I keep reading and hearing about the reason's people have Affairs. The big reason is communication and that the WS's needs aren't being met. Well my needs weren't being met. I did much more for him than he did for me. I did much more for him than she did. I begged him to talk to me. I asked him several times what he didn't like about me so I could change. This all B4 little miss twit walked into the picture. I don't believe that is the reason. I had much more reason to cheat and I didn't. Why? Because I was committed and I cared. That is the reason people cheat they were only committed when it was convienent and only cared when it was easy. This has probably always been true and when opportuninty knocked at the right moment they took it. Yes the marriage had it's problems but that is not the reason only the excuse. Does anybody agree.
Passmeby<p>Me 40, H 42
D-day/R-day Nov 1 2001
2 Boys 20 & 18
Working hard on the marriage

pass - there are many here who will agree with you, especially me. Yep, my needs weren't being met, either, and I didn't have an affair. That said, I didn't do a good job communicating that my needs weren't being met and I tolerated the situation for too long. I regret not trying to get our marriage professional help much earlier.<p>Love between spouses is conditional upon meeting each other's needs. We can sustain our love during tough times by drawing on our love bank accounts - entering "unconditional love" mode for awhile. Some, like you and I perhaps, were willing to be more patient during the tough times - recognizing the love potential of the future. Others either can't do this, or won't.<p>Some here will debate the other personality traits influencing whether a person becomes a WS in addition to the simple love bank account balance. There can be lots of other factors.

Some of my needs weren't being met either. I know this will sound terrible, but sometimes I really feel that it all comes down to selfishness. I kept doing too much which isn't healthy (being a caretaker) and my H had all of the time in the world to pursue OW (my former best friend). In that light, I gave them even more opportunity to be together. And he took advantage of it and had his affair. And being selfish again, lied about it for 6 years while I almost had a nervous breakdown.<p>Now he is reluctant to do some of the counseling homework because 'he's in a different place.' Well sure, he had 6 years to heal. I've had 8 mos and can't take anti depressants due to being pregnant. He doesn't want to 'go back there' and is trying to protect himself. He just doesn't get it, he probably never will. Unless I sleep with HIS best friend in HIS bed and then lie about it to protect the OM.

My needs were not getting met either. Did express through counseling that I wanted to go out, without the kids, on a date. WH didn't want anyone babysitting the kids besides me. I wanted to be treated special once in a while. I stayed for committment to God, to my WH, and to knowing that our relationship could be better. <p>Of course, that is why the WS goes out of the picture I feel. They are the dominate one in the family, they are the one who are controllers, they are the one who control the household while they are having fun with the sexual other person.<p>I stayed cause I made vows, I made a committment and I beieve in christianity. My WH doesn't believe in vows, he has stated it here. One asked him what his vows would be, just for he to be him. Wow, I wonder what our creator thinks of that. Wish I knew that was his story in the beginning. Anyways, I feel us BS's are looking at life in a realistic manner, with full heart committment, and are not liers like the WS. Just my opinion. The lies are still coming.

There really seems to be a common thread for many of us who were the BS. I to have not had many of my needs met and like worthatry, I wasn't very good about communicating them either. D-day for me was around a year ago and it has been up and down since then. <p>Reading the book SA really helps to understand why, but remember sometimes the head and the heart don't agree, we may understand it but accepting it is something else entirely!<p>I do know that it is important to take care of you first, esp now! A reminder of this is what you learn when you ride an airplane. They tell you if the oxygen masks fall for any reason, put yours on first, then help others even if it is your child. Sounds rather cruel, but so true, you have to be able to help yourself or you will be of no good to any others.<p>Please don't be afraid to pat yourself on the back for something you have done, keep a journal of things you are proud of and read it when you are down. This is journey, but can be done, it does take faith but that is okay! Believing in marriage is really a good thing, it is a commitment and not one to taken lightly.<p>WS do look at this differently, I know the A is proof of that. This site really helps becuase what is shared here is the reality of what happens after the A, I find it has helped me more than once to read somthing and see myself there.
Take care of you!

Worthatry,Maggierose,Thinker,Oh so confused
Thank you all for your words of wisdom and for responding. I too tollerated the situation too long, I did way too much for him, which allowed him to become so selfish. I should add that my H has seen the light so to speak. He is making any and all efforts to improve himself and our relationship. We are in counseling and it is helping. Right now I just don't want to do any thing separate. Taking care of us right now is taking care of me. I just get mad, when I hear the reason for the A being problems in the marriage, I just don't by that.
Thank you all again.
Passmeby

everyone here has valid points. i too was in much the same boat as everyone else. there will be excuses and reasons out the ying yang. what it came down to for me is we are all human, god made us with flaws and weaknesses. some may get to the breaking point of these weaknesses before others. god made me strong, i can carry this load for now. when my husband heals himself he will lesson my load. i never thought he was perfect. neither am i. he just screwed up first.

It's VERY common that when one spouse's needs aren't being met, the other spouse's needs aren't being met, as well. Sorry, but you don't get a medal for that. This is because NEITHER SPOUSE has effective relationship skills for that particular relationship...or the A would have never happened. True relationship skills involve being able to interpret the other person's meaning just as much, if not more so, than being able to express your own meaning. <p>Needs not being met is what "weakens" a relationship. Both spouses are responsible for needs not being met (both their spouse's needs and their own if that don't communicate effectively).<p>The fault in the affair comes into play because the person who had the affair did not PROTECT their weaknesses. They did not protect themselves from being vulnerable to temptation. Anyone can reach this point, given the right circumstances, so it's not right or fair to make a statement like the title of this topic. You have no way to say what you "would have done" or "would not have done" if enough time had passed and enough temptation had come your way. You have what you THINK you would or would not have done...but that doesn't hold a lot of weight. Perhaps all you needed to have an affair was time or opportunity, and there's no way to tell for sure what you would have done. Most WS's would say (I certainly did) that they never thought they would have had an affair before the fact...but they did anyway.<p>Both of the spouses are typically at fault regarding unmet needs...but the A happened because the WS did not protect their weaknesses (either because they didn't want to or didn't know how to...or didn't realize that there were weaknesses to begin with). Before my A, neither myself or my S.O. had any real concept of "needs", "love banks", "love busters", etc...it's a shame that all this knowledge has to come after the fact, and not before.<p>[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]</p>

TTF,<p>I think you've grasped exactly what (I believe) the Harleys are talking about. There's no particular character fault in having an affair (though, in some instances of habitual WS, there certainly is).<p>I think it goes just one small step beyond what you've stated. Not only did the WS not protect themselves and their weaknesses, but their needs BEGAN TO GET MET outside the marriage. I would venture to say that most people don't go out LOOKING to have an affair. Now, they may at some point think to themselves, "I think I should have an affair with..." but IMO, they've probably already been getting some of their needs met by the new person, and probably saw the POTENTIAL for further needs to be met.<p>True, they ultimately CHOSE to have the affair, and for that, they must be accountable. But I don't think the simple fact of having an affair necessarily makes a person inherantly bad.<p>I'm glad someone touched on this. I wanted to reply in kind right after PBM posted this, but didn't want to come out sounding like I was defending an A.<p>Kev

Towardsthefuture
I just want to say I have been in vulnerable position of weather or not to move forward with an affair. This was 9 years ago, My H had just confessed after 3 years of lies, neglect to the kids, neglect to me and steeling money from IRA, savings and checking that he was hooked on Cocain. I pleaded with him to get help he refused. He did eventually beat the addiction on his own but our relationship was seriously strained. I had known this man I played a mutual sport with for 10+ years. When we first had met he asked me out, I said no that I was married. I knew he still was attracted to me and I enjoyed that. We saw each other on and off through the years. He started coming around again right at the time my H confessed. He was having trouble in his new marriage and asked for advise. I gave it and I listened. I found myself looking forward to seeing him again. Then one day when he came I gave him a big hug this was a line I should have never crossed. I realized this and how this was not a time to make this decission and never went back to that club. So no I don't believe every one is a possible cheater. I MOST CERTAINLY AM NOT! AND I AM VERY PROUD OF THAT FACT!
Sorry to disagree.
Passmeby

I think problems in the marriage can be a major component, but it doesn't explain all affairs. Y'know, sometimes someone is just stupid, selfish or vulnerable and opportunity knocks...and may knock long enough that you find yourself in a position you did not intend. <p>I still believe choices are made all the way along, and most WS do realize fairly soon they are doing something that is worthy at least of being secret from their spouse. That is thinking & deciding. I do not believe in any "swept away" theory.<p>[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</p>

My needs were not being met & I didn't have an A. My H left in 99 to take care of his sick Dad & never really came back. Prior to that time, we were in withdrawal as MB suggests. I was sick & tired of his constantly control me & it seemed like no matter what I did, it wasn't good enough or right. I had been lonley for a long time.<p>After he left, I thought about an A, but realized that was not for me. I too like thinker mad vows to not only my H, but to God. That relationship at least for me, kept me from taking the next step. I avoided men & didn't go out much in that I knew I felt vulnerable. I prayed & had others praying for me. I was lonley & hurt.<p>It's hard for me to understand when WS's say they never thought it would happen to them. There are always little steps that lead to any relationship. In appropriate little steps in the case of A's. Your body goes where your mind has already been. I try hard to guard my mind & only put in it what I want out of it. So far it has worked. <p>WH did not have his needs met as well. When I asked how did the A's happen (with 2 OW) he said he didn't know, it just happened. It just happened bcos he spent time with her, he shared things with her that should have only been shared within our M, he talked with her, did things with her kids....excuse me...it just happened? <p>I do look at it as a character issue, a self esteem issue. If I had been the one to have an A, no doubt I would look at this differenly. I didn't though. I am greatful for that.

Most affairs, especially in long term marriages, are the result of depression on the part of the WS. It is impossible to meet the "needs" of someone who is clinically depressed.<p>I very much doubt that there are very many people in any marriage whose "needs" are all met. After reading here long enough, it is obvious that affairs happen in marriages that even the WS says were happy, in marriages that have just begun; in marriages where tragedy has occurred. Oftentimes the betrayer DOES go out looking for the affair, as is the case with most Internet affairs. Even in real life, I firmly believe that betrayers, through body language or responses to interactions with others, let others know they are "available." <p>Affairs are about something missing in the betrayer.<p>[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</p>

It's quite predictable how the "causes" for affairs can be relegated to the perspective-driven choice of terminology used by either the betrayers or the betrayed.<p>To the betrayers, anybody is "vulnerable" and it's only a shortcoming in protecting their "weaknesses" while in a vulnerable state - due in part to the inability of the betrayed to meet their needs that created the vulnerable state to begin with.<p>To the betrayed, becomimg a betrayer is a selfish, wrongful, hurtful, vicious, "conscious decision" regardless of the rationalized justifications the betrayer can manufacture.<p>This will be a permanent gulf between the naturally polarized parties whose emotions are driven by their corresponding perspectives.<p>We should simply accept this and not waste our time debating it.<p>OK, I'll shut up now.

Peter and Judas were betrayers. I guess you just have to decide which you will help your spouse emulate. Moses, David, Paul and countless others were used by God after they fell. That offers hope for those of us who yielded to temptation. Hopefully, it will also offer you strength to forgive.

plain and simple: NO there is never any excusable reason to cheat. There are ALWAYS other options.<p>That said, a marriage where needs are not being met for a spouse DOES create temptation when he/she sees they might get it from someone else.

Hmm. well going back a bit, my needs were not being met, I did not cheat, but I was bad at communicating my needs or working through the problem. I did the worst thing which was withdraw a bit from the relationship. Which made her withdraw a bit. Gradually growing apart we were both tempted I know. But she was a bit weaker.<p>I share the blame of the marriage problems, we need to both work on it.
The affair is her fault alone, but as a husband I'll help her shoulder the burden of overcoming that too. (or at least Im trying to [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) <p>-HI

Your UNMET needs did not weaken your character .... nor did your UNMET needs undermine your value system ... to the point where you would betray YOURSELF and bankrupt your self worth by becoming an adulterer.<p>We ALL have UNMET needs .... our character and our self respect determine what we choose to do about meeting those UNMET needs ... we can choose to behave either honourably or dishonourably.<p>Those who choose to have an affair to fulfill their UNMET needs via adultery, are performing a most terrible act of self-betrayal... and they reveal a bankrupt love-bank and respect-bank for themselves. They do not respect their own vows and they betray their honour.<p>My opinion.... thanks for reading.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Posted by TTF
It's VERY common that when one spouse's needs aren't being met, the other spouse's needs aren't being met, as well. Sorry, but you don't get a medal for that. This is because NEITHER SPOUSE has effective relationship skills for that particular relationship...or the A would have never happened. True relationship skills involve being able to interpret the other person's meaning just as much, if not more so, than being able to express your own meaning.
Needs not being met is what "weakens" a relationship. Both spouses are responsible for needs not being met (both their spouse's needs and their own if that don't communicate effectively).<p>The fault in the affair comes into play because the person who had the affair did not PROTECT their weaknesses. They did not protect themselves from being vulnerable to temptation.<hr></blockquote><p>I think this pretty much sums it up. We both had unmet needs, I even think mine were greater than his (at least, if you look at our EN q'aires, there are many more and larger gaps). But, I DID protect my weaknesses, he didn't. Funny thing is that I knew all along that I could fall if I wasn't careful, and so I set careful boundaries on my friendships with men. He, OTOH, was very, very sure he could never stray...and so he didn't set boundaries in a friendship, and the next thing you know, he's "inlove".<p>Go figure.

Something about this thread bothered me yesterday, but since I am both FBS/FWS, I am frequently bothered and couldn't quite place the source for this one.<p>Today, I think it is these 3 ideas:<p>1) Envy. I won't ever have that peace of mind of the other posters on this thread that I would never be unfaithful. Like Hanging, I don't believe there ever is a good reason for infidelity. Even as I was a BS, separated off & on for nearly 2 years and serving D papers WAS NOT justification. However, I made that choice, it wasn't fog. Nor does my H have the peace of mind that he wouldn't be unfaithful.<p>2) Probably averaging at least once a month, I MB post to a non-divorced BS who wants to or is about to or is dating. Thinks they "deserve some happiness" or whatever. There are a lot of BSs on MB who have felt that way. To me, wanting to have someone is part of the grieving. Finding and considering a real person as a prospect is a major sign of lovebank drain. Actually dating is almost always the end of the reconciliation process. My H & I are an exception, but it was very difficult for him to bring me back to the point of reconciliation. He had not only not met my needs, he'd been WS awful. Usually the divorce goes through from the point we were at, from what I've seen here.<p>3) My guilt, both at giving up on my marriage, though timewise it seemed prudent, self-protection to do so. 7 separations are a good indication it isn't ever going to work. The second guilt is dating before divorce, because as Pepperband so eloquently states, my actions were not honorable. And they had been up to that point, with plenty of temptation & opportunity I had said no to. <p>I hope you all keep that belief & practice that you will never be unfaithful...just...be aware too that to do so, you may really have to guard yourself against close relationships with OP, much as passerby did.

Excellent thread. I will start by saying my post will be long because I want to include a few comments from others and elaborate on my own opinion. <p>For starters, Lor - fabulous insights. I am so glad you posted that. Sharing from both sides of the fence as one is so insightful, especially for this thread. I feel you pain in your words, but see you are progresses well forward. Best to you, and thanks for sharing.<p>Nikko wrote:<p><<what it came down to for me is we are all human, god made us with flaws and weaknesses. some may get to the breaking point of these weaknesses before others. god made me strong, i can carry this load for now. when my husband heals himself he will lesson my load. i never thought he was perfect. neither am i. he just screwed up first.>><p>This is true. We all have the potention to screw up, some worse than others. I applaud those of you who are stong enogh to see disasterous errors before you make them. Unfortunately, not all of us do, and ever worse, it's those who do refrain that get hurt the most by those of us who screw up first.<p>Towardthefuture wrote:<p><<It's VERY common that when one spouse's needs aren't being met, the other spouse's needs aren't being met, as well... This is because NEITHER SPOUSE has effective relationship skills for that particular relationship...>><p>This, to me, makes a lot of sense. Some realize needs aren't being met, some don't. However, it is so true that if one spouse's needs aren't then neither spouse's needs are. Yet, we all handle it differently - the WS spouse just manages to handle it in a more destructive manner (a lot of times without realizing it until they are in over their head).<p><<Perhaps all you needed to have an affair was time or opportunity, and there's no way to tell for sure what you would have done.>><p>This could and could not be true. I think it varies from person to person. My husband had plenty of time and opportunity to have an affair - not to mention that since I was having one I was meeting fewer and fewer of his needs all around so he had every reason (or so you would think); yet he was ever so faithful. He was given opportunities, but didn't take them. He was strong, aware, and wise enough not to subject himself or our marriage to that. Me, I was the one who failed our love.<p>Passmeby wrote:<p><<So no I don't believe every one is a possible cheater. I MOST CERTAINLY AM NOT! AND I AM VERY PROUD OF THAT FACT!>><p>As stated above, I agree with this. I reference this to simply say - you shoudl be proud of yourself.<p>Worthatry wrote:<p><<To the betrayers, anybody is "vulnerable" and it's only a shortcoming in protecting their "weaknesses" while in a vulnerable state - etc. ...
To the betrayed, becomimg a betrayer is a selfish, wrongful, hurtful, vicious, "conscious decision" regardless of the rationalized justifications the betrayer can manufacture.>><p>You are right! It is selfish, wrongful, hurtful, and at one point or another a "conscious decision". I am a WS, and I agree with this. As for vicious, I don't totally agree. In some cases, maybe yes, but I don't believe it was meant as vicious in mine or some others as well. As for the conscious decision, it is one. Unfortunately, at the time a WS realizes this, it takes more strength to stop then to continue, and many are too afraid to take the hard road. <p>Hangingin wrote:<p><<plain and simple: NO there is never any excusable reason to cheat. There are ALWAYS other options.>><p>ABSOLUTELY! There are no excusable reasons! I believe that many WS try to use excuses as a way of lightening the load they need to bear in their roll. However, others, simply express their reasoning at the time to the BS so that they can better understand the thought process at the time. It's not always meant as an excuse. As a matter of fact, I have told my husband on many occassion that this is NOT an excuse, and I am in no way trying to justify my actions because they are not justifiable but simply wrong, but this is how I felt. It may not be a good answer to your question, or even a right answer, but it's how we thought at the time and it's better than "it just happened" or "I don't know". Sure, it doesn't help much more, but it is how we thought, wrong as it was, and acknowledging it is half the battle and will help us to avoid that sort of thinking in the future.<p>KAM wrote:<p><<He, OTOH, was very, very sure he could never stray...and so he didn't set boundaries in a friendship, and the next thing you know, he's "inlove".>><p>This makes total sense, and I have expressed this in a different way to my husband. It takes time for us to own our roll, find the words to express what's inside and to anyalize it productively for ourselves to realize that WE did not protect ourselves against being human. WE did not say I can make mistakes and I need to be cautious of what lies ahead. WE did not, per se, educate our souls. Now, we have to disect our uneducated souls, analyze what went wrong, and share it with our BS in a way that will help heal and rebuild. It's not easy, but it is possible. Give us time and we will find our strength to rise above this.<p>I hope this helps and makes sense. Peace to all of you, and best wishes for success in your lives.