Warning - Long
General Update – since incident at Max & Erma’s when I spoke in disrespectful tone that I figured she would would want to wait at the bar (which was packed with no apparent seats) and then she walked out & did not return home for 3 hours; then left my change of undies outside bedroom door. After a night in the GR I returned to our room, but I remained somewhat distant – after two days I believe she figured out that I was equally upset and who can say, but maybe, just maybe, she might have reasoned that I had reason to be upset. She showed nonverbal signs of some remorse. We made up with the physical intimacy & she has been nice to me & me to her.
We have had physical Intimacy approximately 6 times in the last five days ( I know every morning & I believe we got an evening thing in once, maybe twice?) – I am not sure this is enough for her actually, in that she seems to prefer at least twice a day, but she has not complained! but I do know I have yet to get a kiss! I am not complaining; just trying to offer the facts.<p>Today the forecast calls for temperatures in the 60’s – so she drags out one of her tank tops with string straps. This particular one has a matching sweater. This is not to say that as soon as she gets to work the sweater goes ?? No matter, I am working hard on just chilling out – I said nothing!! I have an appointment at noon closer to our place, so I am working at home this AM – After she left, I realized that she gave no signs of a good by, not a word, not a waive, not a honk, not a hug of course. She just climbs into car and leaves. This is 40 minutes after we had been humping like two rabbits. I am not feeling hurt – this is somewhat typical, if I don’t take the initiative to say goodbye, it normally does not happen.<p>My counselor tells me that she is apparently just not willing to make any changes. She asks me if I am willing to accept her for how she is right now. I hesitated and she held me to a yes or no answer. I tried to explain that if I had some specific signs of my W’s feelings towards me, some little assurance of her commitment, these anxieties about her seemingly constant intent (at least to me) of staying in this dance of “look at me, aren’t I beautiful & boy meets girl mode, with her dress and all”), as much as I try, I can’t get this little voice out of my mind (figuratively speaking) that says, it is still not right. She stopped me and said just answer the question. I said no – but I am basically a chicken – just can’t kick her out when I have no evidence of lying or cheating.<p>There has been an opportunity for us to discuss this issues further through a situation with my W’s boss’s daughter. Her 21 years old daughter is like the family, apparently very devoted Christians. The daughter is very pretty and a knock out body and she dressed to highlight that. I honestly do not know, but I have a strong inclination that she is very nieeve about the signals she sends out to the guys. She is engaged to be married this summer, but is having anxieties & doubts. <p>Last week she (boss’s daughter) and a girl friend are at a bar & three guys buy her a drink. My W is telling me that this created anxiety and that the daughter has always looked up to & admired my W & my W’s boss said that that my W was the only adult her daughter really talks to & asked that my W talk with her. This peaks my interest & the more questions I ask the more my W withdrawals and says she should not have said anything. I see this as an opportunity to try & learn how my W really feels about some of these issues of dress and signals sent.<p>My W tells me that when we separated her boss told her daughter why. My W also said that the D worries that she may be like my W – I asked, does she mean the need for attention (or I am wondering the urge for variety) – I do not get an answer to that one.<p>The next morning I compose a two page summary of my thoughts on this dress thing & I focus on the media & clothing industries with their focus on sexual appeal – “Sex Sells” idea & that God does not care how we look on the outside & that the way we dress can send very specific signals to the opposite sex, signals that connotate a need to meet. That no matter the person’s feelings they should understand that a certain look is sending a certain message, no matter your actual intent – with this message, you need to be prepared for certain reactions – that sins of the flush present temptations and if you are not prepared these temptation may sneak up you without you even realizing it – I also printed a copy of an article, “sexual temptations in a marriage.” I had true concerns that the Daughter may not have realized these issues ?? I left this on my desk & my W read – I assured her I was not sending to boss or daughter. <p>Now Saturday another co-worker who is younger, (married with two kids) but dresses very conservatively, comes over to take my W out for day of shopping for cloths. I asked if she wants to spice her look up more. Again, not much open conversation, except that my W said she(co-worker) did get a V neck top. My W said that the girls at work know that I don’t approve of how she dresses, but quickly adds they all think it is fine. I do not extend conversation. My W mentioned a couple times that the girls do not approve of how their boss dresses, which is on youthful, sexy style, except that she is overweight and there are too many bulges. Again a subtle theme that if my W looks good in tight, sexy stuff, she has an obligation to go that way ??!! <p>Again, I am not argumentative & when my W gets defensive I back off!<p>Yesterday, another co-worker is over & when she leaves my W follows her outside & they talk outside for another 20 minutes. This peaks my curiosity a little. And I ask my W how this gal is doing – my W says they were talking about their boss’s daughter’s situation – I ask what does she think & what is the “situation?” --- my W says it is of no concern to me (in friendly tone), that is was just girl talk and that was more intense, with conation of mine & that she did not want to talk about & if I pursued it she would be upset – I of course drop it. In that conversation, my W did manage to say that this coworker also did not approve of how the boss (mother) dressed, but again because of the bulges.<p>I fully agree that the issues with her boss’s daughter are not my business. My point of wanting to discuss these things is to try & get some understanding and agreement from my DW, that a particular way of dressing sends certain messages (regardless of the intent), but my W does not want to talk about it, without it becoming a battle. I have this funny feeling that they may be thinking that if the daughter is going to get married that perhaps she needs to re-evaluate her manner of dress ??? This would of cousre no be something my W would want to share with me, because it would go against her message to me about her manner of dress – Just fashion, no sexual connotations or messages! <p>I am committed to not having a battle – still just chilling!<p>My counselor talks in terms of me being the pursuer in our relationship & my W is the distanc'er – the more I pursue, the more she distances. (like 180 degrees) I mentioned that my W pursued the young dudes – she said & “they distanced” (which is the picture I got). I have not called my W during the day, but one time in last two weeks. This is how she likes it of course & I do see that she is more congenial at night. She has said that when we don’t talk during the day, she is more in the mood to chat with me at night. I have small concern with this posturing however. This is how she had me doing before her A’s – she had said same things, she likes it better & she feels better about me when I don’t call –For example, She seldom volunteered what she did on her days off. I had no idea what she did on Wednesdays & Friday’s for example – I eventually learned that many of those days were spent with her building her pottery & antiques collections (over a couple years) – We are in similar mode – she does not ask about my day & I don’t ask her. Now here is the catch 22 – when she had a date or was looking for one, she would call me. I can remember one time in particular, just before D/Day when I had an evening appointment & my W called three times in afternoon & just before appointment – chit chat & of yes, asked if I still had appointment. She has not been calling me – good sign, huh?! <p>One last point in my novel here. My counselor, who you will remember we saw a couple times as couples C, gave me a name of another C to be used as Couples – this was last Tuesday – W put on refrigerator – she has not called – I don’t feel compelled to call because then I become the “control person” –don’t you think she needs to take initiative – another step to show that she is willing & interested ?? :– I am betting it could be a long wait. I don’t think she has much motivation – she is having it all her way – no phone calls, no discussions of issues .. I am the dutiful Hubby.<p>I’ll continue to focus on me. <p>Thanks for any input you feel up to!!
HH

Hmmm... Well focusing on working on you--you are doing your best and that's the best you can do. Hang in there, HH. I don't know what to tell you except it sounds like your W will burn out on the sexy dress if you are patient enough to wait it out. She can't work at the mall around these young kids forever, right!?

BINthere,
Thanks for checking in! Hope all is well for you!<p>Sequel to intial Novel:<p>Am I Too Controlling, Argumentative -- ?<p>I don’t honestly know, is my attitude or my thirst to know some of my W’s conversations with her boss and ladies at work a definite sign of too much control? Her boss is a committed and active Christian and I know for a fact that they talk about our situation and she counsels my W to some extent as to what is the appropriate things to do. I know for example that back when the A’s were going on my W did a lot of complaining about her & my relationship. After D-Day and when my W was back in IND. Her boss and I talked & she shared some of the issues that she had discussed with my W. At the same time my W shared with me things she told her boss, but not an accurate picture. Her boss recommended Dobson’s book BTW. At strong point her boss made to me was that I cannot make her love me.
For example, apparently my W was expressing a lot of dissatisfaction & possibility for divorce actually. For one thing, she painted a false picture of how we “had” to get married in that my W said I got her drunk and that she was a virgin – almost like a date rape thing – this is totally false. This added perspective to her voiced perception of feeling “trapped” Her boss specifically asked if she was having an A, and my W denied that. <p>I know my W discusses to some extent at least, my attitude with her dress & I have a feeling she paints a picture that I am MR. Control. ?? Now why should I care – I don’t know that it matters, but I have a strong sense that my W looks to get a lot of validation for her actions from these women and she is very good at spinning things to justify why she did or does. I am fairly certain for example that my W tells them that I drink too much as another example. Again, I feel she needs to paint a picture that I have faults as well and may not be as easy to live with as it appears. I believe most people see me for whom I am, a friendly, warm, easy going person. My W told me that everyone told (during the A’s when she was complaining about me & suggesting D) her that she should definitely stay with me, cause I was such a nice guy. As I believe I have mentioned before I have asked, but get no answers or defensive reactions when I have attempted to discuss her intentions then & how is it different now. <p>I GET CURIOUS AS TO WHAT THEY DISCUSS SO THAT I MAY GET A BETTER PICTURE AS TO WHERE MY W IS COMING FROM AND WHAT ISSUES OR AGENDA IS SHE PROMOTING. She has said before that I am too intrusive with the idea of trying to get to know her better – she has said that she prefers to remain a mystery to some degree.<p>My W told me to not tell her boss about her Balemia, because again her boss directly asked her about this & my W told her, No, she does not vomit. I have not told. Her boss invited my W to a support group she is leading for eating disorders which has direct focus on scriptural believes – my W declined invite, although she had the book out the other day.<p>This recent topic of her boss’s daughter is an example of why is it important for my W to be so quiet about it, when I ask. Last night we played nine holes of golf and stopped at a local watering hole for a bite to eat. We were relaxed and getting along fine and so I decided to tackle some of my questions, in a non-threatening way. My W did not want to discuss the daughter thing but did to some extent. I was mostly curious about what was meant that the daughter was fearful of becoming like my W. I asked, does this mean interested in other guys, a need for attention? What? My W said she did not know. She said the daughter made the comments after her boss told her why we separated. I was under definite impression this was a more recent thing & I asked if was not discussed more recently – she deflected – My W asked why I need to know & that she was sorry she brought it up. I said, “I am just interested in learning more about you & your thoughts.” My W said in accusatory tone that she hesitates because I always document conversations. I said, “why is that a problem, I am only interested in trying to understand the truth and get to a policy of openness & honesty?” She made no comment.<p>My W said that the daughter’s fiancée adores & worships her & that is what she needs and likes & my W said with tone of humor, kind of like us. I said, “You mean where I put you on a pedestal” & she said, “No, I don’t want to be on a pedestal.” I said, “Is she afraid that like you, all this admiration from her husband will not be enough, that she needs attention from others as well. My W got real serious and her eyes welled upped slightly and she said, “I am doing better with that.” <p>A slight digression – we had a good time golfing – as we were changing our shoes and I was sitting on bottom of trunk space; new car for me and I comment that I like the low cut trunk, easy to sit and change shoes & she retorts back, not in nasty tone, but firmly, but “you get dirty.” I said, I guess I did not expect you to agree with me. She said, “I have a right to my own opinion” & I said, “yes you do, but I would think you could agree with something’s I say, once in a while.” & I smile & we drop it. We’re discussed this concept of “Opposition Defiant.” BTW, her dad is definitely that way as is her 15 year old nephew who has been basically raised by her parents. And I had sent them an article on this and we discussed it over Easter & they were appreciative that I sent the article, as it gave strategies to work with teens with this condition. Her dad said the symptoms outlined were a perfect match. Her dad said he recognized he could be like that & we all chuckled that the whole family is this way. Ha, Ha! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Opposition Deviant theme continued – we have our drinks (she has water, BTW) and she states how hungry she is & I tell her that they usually have bread sticks & I can ask & she replies, “No, we don’t need the bread.” The waitress walks buy & I order another beer. She says, “I though you were going to ask for bread sticks?!” I said, you assXX, but smiled. I said, “you do this to me all the time, when I suggest something, you always object, then come back with your input.” I reminded her of a time not long ago when I called her from the grocery & asked her if she wanted me to pick up some frozen pizza’s and she goes into tyrant where we have plenty to eat, don’t need them, then says, but if you want, it would be fine.” I said you always have to break me down & my ideas, then introduce your idea. I said my comment about my trunk was very casual and just small talk, how difficult could it be to just go along with me once in a while? I said, “you seem to be very “Opposition Deviant?” She said, No, I am not! Then laughed, recognizing her response was perhaps just that. I chuckled as well. The waitress brought the bread sticks with my beer & my W munched them done in quick order.<p>Now, sense I was on this journey to better understand where my W is coming from I brought up a conversation we had with our friends on Sunday. I was not in the least upset, just wanted to make a point. I was telling our friends that that afternoon I was watching the cooking channel & was intrigued with the guy and I discussed a couple things he was demonstrating. I also mentioned this brochure I was reading from our church about the church’s official position on social issues. The guy offered a compliment that he was impressed with my extra-curricular interest. My W pipes up in a kidding, but definite tone of “don’t be too impressed” by saying “Yes, but all this was in a prone position!”, which was not true, actually, but why argue the point.<p>I perhaps set this up in the wrong way, but it expressed my feelings when I casually asked her, “Do you get jealous when someone gives me a compliment?” She said, “of course not.” I then replayed the above conversation. She becomes somewhat enraged and in loud, firm tone, said, “Oh My God, I can’t believe you are upset about that!” I said, “you don’t have to get mad, I’m not mad, I’m just curious, maybe you don’t even realize what you say?” She said she was just being funny, everyone lies down on Sunday afternoons. She said, I can’t say anything!” She said I am too serious, that we can’t have the “bantering” other couples have. I said, “It just seemed to me that you wanted to detract from the compliment; like you could not let it stand. She said that is not true. I said, “Oh, maybe I misunderstood your intent; did you think that your comment added to the compliment?” She started to cry (in desperate, upset way) & told me that I was very difficult & she came back with a common line for her in these kinds of discussions, “And we were having a good time this evening!” I emphasized that I was not actually upset, that she never really supported me and I have become somewhat accustomed to that & I was not crushed or anything like that. She objected to use of term “never,” which I can give her, in that is not fair. She asked for the keys and went out to the car while I got the check.<p>Was I being cruel here? I feel certain she’ll be reporting back to her boss and co-workers how overly sensitive I am & how she can never satisfy me. Which is OK. I don’t care all that much – if we don’t get along, is it important her coworker’s blame me? In the long I am not interested in identifying who is to blame here – I am just looking for some peace.<p>Peace to all!
HH

HH,<p>Well, you asked for input, so I'll give it!<p>The following quotes are related to the point I want to make about your post.<p>"I was not in the least upset, just wanted to make a point."<p>"She said I am too serious, that we can't have the 'bantering' other couples have."<p>
In the situations that you've described it does sound like you're being controlling and argumentative. She may be doing it as well, but one of you has to stop in order for both of you to move forward.<p>My point: You always seem to have a point! (oops, I used the word always [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) Saying you weren't upset does not balance the fact that you were trying to teach your W something.<p>If I were your W, I would feel besieged.<p>Even if these discussions you've mentioned were not the sum total of all the things you talk about with your W, there are way too many points here. She must be wondering during every conversation if you're going to work a point into it somewhere. <p>I understand her comment about you recording your conversations as well. You remembered the "car trunk" and the "compliment" episodes and used them later as an example of something she does "all the time". Those things were miniscule and should have been left behind. <p>Even if this only happens (recycling history) some of the time, you can be sure that your W is remembering this as the type of thing YOU DO "all the time".<p>Another point: The "points" you made all seem to be about "negative" aspects of your W or her behavior. This is not good Plan A stuff.<p>How many days can you go without making *ANY* points? That's right, I said days, not hours, not discussions. I think your W has heard all of your points by now, try something else.<p>You need to make a real attempt at "banter". Pass by all those golden opportunities to make your point. If you must, steer away from subjects that cause you to roll your eyes. <p>I think all of us are susceptible to this "teaching" syndrome. I think it tends to send the message "I'm better than you, so follow my advice." Only, it's not really advise, but more of an order -- that's why we keep at it, and at it... trying to get them to obey.<p>Jeffers

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jeffers:
<strong>HH,<p>Well, you asked for input, so I'll give it!<p>In the situations that you've described it does sound like you're being controlling and argumentative. She may be doing it as well, but one of you has to stop in order for both of you to move forward.<p>My point: You always seem to have a point! (oops, I used the word always [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) Saying you weren't upset does not balance the fact that you were trying to teach your W something.<p>If I were your W, I would feel besieged.<p>...<p>I understand her comment about you recording your conversations as well. You remembered the "car trunk" and the "compliment" episodes and used them later as an example of something she does "all the time". Those things were miniscule and should have been left behind. <p>Even if this only happens (recycling history) some of the time, you can be sure that your W is remembering this as the type of thing YOU DO "all the time".<p>How many days can you go without making *ANY* points? That's right, I said days, not hours, not discussions. I think your W has heard all of your points by now, try something else.<p>You need to make a real attempt at "banter".
Jeffers</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Jeffers,
Thanks for your input. I do appreciate some objectivity here and I am not offended with your frank points & I understand that I need some points back my way, because I have not achieved a perfect apporach to this, that is for sure!
It is interesting that I get such diverse insights from the same topic. I posted on emotional needs and here are some things from there:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
I'm gonna try not to be too harsh, if it comes across that way, it is only cause I think WS are absolutely ABSURD sometimes and please feel my anger going towards her, not you.
I think a BIG part of recovery is
1) accountability
2) doing something different than what you have tried before
3) setting appropriate boundaries.<p>It doesn't sound like you are doing any of the above 3.<p>To me it sounds like you are so concerned about saving your marriage that you will do whatever it takes. And here we have a marriage on her terms without your needs or concerns being met or addressed. <p>Problem #1 - she did not return for 3 hours.
Problem #2 - issues were never resolved but instead sex was use to bridge the gap. VERY unhealthy way to resolve conflict.
...
Problem #3 - she has no regard for your feelings. Does she know that you desire an official goodbye and just choses not to give you one out of disregard?????<p>Its good that you and counselor recognise the problem of you pursuing and her distancing but to not pursue you are also giving her the same thing you gave her before - freedom to have an affair.<p>If she is so unwilling to make any changes or meet your needs at what point are you willing to say "enough" I don't want this marriage this way anymore and if I have no say, I want out and walk away?????<p>Your looking for specifice signs of W's feelings toward you. How long do you keep yearning and longing and looking before you realize - she's not gonna give you any???<p>... The point is EVEN if she is NOT having an affair - she has in the passed and she is unwilling to show remorse or work on the present/future. What more do you need to go on?<p>Why are you not argumentative & just back off! What are you afraid of? You can speak the truth using "I feel" statements and not LB and still not agree with her behaviours. My opinion is your afraid you will push her away and she will leave so you are just appeasing her and giving her the marriage her way in order not to lose her. Having the marriage her way, leads to affairs. The marriage needs to be on your terms too. Where is your voice????<p>Why are you committed to not having a battle – still just chilling!<p>Its just all about her and what she wants. What about you?!!!<p>What does she do on her days off????? in a normal healthy, recovering marriage...couples tell not out of obligation but just plain normalcy.<p>It seems you may have gone from too controlling to too passive. There has got to be balance.<hr></blockquote><p>I don't want to try & defend or justify my actions, but I had not raised any of these things or come close to making any points as you aptly point out since our blow up a few days before Easter.
The trunk thing happened 30 minuites prior, so that did not require a great recollection skill & the compliment thing happened the day before. And of course her saying no to bread sticks, then busting my choops for not asking for them was within mintutes of conversation.<p>Frankly, most people that know of my story feel like I am definately treatly like a doormat & need to speak up more. Perhaps I was feeling sorry for myself & I need to buck it up & go with the flow, I guess that is what you are saying?<p>You say I need to banter, I am not sure your intent there, but to me that means, not going with the flow. A friendly exchange - honestly, I was not being beligerent. When I said I was making a point, I was attempting to say to you all that I was trying to express my feelings or thoughts.<p>I believe your point (OK, sorry the word has become annoying, I understand & will try to refraim) would mirror her opinion. That is, that we don't have unpleasnt conversation as long as I don't voice my opinion or contradict anything she says or does. As long as I go along with everything she wants, says or does -- no problemo -- it is when I try to get my agenda in there, that we have a problem.<p>Now, maybe I am being unreasonable & very self centered in my attempt at recovery, but perhaps I should review;
She carried on with first guy in our home, just four days after first meeting him (he was there to cut down & trim trees & they had this exchange, a spark if you will & she was "overwhelmed" -- fell to temptation I believe was her exact words, with his compliments of how beautiful she was & the potential excitement of hooking up, ect -- evidently, quite direct!) & within a few minutes of talking to me when I had called home to say I was on my way, about 20 minutes away. After this guy did not call, she pursued him with numerous calls, even while away at her cousins, 300 miles away @11 & 11;30 at night.
Second guy merely came to home and said he knew what his friend and her had done or do. That seemed to be enough for an invitaion in.
On one occassion she was with one in AM & the other in PM, again in our home and at this time her & I were active twice a day.<p>On another occasion she had a date with the first guy and he stood her up, so she calls the second guy & his W was gone (as thery were seperated at the time), so she drives 20 miles to be with him his home.<p>To date, she takes no responsibility & says she was a victim, that they were preditors and she even says it is my fault she become so interested in sex because we watched an x rated videa I had had for about 10 years & we watched "Real Sex" on HBO. Evidently she felt I forced these things on her -- I don't recall vedio thing - I don't think I had seen for years, but it is possible, I won't deny it -- but we did get into habit of watching the HBO thing -- you may not find believeable, but I can assure you we do not watch anything in our bedroom that she does not want to watch -- if there is something I want to watch, that is why we have two TV's!
She has rejected all ideas for marriage enrichment from Counselor, MB & Pastor -- so yes, perhpas after a year and half of this I should be more patient -- soorrree!<p>At any regards, Thanks for your interest!<p>Peace,
HH<p>[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]<p>[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]<p>[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</p>

Anxiety.
Now, maybe I am being unreasonable to think about asking my W to help me &/or perhaps I am being very self-centered in my attempt at recovery here, but as many of you have advised, it seems I am at a point where I have to get off my duff and do something. The concept of my S-anon group is that I need to focus on me & many of you have reinforced this & it is only logical that I cannot change another person, just me. My question is, why can’t her & I have a civil conversation about the issues. I am a definite conflict avoider, so it is easy for me to go with the flow, but somehow I don’t think that is working ;rolleyes: and I actually feel I may am enabling her in her little game of sorts, to continue or even flourish. Because she really reinforces the idea of working on me & forgetting about issues with her. In fact when I have tried to address some of these issues with her, she has emphasized that I need to get back to counseling to focus on me I definitely need help in organizing my strategy if I am to go into battle. Because to discuss the issues, if the future is at all like the past, it will in fact mean a battle. <p>Part of my problem with this dress thing is that when she began this transformation into what she might describe as her “self-actualization” and it appears to be her answer to her MLC, she was open with me about a few of her thoughts. As some have advised, this will pass, but I see no signs of any change any time soon & frankly I don’t know how I can survive another summer, knowing she is running off to the pool in her bikini & walking the dog in her short shorts and skin tight, string strap tank tops. Remember these are her times alone & I am not to be included in these recreational events! Her current journey began in January of 2000. She was very clear that she enjoyed the change to the Victory Secret, breast enhancing, bras, that it was a very liberating experience & that she had for years tried to wear things that de-emphasized her breast. That her breast were something she was now proud of and it felt good to not be ashamed of her womanhood. Now, how can any reasonable guy deny his woman such freedoms?! Then came the low rise pants. She emphasized that the low rise, hipsters put a much better focus on a rounder behind and of course it highlights the hour-glass figure – which there is no denying, she has. With the heels and all she can definitely put on the Barbie doll look & believe me, it turns the guy’s head! I can understand how many tell me that I am being too controlling to ask her to modify her dress – I can understand that in a sense, it could be like going back to another time & like I am asking her to wrap her breast tightly to her body & not show anything except her eyes – mid-evil times kind of thing. And, without my prompting, she made it known not long ago that she was not going to change her way of dress, just because I don’t like it. So I think as many recognize, she has clearly drawn a line in the sand on this one! <p>I guess this may answer a question. She is not real receptive to the idea of me asking her to help me with my recovery – I have never put it quite that way. I believe I need to make a presentation to her to be sure we understand & can agree on some of the dynamics here.<p>As many have said, the dress thing is only the symptom and intellectually I understand this! – However, please understand that it is easy for me to identify (for myself) an outward sign that I believe is at the center of her inner thought process; which of course I have no way of knowing for sure. Thus, here is the impasse. The dress thing does in a sense become a real circular kind of argument. Honestly, if we were in any meaningful structured recovery process I believe a lot of my anxieties about her dress could be minimized!<p>Here is what I see as one of the primary issue that I struggle with.. I have come to realize that my W “walls off” any real discussion of my issues with regards to my recovery or our marital relationship. IMHO, her general concept or idea is that this has happened to others (let’s be frank, I am not the first person to be cheated on! I may be over reacting, here?), and now some time has elapsed and I need to get over it! She gives off the general attitude that enough time has elapsed that things should be as usual – <p>It just occurred to me that although I am sensitive in many ways. In a different way, my W is extremely sensitive to any form of criticism, like anytime I entertain any discussion about the A’s or of course the dress thing, she goes into a rage of sorts and if I pursue she gets extremely upset & has even gotten physical by swinging her fists at me, or as in last episodes I’ve described, walks away or leaves. She does not want to be reminded that she did anything wrong, which I can understand in a way, but I don’t know how we are ever going to work through this without discussing it. ???<p>She actually brings up the dress thing more than I, like her making comments that the gals she works with think her way of dress is just fine for example. The other day I tried to explain that it was just not how she dresses but the history, what happened, that makes a difference, that it is unfair to isolate just the manner of dress without factoring in the surrounding circumstances. She retorts back & I drop it, thinking that I don’t want to “burn her,” really, that I want to spare her the humility of reminding her of the details and of course with that I would expect a battle. On the other hand, to me at least, with her attitude and all, it is like she is continually throwing it back up into my face. Honestly, given her history and stated need for attention & no apparent desire to help me in recovery, I believe most would at least be a little concerned, don’t you think?<p>I am wondering, she causes me anxiety & she pretty much knows it, why should I not cause a little anxiety back?!<p>For example, she has commented several times that her boss’s husband likes her to dress in provocative manner & even suggests she show more than she wants to at times. It is like she dresses to please him, and my W has suggested that it is confusing, what a guy wants in their woman kind of thing. I retort back that they have a different relationship, (Like they have joint prayers every day, go to a lot of church functions together and I seriously doubt that if he were in my shoes, he would be so liberal) – I said something to the effect the she was not having sex with other guys and my W responded back, to not be so sure about that! What do you think, should I be real specific to remind my W that she had A’s with basically two strangers & that it started out with the general Boy meets Girl flirtatious thing, and she has accepted no responsibility and no ideas for marriage enrichment & that it is apparent to me that she is into this kind of flirtatious exchange still – honestly, what guy that values a monogamous relationship, with this kind of history & actions would encourage his W to dress in provocative way & ask for no accountability ??!!! <p>Am I totally wacked out here? <p>Do you think I need to be strong in reminding her that she is not married to her boss’s husband? Is she really confused about my preferences of dress? I understand that the dress thing is a symptom and not the cause or the problem as such – she could be seductive in anything she wears, but it sticks out & that is a constant reminder to me – I guess that is the issue with me, it’s a reminder, a reminder of the flirtatious exchange, that I think the look invites. Make sense? <p>She always wants to apply standards as if nothing happened. Now the timing was bad for this I know, in that we had the following discussion just after our most recent little squabble at the restaurant. I was trying to show her that I was not holding a grudge and I did not want to get into the “we’re not talking mode,” and so this was something that came up. We have a new couch that got torn & the repair guy is to come out & repair. In case it is not obvious, I am still sensitive to guys coming to the house with my W home alone. I meet the guy when he came out to access the damage & based on his looks, he is on the weird, scary side. Well, they called back & the guy is coming out to do the work. This is on a day my W normally works. I tell her the guy is coming and that I can stay home and work. Her reply, “If I’m working that is fine, but if I’m not working, I’ll be here for him!” I said, “Whatever.” Again, am I wacked out here?! – I know that she is pushing for me to show some trust here – Is this reasonable? Does she expect that because some time has elapsed that a bell goes off & regardless of her actions and attitudes I am supposed to be over this? Perhaps I am paranoid here? Is it not logical, that even if we say she was an innocent victim in the A’s and how they got started, would it not make sense to show some caution and not run the risk that the next home repair guy is not also one of these predators? <p>The husband of a gal my W works with is at our home now putting up wall paper & this is her day off. As she prefers, I have asked no questions as to her plans and I do not plan to call home. I do not feel threatened with this guy, but aren’t I showing some trust here? It is when it is a stranger, don’t you think it is prudent to not leave a W home alone, even without her history. I can’t help but be influenced by the history, but are there any general guidelines we can follow here?<p>Please be candid. Given what I have described about my W’s sexual appetite, her history and her way of dress, wouldn’t most guys in my situation have some concerns here – I do want to be fair. Again, if you look at our conversation history, she does in fact get quite volatile or upset when I try to engage in conversations to work through this stuff -- [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] Suggestions welcome!<p>Thanks for your patience!<p>HH

PS – Thanks for all your patience, because I know everyone has to be tired of my continual whining of sorts.
Just so you know, I think in this process of putting my thoughts on paper, I believe I have made another discovery – An Hah, hah, if you will. I am not a counselor, but from what I have read & feedback I have received from others, I believe my W suffers from some Narcissistic disorders and that may explain why I am never able to finish any meaningful discussion with her about these things. That is, w/o intense battles.<p>I remember reading some time ago that until that is in check, everything else is useless! I remember at the time I thought that would be something her counselor would recognize and work on, but of course I have no idea, but I don’t think so. I have this sense that he only has a feel for what she wants him to know about & she is very good at spinning things her the way & how she wants the message to come across – I believe that is why she gets nervous about me documenting our conversations! Less likely that she can change her story later to meet changing needs.<p>Is it realistic for me to write her counselor with some things from my perspective -- I know, too controlling – She could really get upset that I am interfering with her relationship with her counselor – like I really care, just a thought. I can see I could do some harm with that … I would copy her of course, after I mailed it – I know, too manipulative!! I can’t help but think he does not have the whole picture here –OK, I’ll give it up!<p>I think we can safely assume she will not take the initiative to call for a new counselor. Do I press on issues to make a big battle to force the issue that we need Counseling or should I just set up appointment & give her invitation to join us? I could entertain conversation – I have feeling this opposition deviant thing would crop up – ??<p>Any thoughts?<p>Do I leave well enough alone until we get to another, new counselor?
Thanks,
I feel better at least.
HH

HH --
Let go.<p>You cannot control or change her. What goes on in her personal counseling sessions are NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. <p>Deal with you. What are you willing to accept? Make decisions for yourself based on the information you have.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lexxxy:
<strong>HH --
Let go.<p>You cannot control or change her. What goes on in her personal counseling sessions are NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. <p></strong><hr></blockquote>
Lexxy,
Thanks!
I was definately obsessing and actually realized it before I finished, but decided to go ahead and post.
I know the counseling has to be a safe place w/o outside interference, thanks for reminder! I was being selfish!
I apprecite your input. I have more dialogue on "emotional needs" board if you care to check it out.
Hope all is well with you!
HH
I think I might someday provide the right stimulas or give her suficient motivation to want to change at least -- perhaps not though -- intellectually I release I should not count on that in the future as a reason to stay.

HH,
Ireally can't add anything more to the advice that you have been given. You really are in a tough position... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hang in there and continue to do what you can for yourself. You CANNOT change her, if and when she wants help she will seek it.<p>I will continue to pray that you will find the right path for your life. Ladysing [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]