Well, I have been warned repeatedly on this forum to be ready for setbacks in my so-called "recovery". <p>Last week I told about the On-line Recorder, which I also reported had uncovered IM between OM and my wife dated 3/20. In that exchange, started by him by the way, it was clear that they hadn't been communicating latley. However my wife told him 2X during chat that she missed him and when he suggestively invited her to "come with me" to a "private chat room", she replied "that sounds good". Anyway, I never confronted her with that knowledge, but I'm sure she figured I had read their exchange when she and my daughters discovered the On-line recorder.<p>Then, this weekend I discovered that OM had called my house last Wednesday, 4/3 while I was at work. My wife had erased the call from our 2 phones' Caller ID, but I have a hidden Caller ID on the PC. Again I didn't confront my wife about this, until Saturday when we had a relationship discussion. She maintained that she was doing everything she could to show me she loves me. <p>As discussion escalated, I asked her point blank if she had talked to OM last week. She denied, denied, denied. So I told her that I knew he had called house and she admitted that he called, but said she didn't talk to him. I asked her why she deleted it from Caller ID if she didn't talk to him and she said she didn't want me to even know that he tried to call her. <p>So I told her again that all she has to do is tell him never to call again ( a no-contact letter or discussion). She said I had nothing to worry about, but she wouldn't commit to doing that!<p>Anyway, purpose for my "HELP". My wife was unavailable all morning from 8:00 am until 12 noon. We now have cell phones and she promised to keep hers on at all times, but it was turned off all morning. Also, I got the answering machine when I called home (I had a legit reason to try to contact her, really).<p>Part of our recovery discussions is that I have to trust her and she has to be accountable. So when she finally called me at 12:00 today, before I could even say anything, she went into this big explanation about where she was that made no sense. Then she said not to even think that it had anything to do with OM because it didn't. Very defensive, very "in your face". Then, upon second telling, she tripped herself up with the facts. Very unconvincing. I know she was lying. I don't know why.<p>I can't believe this!!! Just when I thought things were beginning to turn around, now I feel like I can't trust her again and I have to worry every second. She said this morning that I "have to trust her" and when I said I still didn't she asked how will I ever trust her? This is the kind of talk she used to use to try to rationalize her A.<p>I'm here posting so I don't take all this out on her tonight. Advice??<p>This so sucks!

Boppo: Sorry for your pain and rocks in the road. Ok, sure you have a legit reason to question her sincerity about the day, even without the chat on the computer and "attempted" call. She has to acknowledge that you will question (in your mind or out load) and you have every right to do so (actually she gave you that right). <p>I'm glad to see you are posting to try to defuse your feelings before talking to her. That is a good thing. Maybe you guys need to have a general discussion about how things are going, what you both want here, etc.<p>As for the "very defensive" explaination, try not to over analyze how/what she says. This could be true or not, but I share with you my experience as a WW - that when I have forgotten my cel, it was off and I didn't realize it, it wasn't charged, (whatever) and my H was trying to reach me I would become what seemed to be rather defensive. I was so afraid of what he'd think, and so bummed that I may have caused him to think bad things even though there was nothing to think about that I felt guilty for doing nothing wrong. I wanted to cover every detail, account for every last second, etc., and in turn sounded defensive, unbelievable, like I was "trying" to convince him, etc., that it made it very hard to take what I was saying for the truth. Like I said, it may not be the case here, but I could be, or may be in the future. Just something to keep in mind. Right now she has this coupled with a couple of other current events that are pushing you away from believing. Talk to her about this and how you feel, but remember to be calm and ask her thoughts and feelings. <p>Remember, there will be good days, there will be bad days, there will be some more bad days, but there will be good days. I wish you well, and I hope this helps some.

Trust your gut ... not her words.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

You don't have to trust her. In fact, you have EVERY reason not to trust her. She has proven herself to be a untrustworthy person. Period. Boppo, you need to be tough during these times. You have to set boundaries and expectations. If she violates those boundaries and expectations, you have to follow through with consequences.<p>You are dealing with a person that is behaving as a selfish child. You can't always reason with a child, you cannot trust that they will always be honest with you and do the right thing. You must verify.<p>The expectations I would set:<p>No contact letter
If any contact is made by him, she is to notify you and allow you to see of such contact (like the caller ID call).
Change phone numbers (if he continues contact attempts)
Change personal email addresses (if he continues contact attempts)
Detailed billing on cell phone that includes the incoming call phone number
Fully accountable for all time and location<p>If I were you, I would not wavier on any of this. If she is unwilling, then you will know where her priorities are. The No Contact Letter is a must. Period.<p>If she is unwilling to take such steps, I recommend you seek seperation/plan b. She has proven that she is not being honest. You have to act to protect yourself and your marriage since she is currently unwilling to do so herself.<p>Tell her in an assertive manner, not with weakness or anger.

Boppo,
Why should you have to trust her? Trust is earned, and she hasn't earned it. When she has behaved trustworthily & with accountability over months (and I very literally mean MONTHSSSSSS) of time, that is earning your trust.<p>She's definitely IMed in the last month, may have talked to him, definitely erased the evidence of his call, wasn't honest with you even when asked...and she thinks, you think you HAVE to trust her? What is that?<p>Accountability is action, and something that is measurable. She may be trying, and that's good. Her accountability will lead to your trust...but they aren't even swaps. I think you are actually allowing her the opportunity to earn your trust, and time for your trust to come back. Maybe that is semantics, but it is very different from what you posted <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>that I have to trust her and she has to be accountable <hr></blockquote><p>You'll make mistakes, she'll make mistakes...somebody doesn't have their cell or the battery is dead or it's in the car or briefcase, you ran into the post office without it. It happens.<p>Effort over a period of time gets it all in balance.<p>In our final, successful recovery, we started each day fresh. Some days just went crappy, triggers, contact, "not right". If you start with love & forgiveness in the morning, it helps.<p>The answer to "how will you ever trust her" is maybe you won't, but you love her, you are committed to her and you want the marriage to work and will make all the efforts needed on your part to do so [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] .

A bit more, if she asks what it will take for you to trust her, you can simply tell her that you will start to trust her again when she is willing to live up to your expecations. That puts the ball in her court.

I hear what all of you are saying, but I don't think this applies (yet).<p>Sure, if WS had committed to the relationship, was remorseful and wanted to make every effort to repair the marriage, then Boppo can be tough. Lay down the law.<p>However, Boppo's WS does not appear to me to be any of those things. I think there are some positive things and overall her affair will die out and she may become a remorseful WS. But Boppo, I think you see signs and agree that the affair is flairing up again.<p>In the face of that, I'm not sure how effective the BS demands will be. You could very well deliver an ultimatum and she will call your bluff.
You demand No Contact, and she says she won't comply -- what then? Are you at the point of Plan B? <p>I guess I am of the opinion that you are not in recovery -- just back to Plan A.

I think I agree with Lexxy on this. Are you sure you are even IN Recovery at this stage? Has she committed to trying to Recover the Marriage?<p>If she has, then, yes, you have the right to "expect" certain behviors, although there will be setbacks.<p>If you ARE working together in Recovery (her wanting it, too), then I recommend that she read some things which would help. SAA would be a good start. Is she willing to do that?<p>Finally, she needs to realize that trust is EARNED. SHe gave away her "right" to be trusted. She must earn it back.<p>Again, reiterating Lexxy's words, if she is not fully committed to recovery, then you are still in Plan A. By yourself. <p>Sending my prayers,

I read Boppo's post as his wife is demanding trust. She's putting down the ultimatim on something he can't reasonably do, so if I were him, I'd explain why he can't, how he could...<p>I don't see that as an ultimatim on his part. The discussion that she would be accountable & he would trust, like a swap it sounded to me, is off-kilter and unworkable.<p>Demands aren't part of Plan A or of recovery, creating balance is.<p>Of course if the OM contact continues, it doesn't make a lot of difference what Boppo does, but not lovebusting should always be part of the course.

Divorced here, but if you want my take on things I'll gladly share. <p>Lemme know if you need another opinion, I will be on later tonight.<p>Elizabeth

Plan A is for life... The changes you make in yourself are irrefutable and forever...<p>Boppo you have a choice... to show that you are serious... that you love your wife and that you have made changes in the ways that you are dealing with her.<p>Have you read Pepperband's post?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Looking back ... I can see I worked myself through a very awkward "plan A" .... although I never heard of plan A until years into recovery and I started poking around this site. Looking back ... I can see my efforts to become differentiated ... although I did not read Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage " until years into recovery.
Plan A is very much complementary to Schnarch's ideas of differentiation. Developing a positive identity within the context of a marriage struggling to overcome infidelity. Developing a strong sense of self-worth that is valid both within and outside the boundaries of the marriage.<p>I can NOW see plan A as a path to greater self worth and NOT necessarily as a plan to "win back" the heart and mind of the infidel ... although that might happen. It is a plan to differentiate myself and identify myself as a worthy person apart from the circumstances of the marriage relationship. Plan A'ers are not like doormats to wipe your feet upon and to mis-use .... more like a *welcome home* sign... if both persons choose to re-inter the marriage! Plan A says : "I can hold onto my better self under the worst of circumstances".<p>Schnarch says: "We develop a contingent identity based on a 'self-in-relationship'. Because our identity depends on the relationship, we may demand that our partner doesn't change so that our identity won't either." <p>Then ... comes the grenade of infidelity tossed into the marriage and the entire fusion of identities is blown apart! The aftermath of the grenade then boils down to this question ....<p>WHO THE HELL AM I ... AND ... WHO THE HELL ARE YOU?<p>And, asking this question to the *fogged-in* infidel is pointless. They got INTO the affair because they were lost to themselves, and went searching for a new self .... and, INSTEAD of differentiating themselves ... they fused identity to yet another relationship ... actually moving away from a healthy differentiated view of their self-worth ----> I am wonderful because my affair partner thinks so.<p>Plan A says and demonstrates to OURSELVES: I am not some weak pathetic person deserving to be abandoned or cheated. I am demonstrating decent and loving behaviour. I am worthy of love and devotion. ... If the infidel notices .... double bonus points. If not, I become better differentiated along the way ... and I can see my strengths despite terrible and hurtful circumstances. <p>Once I become more fully differentiated and have stable and accurate self-worth (after the grenade) ... I am then in the position to identify
healthy choices. I can honestly say that I will be a sensational woman within this marriage... or after this marriage terminates.<p>I think I finally understand what I went through. I understand that I am the better woman for it. I understand my spouse is the better man for it.<p>That is a powerful message to myself. The anxiety that floods the betrayed spouse is the perceived loss of identity . Self worth and a differentiated identity is the harvest of plan A .<p>I think I get it now.<p>Best to all of you travelers on this journey!<p><hr></blockquote><p>I can feel the difference in your posts... you are at a turning point... I'm not reading or hearing the panic... you are thinking before you do...<p>Your decision is what to do?<p>When you can say what you have to say w/out needing the support of your wife... without her needing to do or say something to soothe you... a change will occur... then she has a choice...<p>Cali

Thanks for all of your comments. The one thing I realize is that I cannot trust my wife right now. I have fallen into the trap of underplaying her actions and rationalizing them because I want this marriage to work. Thus, I overlook activities (such as deleting items from my daughter's caller ID) that require active, pre-meditated, dishonest, sneaky behavior by my wife.
As long as she is doing this, she cannot be committed to recovery. (Of course, I acknowledge that my checking up is also sneaky but, I believe, justified)<p>On the other hand, I am not ready for Plan B yet, so I really can't give any ultimatums (since I have nothing to back them up). <p>I have now set June 1st as my "watershed". If I do not have a firm commitment from my wife to actively work a plan of recovery, including some kind of outside help (whether it be following a book, counseling, or marriage seminar) then I believe I will reluctantly begin Plan B.<p>Sometimes I think that I can "settle" for the unfulfilling one-sided marriage that I am currently in, juct because it is so much better than the alternative. But then I remember the pain of December and January and realize that unless my wife changes as radically as I am committed to changing, this WILL HAPPEN AGAIN and the pain will return.<p>Last nite she said that maybe she is just a terrible person and she will never be what I want.
That maybe she is not capable of giving me the kind of love I say I need. <p>I told her that I believe she is a caring, kind, compassionate person that has built up so many walls, and has erected so many defense mechanisms, AGAINST ME, that it is very hard for her real self to be revealed to me. I said that that may be why her A was so intense, because there were no walls, no defenses, just open vulnerability to another person. She said that she has had so many conversations with me in her head where she is open and vulnerable, but she is afraid to have them with me for real because she fears my reaction.<p>I told her that I am a different person now, and I pray she would open herself to me, take a risk, and let me into her "secret garden" (we are both Springsteen fans so she knows what that means).<p>She held me and said she would try harder, and we went to sleep. I started today with a clean slate of love and forgiveness- hoping that today will be an improvement over yesterday.<p>One final note- Friday is my wife's birthday. I'm sure OM knows this. It will be interesting and revealing to see if he tries to make contact with her.

Boppo,<p>You should not trust someone who is untrustworthy and she is certainly that. If I were you, I would not have removed the online recorder. You have a responsibility to protect yourself since she is not doing it. She doesn't have the right to the privacy to destroy you. And of course it upsets her, she is still sneaking around! So you were right in your suspicions that led you to put it on there. People who have nothing to hide don't hide!<p>Anyway, I agree with the others here that you should trust your gut instinct and proceed with great caution. And don't feel guilty about not trusting an untrustworthy person. Only an insane person trusts the untrustworthy. Protect yourself, Boppo.

Boppo,
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Last nite she said that maybe she is just a terrible person and she will never be what I want.
That maybe she is not capable of giving me the kind of love I say I need. <p> <hr></blockquote><p>This is totally WS speak. It isn't necessarily an indication of current A, but it tends to come from guilt, indecision, and the WS idea that their emotions won't change. <p>Emotions do change. My H must have said versions of that statement to me dozens and dozens of times, along with "Lor, you'll never get over it." When I wanted so desperately for nothing more than to be over it.<p>The difference in my H pre-re-commitment & post re-commitment was amazing. Making the commitment made him less guilty, decisive and more loving. I think he thought making that decision would be dreary, but it made him so much more stronger to have clear purpose when he had drifted for so long.<p>So, just because your WS said it, doesn't make it the truth.

Lor... "AMEN!"<p>I actually talked w/ my H yesterday a.m. about how hard the past two months have been... every da** weekend is another 'anniversary' of some sort... <p>As he slowly 'recommits' (and I do mean slooowwwwlllly), the change in him is phenomenal!<p>Boppo, as you become stronger and more able to say what YOU need w/out panic and anxiety... your wife will notice. When you start to understand why you and she are 'fused' and how to face those facts, you will NEED her less... (that's not a bad thing)... it will enable you to just want to be there for her... and to make HEALTHY choices for you...<p>You are doing GREAT, btw.<p>Cali

This type of scenario has been playing from time to time in my house. I am the WS, D-day was in October of last year. I think the worst was on a Friday afternoon he was trying to call me and I had left my cellphone in my purse. I was on the other side of the office and we were holding a very noisy mock auction. So even if he called and had me paged, I wouldn't hear it. I was MIA for about 2 hours and he wigged out. I had tons of messages on my vm at work and on my cell phone. I told him he could have come to my work, the security is low here, I could have even brought him into the building. He said he doesn't want to have to follow me around. I told him if it will help his fears, I wish he would do it. Because I have no intention of being where I am not supposed to. He was very angry with me because I was supposed to have my cell phone on me, just like your wife. I jumped up from my desk because someone came by and told me the auction was starting, I don't typically carry my cell phone (paranoid about misplacing it) around the building so I forgot it at my desk, not thinking about how wrapped up I would get in what was going on, and how long it would take. I had also told my H about this auction just a couple of hours before, and that we would be doing that the last part of our day, so I assumed he knew what I was doing.<p>Once things calmed down, I felt awful that my actions caused him to feel this insecure and anxious about my whereabouts. He said he wants to work on how out of control he allows himself to get over things, which has ALWAYS been an issue for him. Since the discovery of the A, he tries not to do it so much, since he is now beginning to see what a LB it is.

Hey Boppo: Hope things are going well today. Yes, I too agree with a lot said here. Finding has matched my point from yesterday exactly. However, I do agree that you don't have to trust her, and that she has given you every reason not to. Quite honestly, I believe she needs to realize and accept this fact before you can even begin to start to trust certain things. That's just my thought. I accepted this as part of the consequence of my A pretty much from d-day on. My husband has told me a few times that he trusts me. I would just smile and say "no you don't". He would then look at me not knowing what to say. I would break the silence quite short with something like "I know you want to. You really want to, but deep down you just can't, and that's ok."<p>Anyhow, it sounds like the evening and morning went pretty good. I wish you both the best of luck in rebuilding. As for her upcoming birthday - try not to center your thoughts on whether or not OM will call or whatever, try to make it a special day with you and her. Maybe plan a night out, dinner, movie, something she likes to do, let yourself go on this one. Take the opportunity to say I love you and I want US. Good luck, and I hope you have a great day.

Tutter, I went back and read your post. I didn't read thru the responses before I posted. You brought up some other points that were very good. It's funny, I feel the exact same way you do... The defensive thing - I was like "well, if you didn't think I was up at work, why didn't you just drive up there and bust me?" <p>It is a fine line you walk when you are trying to reconcile from something like this... There are constant reminders every where you look, subtle little things sometimes... and it's something you don't to just sweep under the rug. But how much do you discuss before you LB? It seems my H is on pattern of needing to tell me how disgusting he thinks what I did was (toning it down, it's an ugly scene) about once a month or so. Funny thing is it seems to fall right at the same time as my PMS, when I am most likely to be grumpy and cause a trigger.<p>I agree with the other posters, she doesn't yet deserve your trust, but I would say all is not lost. Keep working on your M and do like Tutter said, let go and have a good time with your W on her B-day.