I consumed myself with busy work that I wanted to do. It's just that my busy work was a lot more beneficial to the family as a whole than his A was. But both were wrong. I can see that now.

When I first began to see the first tiny break in the thick fog (about 6 weeks after H moved out) he told me "I am a taker and you are a giver. I know that I am a selfish person and right now I just feel like doing what I feel like doing." I must say now that since the end of the A our relationship is MUCH more balanced.