I was reading Meara's post and I just lost it. So much of what I see here on MB is not what I would call Plan A but actually acute martyrdom at the hands of WS.<p>I'm all for forgiveness and rebuilding...but why do some of you tolerate the ongoing affair? Someone here, I don't remember who and I'm not trying to be ugly in any way, has a WS who has asked for time to 'prepare' the OW for the cruel world and the BS has agreed out of love and hope. Others have WS's who will not end the affair and break off contact. And I'm sure there are many more examples of the WS's abusing the good natures and hearts of the BS. Even tho I was the WS, it just makes me sick. I would expect nothing less than a boot in the butt out the door if I had tried to continue seeing the OM.<p>So, I ask--in the light of Plan A and Marriage (Re)Building--how much is too much??<p>Nothing personal toward anyone--I care about so many of you--it just kills me to see your heartache.<p>________________________________________________
Please accept my apologies for any hurt feelings this post has caused. I let my emotions get away from me and although my intentions were good, the action itself went far astray.<p>Thank all of you for your insight...and I really do think each and every one of you made a valid point and gave me something to think about. Again, thank you.<p>[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: diddallas ]</p>

I know exactly what you are saying but it not so clear cut. The principles promoted at this site state that you are never to make a selfish demand. Demanding it end upon learning of it is such a love buster. Principles promoted in other books/sites suggest you do no plan A and instead go to immediate plan b/tough love. Everyone's situation is different so we cannot expect any plan to work for everyone.<p>There is definately a point at which a BS should set boundaries and expectations. For some, doing so at D-Day is the best course. For others, their WS is so deep in the fog that doing so would mean the destruction of their marriage, where as if they began a plan A and gave the affair some time to die, their marriage would have been saved otherwise.<p>The problem with all of this is that you cannot reason with an irrational spouse who is deep in the fog. I would recommend that no one attempt plan b/tough love unless there is some sign that their spouse has come out of the fog to some extent and/or you simply cannot do any sort of plan a any longer (or at all).<p>It is a natural tendacy for a BS to assume the position of a doormat upon learning of the A. We naturally want to do anything to keep our marriage together and in the state of such utter shock, we often will allow our spouses to take advantage of us. I know I did. It takes time for many BS to climb out of that hole and to regain the confidence they need to make the right decisions. Some do it quicker than others.<p>[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Mr. Bunky ]</p>

I think I'm sane.. my psychologist says so.. but Im going to a psychiatrist friday for a second opinion. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Once is enough for me, If I find out about anymore contact between husband and other woman or learn about any new woman, he is gone! I have a low threshold for betrayal!

I'm not insane either. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I don't think. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I agree - somewhat - and I understand your frustration. There is too much "giving" by the BS sometimes. That's why we usually encourage BS's to set boundaries - not be a "doormat" - etc. There's a great thread that gets bumped up sometimes called "The Misapplication of Plan A" about all that stuff. There usually has to be a Plan B at some point, but a good Plan A has to be in place first, and many BS's are scared to death to switch to Plan B. THey feel that they are giving up, or afraid the WS will take that oppurtunity to run, run farrrrr awayyyyyyyyy.<p>Here's another recent thread you might like to read along those lines.<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=016875<p>Basically, affairs don't last. Plan A is about working on self, creating an environment the WS would choose again to be in, while waiting for the A to end. Serial cheaters have to be treated much tougher, or they'll keep doing it. <p>I personally believe in a combination of Plan A and Dobson's Tough Love theories. NOT being a doormat. NOT letting yourself be taken advantage of or abused over and over.<p>my 2 cents [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Am I insane?<p>Yes, without a doubt.<p>completely; altogether, outright, wholly, totally, in toto, quite; all out; over head and ears; effectually, for good and all, nicely, fully, through thick and thin, head and shoulders; neck and heel, neck and crop; in all respects, in every respect; at all points, out and out, to all intents and purposes; toto coelo; utterly; clean, clean as a whistle; to the full, to the utmost, to the backbone; hollow, stark; heart and soul, root and branch, down to the ground.<p>from beginning to end, from end to end, from one end to the other, from Dan to Beersheba, from head to foot, from top to toe, from top to bottom, de fond en comble; a fond, a capite ad calcem, ab ovo usque ad mala, fore and aft; every, whit, every inch; cap-a-pie, to the end of the chapter; up to the brim, up to the ears, up to the eyes; as crazy as crazy can be.<p>on all accounts; sous tous les rapports; with a vengeance, with a witness.<p>But I am happy to say that since my divorce is final I am now beginning to regain my sanity just a little bit.<p>Disclaimer: I do not advocate divorce, my situation was very unusual and every effort was made to save the marriage.<p>Elizabeth

I've been nuttier than a fruitcake [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] , but I am sane. I also have a recovered marriage with a long rocky road to get here. I think I did kick his butt a couple times on new discoveries, but that wasn't helpful because I still loved him and hoped for my marriage.<p>Hopefully we all make the best decisions we can according to our situations, abilities, knowledge, strengths & weaknesses.<p>A boot in the butt might be the right decision, but it might also be the end of any possibility of reconciliation.<p>There aren't a lot of BSs that want to be martyrs or doormats or saints or have lowered expectations, but it is a fine dancing line among them, and that is part of how we help each other here because in the midst of turmoil it is easy to loose track and find the BS with boottracks on their face rather than the WS having one on the backside.<p>I must have been told to go to Plan B dozens of times. I failed at B. So what then? I wasn't ready to give up...when I was ready to give up I did...and got my marriage back...<p>It isn't one size fits all, we're just trying.

I'm another one of those "insane" ones. Just take a look at my profile to see how long I've been in Plan A. But you'll also notice that my situation is a lot different than most other BS's on here. I guess I've been able to sustain myself for so long because my wife has absolutely no future in the direction she is going. Like Lor, I too failed at Plan B.<p>The day may come when I will have to finally do something to gain some closure. But that day is not here yet. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

diddallas,<p>Guilty as charged ~ by reason of insanity!<p>I have asked myself those same questions over and over! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>For me, the W of a serial cheater (a.k.a. love addict), I believed him each time he said it was over. And within months I'd find a new OW.<p>We were in a vicious cycle...<p>... and I knew it! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I just didn't know how to break it. I wanted so badly to believe him... to believe in him.<p>Until now! As of May 1st he'll be in his own apartment ~ at my request. He asked if I'd consider reconciling and I told him I would, but deep down I don't think there's anything to reconcile. I've already started new bank accounts and I feel so free.<p>Each person knows when enough is enough. Then and only then can they break the bonds and have a more peaceful resolve.<p>I know I'm doing the right thing ~ it's just taken me 4 years to get here!<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Free2BMe ]</p>

I totally agree with you diddallas. Some of the stories here are so painful and heartbreaking I can't even bear to read them. As far as selfish demands and love busters - I don't see how "demanding" your spouse end an affair to salvage your marriage is wrong.<p>I was lucky in some ways that the EA had ended before I ever found out about it, But I have told my H that if he ever starts it up again or begins another affair he is going to be gone faster than he can say he's sorry.<p>I know people don't like to lose hope for their marriages but sometimes there is no hope. An unreasonable spouse who continues the affair, files for D and moves out isn't in save this marriage mode. You can Plan A until you turn blue but if they aren't participating you can't hold them at gun point and force them to stay.<p>Just my 2 cents,

"If we all weren't so crazy we'd all go insane." Jimmy Buffett<p>Yea, diddallas, I think some BSs don't know where to draw the line. I wish you had been around my neighborhood two summers ago to give my WS a piece of your mind for me or to help me see I needed to do something different, if I did.<p>Truth is, I stayed in Plan A so long because I sincerely believe my X is sick. There's definitely something wrong upstairs. I won't speculate on the possibilities, but my sig line'll give you some hints. No effort, no counseling, no looking back - the inspiration for my MB name.<p>BUT, maybe I was wrong? Hopefully, someday we'll be able to talk and she'll offer a better explanation than, "I was forced to divorce you because you wouldn't divorce me!!"<p>Until then, I remain worthatry.

Well... <glances at nick> <p>Yes, as a matter of fact I am! But... < glances at signature><p>I'm getting better!<p> [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

BS are just that, and we still consider ourselves spouses. I know that may seem crazy, facing all we have, but for myself I still love him. Plan A helps so much, because it helps me too. I am learning so much about how to be in a relationship that could be healthy. So, if in the end it doesn't work, at least I have gained valuable knowledge and have learned that I can stand for something I believe in. <p>Plan B can be very hard to execute, sometimes no one knows all the dynamics except the people involved. I agree BS can't be doormats, but we can stand for something we believe in, our M and not be a doormat! One thing to remember is some of this is out of our control and we are working on the only person we can, ourselves!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Insane?!?!?! <p>We should be. More like we are in shock and trying very hard to get back on our feet. With either no help from the WS or with the WS and OP pushing us down farther. <p>So we appear a bit wobbly at times. Make some mistakes (ie: stay in plan A too long). But when it all comes out in the wash and we know we have done all we can, then we can honestly look back and say, "hon I tried my best but you just aren't that great a catch anymore....see ya'"<p>Ok, so I am a bit cranky but I do know that dealing with the A can and does push one to the brink of insantity. Nothing in my life has sent me to this level. I truly hope nothing does again. But if it should, the plan A part will definitely be much shorter but then again so is my tolerence level. Why? Because I have already proved I can survive. <p>See that is what those in plan A are still trying to do. SURVIVE. <p>Those of us that have been here a while now can look back and see. We may be impatient for a while then we will learn to be patient and more understanding with the newbies. See we were new once ourselves and we made it. We need to give hope to those who come here and think they don't have any hope left. <p>JMHO,
L.<p>Ps: just wanted to add that when the WS accused me of being a bit wacko, I politely responded that I must be since I learned it from U (WS) and I would try harder to be more like he & OW in that regard. That shut him up. Reverse wacko psycology.....works pretty good in the fog! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

I am never coming here again. I just wanted help!!

Well, diddallas - one day if you are ever a BS (and I hope not) you'll understand the absolute depths that it drives one too.<p>We are all on a journey, and we are all at different locations on the road, driving at different speeds. Some of us get a tad detoured along the way.<p>We all get there eventually. What you are seeing is just a glimpse of someone elses journey on the road.<p>The first mistake that all BS's make is that we decide we will do ANYTHING to get the pain to stop, and we think that if the WS would just change or stop or do something different that our pain will stop.<p>In this phase, theres alot of crying, begging, pleading and appeasement as the BS desperately tries to stop the pain by manipulating the WS.<p>Fortunately, the human mind and the human spirit is a pretty resilient thing. And there's a point where most BSs snap back into reality, and start protecting themselves.<p>It's all about stepping out of victimhood. We learn that selfish demands, including a demand to stop the affair, is an LB - but what takes longer to learn is that demanding that someone else change what they are doing is different than drawing boundaries.<p>ie - I learned that I couldn't make my husband stop hurting me with his affair. I did learn that I could protect myself without LBs by removing myself from the situation in many ways, starting with loving emotional detachment...all the way to the big D.<p>But it was a process. And there is NO way unfortunately to just give someone else the answers. Even if we all have the same answers, we all have to learn them in our own way and in our own time. <p>Otherwise, we could all just buy a book, learn the answers and be done with the whole mess!

maybe the BS's are insane, maybe there not. I do know that the WS are.<p>I find it rather odd that a WS, who is still keeping secrets is able to ask such a question of the betrayed on this board.<p>Now, some poor women is trying to get support, she obviously loves her husband and doesn't know what to do. I hope she stays around. <p>
She just got here, if say a year or two go by and this is still happening, then maybe, just maybe you have a point. Who are we to judge? Last time I checked the position of God was already filled.

Gosh, diddallas, there are better ways to introduce this topic than calling people who are trying to recover their marriages "insane"... <p>I wish you would have chosen another way of saying it... because... those who are vulnerable and searching... they get hurt by the things they read here, like maura.<p>I know you aren't mean or evil... I just think name-calling is counterproductive to what we're ALL trying to accomplish here - namely, REBUILDING OR BUILDING MARRIAGES.<p>I agree, by the way, that it seems as if some people get mired in the doormat-thinking. However, that isn't a true Plan A. This has been discussed often, and it is so misunderstood. <p>Anyway, it's certainly good to be asking questions... I just wish you'd have chosen a different way to say it in your subject title.

After all the pain I have put up with in the last 4+ years with my WS I wonder why I wasted all that precious time trying to save my marriage.<p>I thought it deserved to be saved since it was such a long and good marriage for the most part.

There have been some times when I probably WAS legally insane, but for the most part I'm not!<p>And I will say this, I wouldn't wish the pain, heartbreak, desolation, abject horror, etc. that I have felt on even my worst enemy, whoever that is.<p>New beginning said it very well, but PlainJane made a good point. Diddallas, if you really believe this, tell your husband that he is a BS and let him make the choice about what to do.<p>Your post is not only nonproductive, it is just plain hurtful. I think you have tough love and human decency confused.