Been less than 4 days since I found out H had PA. One night stand and extenuating circumstances - decided quickly to forgive. H seems very willing to work MB. We've been spending time together w/ no distractions - new & hard for us. He works some crazy hours (car dealership) and our bedtimes are typically opposite. We've been working on spending time together after the kids go to bed (3 kids, age 5 & under) but simply don't know what to do together! Pre-A he would watch TV & I would read - 2 floors above! We were so despirate the first night w/out TV that we played hangman (he thought I was nuts) and he even painmted my toenails! Anybody out there have some ideas on what to do together - we're just lost!

Check out these books...<p>Passion:

1. A Celebration of Sex by Dr. Douglas E. Rosenau
2. [b]Light His Fire [/b]: How to Keep Your Man Passionately and Hopelessly in Love by Ellen Kreidman
3. [b]Passionate Marriage :[/b] Love, Sex, and Intimacy in Emotionally Committed Relationships by David Schnarch
4. [b]Sex Begins in the Kitchen :[/b] Because Love Is an All-Day Affair by Kevin Leman
5. [b]What Husbands Wish Their Wives Knew About Men[/b] by Patrick M. Morley
6. [b]What Wives Wish Their Husbands Knew About Women[/b] by James C. Dobson

<p>They're from the Books link.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim/NSR

lorrainegd<p>Have you and your H done the Recreational Companionship questionsaire from MB? If not, then I would give it a try. You might be surprised at the things you and your H both might like or like to try that you never knew about. Good Luck<p>Regretting

dear lorrainegd-i know exactly what your up against. you are exhausted by the time he gets home-about 9:30-10:00pm, your day was long and its time to relax and go to sleep-yet he is just comming home and hasn't unwound yet-i know this because my hubby runs a dealership. and the stress from the crazy people. what does your hubby do-sales? anyway a few suggestions-learn how to massage. then teach him. we do massage nights here-he gets one one night ad my turn another. it was fun learning and fun teaching him... and he now loves it. find essential oils he likes and use them with the massage. we also play cards. its very difficult because of the hours he probably keeps, we found that just talking for awhile about the day and maybe dinner together-we eat in front of fireplace regularly, is enough. we spend majority of our time on weekends, when we can plan things better. its hard in the beginning, it does get easier- i do like the hangman idea, mind if i steal it?? he'll think im nuts too. good luck

Found this post particularly interesting. Four posts and 2 have H's working/owning car dealerships. Add mine to the list. I want to know, not how to fill up 15 hours of time, but how to manage 15 hours of time! My H leaves for work approx. 8:30 a.m. and returns usually close to midnight. No hangman, no massages, no nothing after that day. Funny, too, (not really) but is there something about car dealerships that cause marriage problems? Mine hasn't been working there only but a year, and shortly after that is when our problems started. Just curious.

dear jai-i cant type out your name cause i dont think you are an idiot.<p>the car industry is notorius for this. the hours and stress is hell on families. ive been at this for ten years. kids dont see dad but 2 days a wwek. it sucks. i use to say i was the happiest married single mother of two you could meet. boy did that bite me in the a$$. my hubby leaves at 8:00 and returns at 10:00. thats not if they get stuck late. is the midnight thing normal for you?? that is really late. does he have a commute?<p>anyway i know a lot of marriages that have suffered due to this bussiness. too much time apart-it causes separate lives. where are you guys from?

My husband works about 1 -1 1/4 hours away, so his hours are really long most of the week once you tack that on to the time he's at the dealership. He leaves around 7:300 am and gets home around 10 or 11. Most of the time I don't actually know what tome he gets home because I've long been asleep. Some days I can't get past 8. (The three kids wear me out and I'm in treatment for clinical depression.)In hind site, I guess not knowing what time he gets home is probably not smart. <p>He is the head finance and insurance manager at a Toyota dealership. As far as the car business goes, I'm rather fortunate. In PA, the blue laws prevent car sales on Sun, so he always has off then. He also get a second day off and one day he goes in late (1pm) and one day he gets out early (5pm) MOST weeks. It doesn't always happen (like end of month or when someone else is out). It is so much better that his last job when he only had off one day & worked open to close the other 6! <p>I'm trying to stay up later on his late nights. But I think mostly our problem was avoiding each other when he was home. We do not like to do the same things at night. He does nothing when he's home but veg in front of the TV. I can't just sit & watch TV. I have too much to do! I will read sometimes oir I just go to sleep. But after the kids were in bed, we pretty much went as far apart from each other in the house as we could. Now were spending time together and are not sure what to do. The physical seems obvious, but I'm not entirely comfortable with that yet. Things are still pretty raw. Last night he gave me a bath. I waas really uncomfortable at first and it really seemed silly, but it was actually quite relaxing.<p>Hangman - the first word I used was the first one that came to mind - COMMITMENT.<p>From what I understand, marriages in the car business have the second highest rate of divorce - after police officers or something like that. As the wife of a "car guy" you do end up leading your own life. I took joke about being a single mom. It sure seems that way at times. You do everything yourself - care for the kids, the houyse, him - when is there time for yourself or for you as a couple when so much of his time is at work and when he is home, you have to deal w/the kids. Before d-day, I hated when he was home. He disrupts everything when he is. The kids are so used to him not being around that when he is they are insanely out of control. And of course he doesn't help much - he gets them going...<p>It so nice to talk to someone who knows what I'm going through - all the way round. lorrainegd@hotmail.com

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by nikko:
<strong>the car industry is notorius for this. the hours and stress is hell on families. ive been at this for ten years. kids dont see dad but 2 days a wwek. it sucks. i use to say i was the happiest married single mother of two you could meet. boy did that bite me in the a$$. my hubby leaves at 8:00 and returns at 10:00. thats not if they get stuck late. is the midnight thing normal for you?? that is really late. does he have a commute?<p>anyway i know a lot of marriages that have suffered due to this bussiness. too much time apart-it causes separate lives. where are you guys from?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>We're from New York. How have you made it through ten years? He doesn't seem to get that the too much time apart causes separate lives. My girls only see him 2 days a week, if that. Mostly just on Sundays. No commute, just a very large dealership that needs more help if you ask me. He's not a salesman. I, too, feel like a single mother of two, but saying things like that I have learned just make him angry. We're working on things -- well, I am at least. Throwing away the anger and resentment and just trying to make things good when we are together. But not sure if that's going to be good enough. I think I'm reaching the point where I honestly (most times) don't care if it works or not. I've hit my breaking point I think. Whatever is going to happen is going to happen.
Thanks for listening.

JAI
I too had been to the point of not really caring whether he was here or not. I've been hanging in there 10 years too - 7 of them married. I think it really got bad after the 3rd kid. I love my kids and at times I feel like they're all I have. But I started getting really mad that he wasn't helping. Dealing w/the kids & the depression was just too much. Finaaly when he was here, I used him as a babysitter and took time for myself. Helped me a little bit, but wreeked havoc on our marriage. I told H I need him to SHOW me that I am the #1 priority in his life - the kids #2 - then the dealership.... (the dealership's always been first)

dear lorrainegd- we too use to live 1 1/2 hrs from husbands work. it was hell. i know exactly what you are going through. i truelly believe that that was the beginning of the end. 2 yrs ago husband uprooted us and moved us from family and support to where we live now. kids were devasted and so was i. i loved where we lived. kids missed grandma and grandpa and new schools and such. so we move i go into depression and 6 months later the dealership tells him they are restructuring. he loses job. goes back to the old dealership he use to work at and becomes top guy. i hated this place then and now after all this i hate it more. <p>i too understand the he disrupts things. he hated that he felt not important and that we had a life without him. i bet your husband feels the same. he had no input on day to day and when he would be home he would try the king of the castle thing. use to drive me crazy. what i didnt know was how much it hurt him. think about that. he works all these hours for family so you can have a good life and he isnt even welcome in his own home. it made me feel bad. there is no excuse for the behavior but you have to change the things that made him feel he needed to go elsewhere. really look at your actions. its hard but its part of recovery. keep posting and reading- it helps.<p>this goes for you too jai-its hard. its a long bumpy road to recovery.<p>and about the being #1 priority-you'll love this-right after d-day husband gets promoted to gsm. i had no input on this, he made decision to do this on his own without concern for us-he was in affair at time. so when d-day comes, 2 weeks later the promotion comes through, and he tells me that i have to be patient, that he needs 3 months to get the job straightened out and comfortable in the position before he can deal with what is going on in marriage. yes ladies he said this and still is breathing!! put the job ahead of my well being and our marriage again.i couldnt believe it. however, 4 months later he is coming along.<p>quick question-was the affair with co-worker?

What makes it even harder is when he does have a day scheduled off and he says "these guys (not all guys either) want to know if I can play cards". Now the old me would get mad and scream and yell, etc. The new me says sure, no problem like I don't care and sit here crying and trying to pull myself together for the kids. I know he works his a.. off and deserves it but it just makes it so much harder when what little time we could have is taken away too. Sorry. Just needed to get that off my chest. Thanks for listening. But the thing that bothers me most is wondering if his "friend" is one of those guys. It would be so much easier knowing if "she" was going to be there but then again, I can't ask that either.

i can solve the card night thing. we had the same problem. we now have poker games at our house and i host them. it is all guys though. the guys would never turn this down cause im a gourmet cook. they love it, and i feel better that they are here. husband would have it no other way. he also knows there is not a chance in hell he is going to someone else's house right now.(ha ha ha)<p>jai- could you give me a little more info on your situation? if your not comfortable enough yet that is ok<p>[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: nikko ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by nikko:
<strong>jai- could you give me a little more info on your situation? if your not comfortable enough yet that is ok[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: nikko ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Not that I'm not comfortable, I just don't know where to begin. I think I posted here a while back, everything is so foggy right now. I got the "i love you but not in love with you" speech back in December, I think, but things hadn't been good for some time before that. Lots of fighting, lots of anger, lots of ignoring on both parts. He just wouldn't speak up. The more I withdrew, the more he withdrew, you get the picture. He almost left right before Christmas, couldn't take it anymore, but didn't want to ruin the holidays! What a joke. Still didn't open up much. Then he wanted to go on a trip with some guys from work and I lost it. I did all the wrong things in the beginning. I cried, I begged, I pleaded, you name it. Discovered that was all the wrong things to do since it just pushed him further away. He almost left again in January. Then things were sort of status quo for a month. Then he informs me that we will get divorced some day. Turns out he couldn't handle my controlling behavior, which of course had been getting worse since all of this happened. Had I known, I could've tried harder from the beginning, but I guess that's neither here nor there at this point. Told him I'd try, but he has to let me know when I slip up. Been trying to give him the freedom he needs, just want respect in return, like him letting me know when he's going out, etc., and me not getting angry when he does, etc. It's just hard since he works soooooooo much. I want him here when he's not but he also has himself to take care of too and I understand that. And I try to be understanding. Now here's the hardest part in all of this. His "friend". Swears she's just a friend, but we all know how hard that is to believe. Some times I do believe it. Says she didn't cause our problems and I agree with that, I just don't think she's helping matters much. If he was just going out with the "guys", I could be much more tolerant, I think. Cuz most of the time I really don't want him around now since I have to watch everything I say and do and it seems like I am the only one who is trying. But maybe I'm not.
Well, this was a big jumbled mish-mash, wasn't it?
Aren't you glad you asked? I am, feels good to get it out sometimes. Thanks for listening and caring and any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Does he get home early enough to have cook outs?<p>What about having your own card games? maybe a game of strip poker just the two of you??<p>Can you get a sitter one night a week get the kids in bed and then the two of you go out to dinner?<p>Do you both like board games? find some that the two of you both enjoy playing..and play those..<p>What about going to the grocery store together?
or shopping together? making sure to hold hands when you walk through the store and parking lot..<p>what about joint showers?? go in and wash his back once the kids are in bed and sleeping?? <p>Buy some little snack type finger foods, crackers and cheese, or grapes (w/ smoked cheese), strawberries, things you can feed each other..melt some chocolate or something and make a fondue??
Carrots and dip..or celery w/ p-nut butter...<p>I personally like the fruits and veggies that you can dip and feed each other..because it brings a certain romantic ombience to the equation..<p>Lay a blanket on the floor, light some candles, get some nice smelling lotions and give each other body massages..and you can talk about your days and how things are going during these times too...<p>cook a meal together..and clean up together when your done..<p>hope these ideas are helpful...<p>[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</p>

The affair was with a dancer in a strip club. The first words out of my mouth (after WHAT?) were "Well you know damn well you're not going to see the inside of a strip club ever again." I had never had a problem with him going before. I had even gone with him more than a couple times. Boy do I feel like a fool now.
I'm glad it wasn't some one at work, though. He spends so much time there, I don't know if I could handle it. I don't think that he would let that happen there for fear that I would find out. I had stopped there before and I didn't know it bet there was this one girl putting the moves on him. Well if she didn't give me the biggest attitude when I walked in. I asked him what was up with her - who is she? She made me feel like I had no right toi be there. Then he told me the story and he laughhed for weeks. The other guys were telling him she had something for him but he didn't believe it & I could tell the minute I walked in the door. I think that really gave him something to think about. I'm not as stupid as he makes me feel sometimes.<p>Nikko- I think I would be out the door if he had put his job before me like that. You must be a very strong tollerant woman. But at times it really is a fault isn't it? They get away with so much because we are such wonderful people [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm a stay-at-home mom, and my favorite is that he says on his day off he wants to be able to just do nothing. He basically wants to act like he has no kids and can come & go as he pleases. HA!<p>I have been trying to make him feel more important & needed around here. Not long after my depression was diagnosed I read the book "The Surrendered Wife". It really helped me realize how controlling I was being. Now my husband pays the bills and I try to let him "be the man" in the relationship. I know it sounds kinda sexist, but it makes us both feel good. He feels important and I feel taken care of. I like it because I know I don't NEED it. It's a decision. I think that he likes following through with earning a living for us by paying for things. Plus, he now knows "where all the money goes", which was something he never understood when that was my job.<p>We also did the Emotional Needs survey the other day. I think that we were both enlightened. My therapist also suggested I tell him what he can do for me to "make it up to me" (although therapist agreed it could take YEARS) and although that feels too much like taking advantage to me, I have been better about making a point to tell him that I like feeling cared for and protected and which things that he does makes me feel that way.<p>Sorry if this ais a bit disjointed, I have 3 screaming kids running around me as I'm posting!

dear lorrainegd and jai- we really have to change your log on name-i feel so disrespectful using it.<p>anyway thanks for the input jai- i dont understand the affair part. is it that you believe he's had affair or do you have proof? or have you not found out yet? the whole controlling thing for us is hard. we have to be in-charge of everything 80% of the time and all of a sudden they walk in and expect that to change. i kinda was the same way. so what i did was this-handed over all the banking, that way when a problem with checkbook arose-he understood. took him soooo long to figure it all out. i also went back to work after second son was born. he is now 6. his other off day is tues. i work a 15 hour day on tues. big 'ol welcome to my world kinda thing. opened his eyes to my life. and having the job saves my sanity. i love it. he realized i wasnt sitting around eating bon bons all day.<p>now onto you lorraine- thanks for sharing. i think we totally highjacked this thread into something different. but in our situation with the hours its a whole new ball game. ive learned to take naps-it helps. how old are the kids?? mine are 12 and 6 and i usually have every kid in the neighborhood besides. they are boys by the way.<p>i managed to survive her being a co-worker(she was actually working for my husband in his dept.) only because the gen. mang. at the time is our best friend. so mysteriously her job got boved about 30 miles away to different location. i did after d-day go to dealership-i have never met her by the way-to stand my ground. i would not let her scare me off. no one knew except boss who is a friend, and another of husbands employees. he was husbands cover. when he saw me coming-i just wish i had a camera. he and husband went white. i at the time had no idea that husband and ow decided to be friends-after all it all started from them being friends. she hid and never came out. i did this a few times to get my point across, then she was transferred. oh well.<p>i want you to know it wasnt strength that made me take the commentabout waiting till he got into job. it was pure shock. i have been diagnosed with post traumatic stress dissorder. gotta love that. i had been in shock since d-day. i went on anti-d's and they have helped. he has gone past the 3 month mark- as a matter of fact tomorrow will be 4 months into this. we are slowly trying. i have gained my strength back and know i will be ok no matter what. so im staying to try.

JAI-
I agree the nickname has to go.<p>Nikko
Talking to you on 2 board simultaniously. Seems like we have a lot in common. I do nap - too much. It's the depression and by mid day I can barely function lately. I was doing well on meds before d-day, but now, not so well. Dr offered to up my meds, but I'm already on 40mg (Istarted at 20) and like you am afraid to change.<p>Kids are: girl - 6; boy - 3; boy - 19 mos.
Still really young and really needy. I feel bad because I often just can't handle it all and shut down. The kids are pretty independent even as young as they are, out of neccesity. They seem OK. It's muchbetter than before meds. I used to really lose my temper w/them.<p>You do have your own strength. I'm sure you've been told that PTSD is your way of dealing. And if it keeps you from coming completely unglued, more power to you. Has he come around yet - to working it out?

dear lorraine-i do have my own strength. my foundation was shaken but my marriage is not all i am. it took me a while to remember that. the shock lasted till anti d's kicked in. that was right before the holidays. they have helped alot. i dont want to change them because they are working. for the most part i am not in a depressive state. i sometimes, maybe once or twice a month feel down. what you describe seems to still be full blown depression. you may want to re-think what doc said or maybe try a different one. the zoloft doesnt really make me any more tired than i was.<p>im guessing daughter is in kindergarten? do the boys do any play groups? you have to find a way to have time for yourself. i put my little one into nursury school an extra day a week to get catch-up time or me time. i really needed that. now that he is in kindergarten i sometimes have the nursury school pick him up for after care. maybe 2 times a month. gives me some alone time. maybe you could get a mothers helper-school age girl to come in and play with the boys for a few hours. my neighbors daughter does this and its wonderful. she is soon to become our only choice for a sitter when needed. big plus is her mom is across street. find a way for you!<p>as far as my husband coming around-in the beginning he read saa and we did en questionaire. i really though we had it made. trust me it rarely goes that easy. i found out a month later they were still talking. felt like an idiot. it was like a big ol slap in the face. thats when the depression took full hold. then an amazing thing happened---i got pissed. not outwardly to my husband--but just pissed. how dare he not think i was good enough. well the old me came out with a vengance. we refer to her as my evil twin. she can be quite nasty. that part of me is my strength. i came back with a vengance. i was not going to let this destroy me. and i have been healing me ever since. <p>now as far as my hubby- he is what we refer to as a conflict avoider. has a lot of emotional withdrawal. we are just starting to deal with it now. our date the other nite was great conversation and i learned a lot. so did he. he often asks me whats wrong- i chose not to tell him because i know emotionally he is not ready to deal yet. so i told him his, i said i dont think you are ready to deal with what youve done to me- he was amazed that through all my pain i was worried about him. i know he is trying- he just needs help to get un-emotionally stuck.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by nikko:
<strong>anyway thanks for the input jai- i dont understand the affair part. is it that you believe he's had affair or do you have proof? or have you not found out yet?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>For Nikko. Thanks for responding. That's just the thing, I'm not sure. I think it most probably is what you all term a EA. Didn't even know about EAs before all this!! Just thought oh, no sex, no affair. But actually, now I'm thinking I'd rather him go have sex with someone and skip the emotional part of it!! Know that's sick but it just breaks my heart seeing him typing away to her and having barely two words to say to me. And to know he's with her all day, although I know not together but...you get the picture. And it's always lateley "so and so (her) said this" and if he got something and I ask where it's from he's like "her" using her name. Not gifts, mind you, just borrowed. So that's why I'm on this forum. Not the emotional needs one -- that's a whole different can of worms. I just don't know how to deal with it. Getting mad and withdrawing didn't help so now I just cope, even talk about her sometimes. Sometimes I think when he's on the computer emailing her and I am there he is testing me to see how I will react. I used to get upset but not anymore (well, I don't show it at least). I'm sorry if I'm posting on the wrong forum or thread or whatever, I'm just so confused.

dear jai-you are not on the wrong forum-unfortunately. your husband is having an affair, an emotional one. im sorry, it sucks. i understand now, i wasnt questioning you about being here, i just thought maybe you had escaped the pain. sorry.<p>i have a long day at work today-will check in late tonight. you guys hang in there and ill check back with you later.