Ashiley:
You said something in your post I'm curious about:
"Be loving, let her know that her behavior is unacceptable, and that you hope that the EA ends asap...but don't be mean and give her an "excuse" to run to the OM."
How can I do this when she doesn't even acknowledge there IS an A going on? It seems like in your case you and your husband talked about it, discussed it. Maybe the first thing I need to work on is to get us to where she CAN talk about it?
Any ideas?

Amazingrace/2Long:
Here's a good question: It appears that both of you at least had communications with WS about the A and the OM/OW.
Since my W cannot acknowledge the A because she's said it's over, perhaps the first step I need to take is to create sufficient trust for her to be able to talk about it with me?
Any ideas? (I have to make up a lot of ground because of the scary way I reacted to finding out about it, so it won't be easy)...ideas?
Then after she's acknowledged it, and perhaps her inability to end it ASAP, we can find a way to work on that together? Think this is a good idea?
Thanks for all the feedback and support.<p>I will tell you (and especially any newbies like myself) the ONE thing that made the road to calming down and the beginning of acceptance (and a chance at recovery) for me was to read that other people's experiences and feelings were the same I was having. That made all the differenc in the world because before that I felt like what was happening to me was so awful, and what I was feeling was so devastating that I'd never survive it.
We've already seen it here on the thread, where Amazingrace says our posts helped her...just by seeing that others have the same feeling/situation

Another question for the board: Many here say things to the effect of "Plan A cannot work while the A is still going on"...is this really the case, or is part of Plan A to reach a point where the A can end and rebuilding can begin?

Wait a minute, spacecase - she's in an EA with a convicted drug felon in the pokey and "someone" is sending her $5000? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Is she trafficking?<p>Her affair may be the least of your problems. I suggest you think about what kind of other trouble you may be getting into here. This convict could be a master manipulator who is just using your wife to continue his "business." Please, please, please consider seeking professional help to hear your story first hand and make a non-emotional judgement regarding potential criminal activity.

No evidence of wrongdoing. The money she received went to an attorney for his services. This I know for sure. She's also had a few hundred dollars of his that she sends to him in bits & pieces as he needs it.
BELIEVE ME, this panicked me and I've been keeping track of that stuff as closely as I can.

Gibby1;
you said: "Specifically, you may need to set boundries for your own self respect, but Plan A is mostly about you and making yourself a person who is more attractive in all facets (phisically and emotionally). When you do this, you feel more confident, more relaxed, and MUCH more capable of handling whatever the future holds. This may seem at first that you are distancing yourself from your W, but for me it meant that I was fixing myself, meeting her EN's when possible, and letting her know (through my actions) that I love her and want to be with her forever, but I will survive and thrive without her also. This ended my 'needy' stage that was suffocating my wife."<p>Help me out with this "setting boundaries" part. Like thing I will or will not do for her/ with her? examples?
Also, should these boundaries be communicated to the WS? How? something like "I am willing to be patient and help, but I will only go this far"?<p>Thanks for the input!

Amazingrace:
You said: "Wow, Spacecase! Your W & my H could be the same person! My WH is saying that he's ended EA, but then next 5 minutes is saying how he cares for her, tells me I don't know 'how hard it is,' etc. I can't trust him any farther than I can see him..... I hired a private investigator just so I wouldn't feel I was being unfair not believing the lies. It did help me get a grip on reality. I cannot believe a thing he says either, sad to say. His EA has involved a couple of kisses, he's confessed. That moves it somewhat into PA territory. But he still insists that he could NEVER IMAGINE sex with OW. He has a little trouble in that area every now and then with me. I can't believe he would set himself up to be embarrassed with OW like that. That is ONLY reason I believe the ONLY an EA thing!
This is sooooo painful. That's my perspective. It's the 'not knowing' how long it will take for it to be over that is just so awful! If I knew it would be over in 3 months, I could do that. But 24 months? If it's like it's been recently, everyday for the next 18 months (already been 6 months!) I just don't think my nerves can take that......"<p>How are you dealing with this? The lies? Has it ended? Have you been able to talk to him honestly about it? How did you get to that point?<p>At this point, my W doesn't even admit to the EA going on, I'm not even sure she knows it IS an EA or what that means, and I certainly don't see any action in terms of ending it...she won't talk about it with me.

Spacecase - <p>The boundaries I refer to are what you need to stay in the M, not go to Plan B, and work hard on a Plan A. For me, my W was having a EA online with someone she met through work. She admitted to thier flirting but never grasped (still hasn't) the pain it caused me. After about 3 mos I could not Plan A any longer. I could not even think about her and our M because the pain did not subside. At that time I set a boundry of my W calling this person and telling them FORCEFULLY that it was a mistake and that she only wants to be friends with him and if he takes thier chats back to previous places, then my W will end thier association. I told my W that I could not stay in our home and was moving out if this was not done. BE CAREFUL here Spacecase, you must present a boundry as a chioce YOU are making - NOT an ultimatum!<p>That is big!!........You have control over one thing in this world, YOU [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ! I told my W I can not ask her to do any thing, but at the same time, I will not allow myself to be disrespected to that level and be genuine about trying hard to fix my M. This is an area where everyone's story might be different. How well do you know yourself? How well do you know your W? Remember, no ultimatums, and if you give a boudary then stick to it.<p>Hope this helps.................<p>Gib

Thanks, Gibby...I do need to find a way to express that without causing an LB, and I think you expressed it very well. I have to be able to tell her that I am trying to save our marriage, will not threaten, but need to keep my dignity while she end the A.
This is very hard....

When things first ended with my MM it was very hard for me to break contact with him. You become very accustomed to talking to this person, and you are addicted to the rush of emotions it causes. I honestly don't know that I would have gotten over it as quickly without counseling and I take an antidepressant. I am telling you that, so that you know what was involved in me getting to this point. I now don't have any desire to see my exMM, my D-day occured right before the holidays last year, and being around family made me see where I want to be. I don't know what to tell you, what magic words will make your wife snap out of it. I wish I could...

Spacecase~
Sorry I didn't get back to your question till now. Very busy time in my family. Daughter #2 has been hospitalized with complications during pregnancy with 1st baby and today neonatologist says baby needs to be born NOW, so she is being induced tomorrow (Tuesday 4/16). Baby is a girl weighing approx. 3 lbs at 32 weeks development. Appreciate everyone's prayers tomorrow.<p>Back to subject: The details of WH's EA have come out VERY slowly. Little discoveries here, things that didn't add up there....lies found out, dishonesty discovered. The REAL way I was able to get husband to be more honest with me was by hiding a tiny tape recorder in his truck and hearing his side of two cell phone conversations with OW. Maybe you read my posts about this elsewhere. If not, this is scenario: Night before I was going to store, but traffic was heavy so I missed my turn on expressway. I was near WH's work, so thought I'd turn around in store parking lot. WH was supposed to get off work soon. (I think at 8 PM.) Thought I might see him coming out to truck and would touch base with him about night's plans. As I get close to parking lot, I see OW's car and WH & OW are inside! As they see my car, WH jumps out and heads toward truck parked close by. I'm so mad I drive around building so I don't say something I'm sorry for. (Don't ask me why.) I pull back around and WH is about to pull out in truck. OW has already gone back into store. I am NOT HAPPY. He says he just got off 'a few minutes early and went to dinner with OW. This makes me have a terrible feeling in pit of stomach. I had always thought he worked the entire time he was scheduled, now I don't know how many times this has happened.....<p>Next morning I was still very upset. (GREAT UNDERSTATEMENT!) I had had it with the lies and assurances that all was innocent. They were definitely NOT working any more I had already decided that OW was very involved with my H, even though he swore that his involvement was not that serious. Said he viewed her as a 'sister.' Right. I already had bought this tape recorder at Sam's Club and had already planned how I'd hook it with velcro behind truck seat, just waiting for right time. This morning I'm describing was first time I used it. <p>After VERY emotional scene he finally said he would end it with OW, but I had to 'give him time.' It was not something he could do quickly. WH admitted OW was very attached to him and it would be hard to end it. AND I had to promise not to try to find them by driving around (I was very successful in this area, but only found them sitting in her car). I also had to promise not to call OW (something I also had done 4 times). Said he was SICK of my spying on him. I said okay you have 30 days. That was March 19. Then before he left I put in the recorder. It was his day off but he was going somewhere. When I got the recorder out later that day and listened I heard him telling OW about our agreement and LAUGHING saying he didn't know, but they'd have to find something to do after the 30 days. Hearing him laughing about what he'd promised me was the last straw. I knew it was much more serious than I'd even thought AND I knew he was lying to me every word he said. He was meeting her in the second conversation, but when he came back assured me he hadn't been with her. I asked him point blank over the next two days several times if he'd seen her that day. He told me each time that he didn't know what else to tell me. He had NOT. After a couple of weeks I confronted him with the recordings and told him now I didn't believe anything he told me about it. And how bad it hurt to hear him laugh about what he'd promised. Very bad scenes, but over time he said he knew it was wrong and would end it. Kept saying how he never wanted to leave me for her.<p>At the time I was just learning about Plan A, but our whole marriage I've sort of done those things. He's alcoholic and has not been easy to live with. I've had to work on myself so I didn't get lost in all the crap. Despite all factors, we've been pretty good together. Since realizing about this EA, I've LB lots of times and would not suggest in any form for anyone to follow my example. But for me the taping was the turning point--I HAD to hear those things to seriously begin to believe how bad the EA was. Deep down I really wanted to believe all the excuses he gave and explainations about why she called him on cell phone every morning, etc.<p>How do you know the A is not ended and your WW is not being truthful? Revealing it to her might be serious LB, only you know how she might react to that info. For us, I think it helped WH by allowing him to open up to me, even a tiny bit. He said he was 'protecting' me and trying 'not to hurt me.' But I was very hurting and not being protected at all and we have been able to talk about EA somewhat calmly (?) at times when his fog lifts momentarily.<p>The other facet for me that brought truth to light was hiring the private investigator. He didn't really get anything concrete for me to prove it had gone sexual, which I'll admit I really believed. But the more I read about EAs I guess I can see that sex is not ALWAYS the end. But my WH's EA might still end that way, who knows. The last time PI followed them they went from work to a park. It was pouring down rain, so it wasn't to enjoy the nice weather! PI saw them snuggling, cuddling (?), he really wasn't sure. The rain caused the windows to be messed up so he couldn't see. But it was all I needed to see the EA had gone to more than talking.... <p>I couldn't sit on this info for long. He assured me he hadn't gone out to lunch with her that day, then said just for a few minutes, his story kept changing till I finally told him about the investigator and what he'd seen. It was very BIG LB. WH said it was time for divorce, etc. I said fine, that was all I ever wanted to know.... where he stood with me. If he wanted to leave me for her, fine. I'll be fine. Lots more said. Finally, he admitted there MIGHT have been a couple of kisses, no more. He calmed down before leaving. Came back saying he had ended it with her. He said he didn't think she took him seriously. That was 6 days ago. She's still calling him. He doesn't seem to be meeting her outside of work, but who knows? WH was with me all weekend and has come home for lunch everyday from work.<p>This is something that is different for each person, as someone else just said. For me confronting my WH with EVIDENCE of his lying, dishonest behavior seems to have turned the tide. He cannot say it is not true. I have his voice and an eyewitness to prove it. He is being somewhat open with me, but of course I cannot verify he tells me everything.<p>Today began a very good turn of events. I'm going to post it in a new thread if you want to see what happened. Aren't you a tiny bit curious? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>This weekend I bought the book "Surviving An Affair." Mostly what's on the MB site, but very good reading.<p>Good luck spacecase! I enjoy sharing my R info. Surely going thru this horrible time can at least be of good by helping someone else thru their's! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>amazingrace

Thanks, AG;
Well, here's my story as it relates to discovery/confrontation.
I discovered the A because of a "feeling" I got that something was not right (my W seeming to hide things when I walked into the room, talking on her cell when she was outside tanning, stuff that just seemed odd), so I listened to her v-mail and found a message about someone sending her $5000. I asked about it and she said it was money for an attorney for a friend of hers that was in toruble, it was nothing. Every alarm bell in the world went off for me, and I began to search her stuff.
Sure enough, letters, cards, photos, etc. appeared and painted a clearer picture. She was having an A, and it was serious; they were talking about their "plans", love, adore, miss you,, the whole thing. So I confronted her with this in a very harsh (MAJOR BLUE-MEANIE LB) way, threatened to throw her out if she didn't end it, the whole nastiest-of-the-nasty stuff. She finally admitted it, said it had started innocently, had gotten emotional, but that she'd stopped that and now it was only that she wanted to help her friend in trouble. I didn't believe it, so I said, well, if that's the way it is, why not tell me about it? why keep it secret? she said it was because of my reactions to things, that she'd not told me because she knew how I would react....she was probably right on that point.
In any case, this farce went on for a bit, and I kept finding evidence that things were not what she'd said they were, whcih made me even madder, etc.
To make a long story short, I recorded calls, intercepted messages, etc. with the desire that at some point she'd finally cave in and admit it, face it, and decide how to deal with it. But no, she reacted in all the ways described by Dr Harley about lying spouses...funny how she did it all almost straight out of the book. The righteous indignation at my recording her calls when all she wanted was to skirt the real issue; the content of the call that disproved her assurances and exposed the lies, etc. etc.
Her reactions to my discoveries became absolutely scary; she'd totally lose control, say things I'd never heard coming from her, and only made a difficult situation impossible; at that point we could not talk at all, much less rationally about what was happening, nothing!
About this time I started discovering Dr Harley, Michelle Weiner-Davis, and all the other books and sites, and decided that since my initial strategy was not working, I'd try something new.
So I backed off, stopped recording, and started my version of Plan A. Not a very professional one at first, major setbacks when I could not control my emotions, but slowly improving until where we are today.
We'd both gone to marriage counseling, but she dropped out pretty quickly when it was impossible for me to let her lie to the counselor and I knew and had evidence she'd lied. The sessions became re-enactments of the previous disasters. So we decided to go to separate counselors, which I thought was better than nothing, hoping she'd start coming around with my MBing, Plan A, etc.
So here we are, about 3 months later, and we've not had any major LBs in some time.
She's gotten better at showing her love, and I've gotten better at meeting her needs, we're both making progress on that front, and we both recognize it.
Of course, we haven't yet dealt with the A in a meaningful way. I know it's still going on, I don't talk about it or pressure her, and I hope we'll soon be at a place where she feels safer and we can begin to address that. I'm hoping she's recognized she has to end it, and is working on that (probably wishful thinking).
But we have created a better environment, we're both pretty loving and we're both doing better.
I finally found a counselor that subscribes to MB principles (actually a disciple of Machelle Weiner-Davis, which is pretty close) and went to see her. She asked me to bring my W in for a session if she'd agree, and to my surprise, she did! So we'll be going in next Saturday for that and we'll hopefully start seeing where she's at now.
I'm hoping we will have moved a little closer to being able to address ending the A, and beginning the recovery. At least I know I have made it clear that I am determined to save our M, that I understand what happened, that I can forgive, and that I will be there for her. (At least I hope she sees that I've stuck around and basically backed off when she knows I don't believe she's ended it, and that should mean something!) and I hope my MBing has made some new love-bank deposits, and hopefully my determination has shown that the changes are real and are from the heart, and that I'm her guy...that's where I'm at right now, and that's why I've been asking about how to communicate that I'm here, I'm determined, but that I can't wait forever for the A to end, hopefully w/o another major LB....
Any suggestions as to how to go about communicating this, or how to help her understand the A has to end, and that we have to enter a recovery process....?
Thanks to all!

How rude of me AG, I forgot to express my prayers for your daughter!
Space.

For those of you who have been following and contributing ideas in my thread, you know that I am at a turning point in my Plan A where a few things need to start happening. I have culled all the feedback and some of my own, and have written it down to help me see it all together in preparation for a frank conversation with my WW. Here it is in "letter" form, and I'd appreciate your feedback on it....I don't want to commit another LB, but I need to find a way to start addressing some issues that are impeding the road to recovery....here it is and thanks in advance for the feedback!<p>To my dear wife:
I know that your relationship is not over and we need to talk about it...I’ve been patient, and I'll continue to be patient, but that won't last forever. You need to understand that I don't know when my patience will end; I have been patient because I love you, and I want our marriage to work, I understand how hard this is for you, and that it takes time. But I’m afraid that if it takes too much time, it may be too late for us.<p>You need to work really, really hard on quitting ALL contact with the other man, and all the other aspects of your secret second life, and I really need for you to talk with me about it...I know that this is very hard for you, that there’s an emotional attachment that can’t be broken easily. I understand emotional affairs quite well now, and I know they are just as destructive as physical affairs, but I am here to help. <p>I cannot ask you to do anything, will not force you to do anything, but at the same time, I cannot allow myself to be disrespected to this level and be genuine and honest about trying hard to fix our marriage. A few months ago I was doing what I was doing out of fear, but now I know that I will be fine whether we make it or not, so I want us to make it because I love you and want you, not because I fear losing you.<p>Trust must begin to be re-established between us, and the basic rule for that is that both of us have to think about what we say and do, and if we wouldn’t do it or say it with the other one standing right next to us, it’s probably disrespectful and not a good thing.<p>We need to get to a point where we are both working together for our marriage, where we agree on certain goals and steps we will be working to reach together; and where we both support each other in that pursuit.
I have found many sources of support and information which have helped me, and I’ll be happy to share those with you because I think they’ll help you as well. In fact, there are women who have been/are in your same position who would be happy to communicate with you and help you through this, and I’ll be happy to connect you to them.

SC:<p>I've got a lot of reading up to do! Still moving. Movers didn't show up yesterday for the furniture, so we're doing a lot of work ourselves. I'll get back to you when I can.

I think it is a damn good letter!<p>good luck my brother.

Thanks 2Long, I was wondering when I'd hear back from you.
Hope your move goes well!!!<p>Conan; Thanks for your support as well. I know you're going thru a difficult time, and I hope we can help you here, as I've been helped.

SC:<p>That IS a good letter. Very good, in fact. I'm planning on SAYING something like this in our MC session today. Things have been going very well with my W for about 2 weeks now, and in our MC session last week we actually started focusing on our M problems, mostly communication related. I'm planning, based on talking to my IC last week, to say "I want to NOT talk about OM at all for a while to give us time and focus to work on our R without the distraction. I have made my feelings about OM and what I need my WW to do about him clear to both of you, and will only point out that I do not plan to put up with the disrepect forever, but want to just focus on our M problems for the time being." That way, I make it clear what I need to see happen for me to stay in our M, and that I want my W to work as hard on identifying our problems as I feel that I've been doing. <p>Good luck to you, SC. Sounds like a good letter, and also sounds like you're ready to go to plan B if she doesn't respond with some effort on her own. I hope she wakes up!

Thanks for the response 2Long, I like the way you phrased it; clear, solid.
1 question; what is it you intend to accomplish during this interim period of working on the R & M without addressing the end of the A?
I have found that I was able to make many changes, make love deposits, create a safer envirnment, but some things just cannot be done without the A first ending...addressing sex issues, for example, or money/future issues, it's almost impossible to do that without first knowing she is as committed as you are to the M, isn't it?

SC:<p>"1 question; what is it you intend to accomplish during this interim period of working on the R & M without addressing the end of the A?"<p>Simply the opportunity to communicate about the M issues without the distraction. As you know, each time you find out about contact, it's a new D-day for you, and each time you argue about it, it sets your progress back to square one. In my case, the setbacks have far outweighed the progress. The progress has been non-existent, effectively, because my W really believes she's ended the A and that they can be friends and continue contact without telling me about it, even if it's personal stuff. She'd like me to "take a day at a time" and just see how our R improves. This works, to a point. I need to hit the core issues of miscommunication HARD and need to avoid arguments about OM, so that's why I'm willing to do this for a time. I've been frustrated that NONE of the C's appear to have told her that she needs to break off contact permanently. I'm not sure yet whether it's because they realize that my W would just get angry and end C'ing, like she gets angry with me about it, but I think this is the most likely explanation (because they seem to share many of the MB concepts, even if they don't use the terminology).<p>"I have found that I was able to make many changes, make love deposits, create a safer envirnment, but some things just cannot be done without the A first ending..."<p>I've been able to make personal changes, but the M hasn't changed fundamentally, except in the past couple of weeks, and even then it's not to the depth that I think it needs to be just yet.<p>"addressing sex issues, for example,"<p>We're okay here. Sex has been great. Sex with OM happened very few times, even though EA lasted 11 years (and in my opinion is just dormant now, at best).<p>"or money/future issues,"<p>I have no evidence W has spent or committed any money to OM, YET. She did tell me she had talked about having him listed as beneficiary to some property she owns out of state, which she intends to use for her research (he's in same field). I said that's ridiculous, and will be certain that doesn't happen if we stay M'd. (The property isn't worth a lot, though)<p>"it's almost impossible to do that without first knowing she is as committed as you are to the M, isn't it?"<p>Absolutely. I'm having a very hard time with this. I just hope that it will be clear that is the case, and that I won't tolerate it for long. We'll see. Again, the alternative, right now, would be for me to be demanding and risk blowing our M and our family apart before I think I've done an effective Plan A. I'm definitely not ready to do that. So I'm stuck... (but I will stay as strong as I can while in the muck!).