Hi ashirley; thanks for being around!
Unfortunately prison visitation records are only released with inmate permission, so no go there.
If I can determine through finding out about her travel arrangements that's about all I can do.

Well, I took an entirely different approach with my WW today, and at least initially, I got a positive response.<p>As you all know, we've been going back and forth; me pushing for a move to Recovery, she insisting the A is over, and we just need to move on.<p>So I basically said to her; look, clearly we have both made many mistakes over the years, we've both hurt each other in many different ways, and we're at a not-so-good place in our R and our M.
The question is, can we both just take the attitude that we can accept the things that have happened, take a forgiving attitude based on our knowledge that neither of us did any of these things with the conscious desire to hurt the other, and are we willing to accept that we have to make some major changes to the way we interact, talk, decide, etc. so we can create, in essence, a "new and improved" R, since clearly where we are now is simply not going to work.<p>I think we need to be ready just to try to drop the resentments, all that "C..." we've been going around giving each other, find the way to forgive the past, and move on to finding a way to have a good, fulfilling R and M for the future.<p>She agreed. Then I asked her, what do you think we need to do then? She said, well, I'm not sure, I know we have made some progress in some areas, but I really don't know.<p>So I came back and said; well, do you agree that we basically have to re-learn many things about a R, how to communicate, how to negotiate, how to respect each other, how to make decisions based on agreement, how to share our personal things with each other, etc.? And again, she agreed.<p>So I asked her again, what do you think we need to do to get there, to accomplish that?
She said; I don't really know, what do you think?<p>And I said: Well, I have an idea. Clearly this is going to be a long process, clearly we will make mistakes along the way, and there will be times when we again fight and get on each others' nerves, and times when we won't agree on things, but there are people out there who know about these things, have experience in guiding couples like us down the path to creating a whole new R, a whole new way of seeing each other, treating each other, thinking about each other, etc.
Do you think we could both go in with the attitude that we need to "re-learn" all of these things and give it a try?<p>And she said; "Yes; I think we need to do that."
And I said; "OK, I think I have some people I know about that can help us."<p>So, (and sorry for the long narrative...) there it is. At least the opening and agreement for us to seek help from those who know about these things.<p>While I clearly stayed away from the subject of the A and the OM, at least I feel it's a big step forward because it opens the door to joint MC with one of the Harley practitioners I got a referral to here in my area, and maybe some phone counseling with the Harleys themselves, and take the attitude that I'm here to learn as well, and we're both going to have to make changes to the way we think, act, plan, negotiate, listen, etc.<p>Think it can work? Maybe we'll get to addressing the A and the OM, and the end of that at the MC sessions?<p>Well, from my end, this is progress. we shall see...

SC:<p>"While I clearly stayed away from the subject of the A and the OM, at least I feel it's a big step forward because it opens the door to joint MC with one of the Harley practitioners I got a referral to here in my area,"<p>"Think it can work? Maybe we'll get to addressing the A and the OM, and the end of that at the MC sessions?"<p>Yeah, I think it can work. But be prepared (perhaps with eager anticipation) for the MC to say something like mine did to me: "What makes you think you can work on rebuilding your M with this big elephant in the room?" <p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

I know 2Long, that's probably EXACTLY what he'll say. But, and this is a big but, it is the MC saying it, NOT me.<p>Maybe with a little work and building trust with the MC, she'll realize this IS something we need to deal with, and not just something I want to deal with...

SC:<p>I know, it's weird. I can say things "to" my W in front of the MC that would have her running out the door, tweaked as hell, if I said them to her at home. Best thing about that session with MC last week was that MC didn't pull any punches herself, and really got my W thinking. Not just about what she was asking of my W, but what she was asking ME and how I responded - I clearly KNEW what I was talking about! I think that floored my W, because before D-day I didn't know a darn thing about human relationships.<p>Sad thing for me now, and probably part of why I got so depressed yesterday, is that my W is loving and close to me in a superficial way. We don't talk about anything that's sensitive (=important). I think she really is avoiding dialog with OM. And I really do think that she wants our M to continue. Problem for me is that I can see that without talking about EVERYTHING, I'm just not getting the honesty and exclusive emotional intimacy that I will need to stay in this M. This may change, of course, but our next MC session is another 2 weeks away, and a lot happens in just 2 weeks as you know. I'm starting to understand ALL of the odd fog latin things my W has said over the years, in the light of D-day revelation. ALL of it was rationalization to justify her A, or keep her from "losing it", knowing what she was really doing. Bottom line, she hasn't yet faced the gravity of what she has done, and I'm not sure she ever will. If she can't, I can imagine myself filing for divorce and handing her the papers even when things are going okay between us. "Okay" meaning as before D-day, with me wondering for the rest of my life if her "privacy" includes newer, better hidden As. I won't live life like that any longer.<p>Make sense? (sorry for rambling!!)

2Long; it makes perfect sense for her to be behaving this way. These things take time to work. She's in withdrawl, and she will not be ready for full intimacy for some time.<p>This is normal, this is good! She's on her way. You hung in there while the A was going on, you can hang in there a bit longer knowing it's over and helping her get through one of the more difficult times she'll ever face.<p>I know it's not easy, we all suffer from "can-we-get-this-show-on-the-road" syndrome, heck, I'm MR LET'S DEAL WITH THIS NOW, and I've had to learn to accept and even appreciate very small forward progress as a major accomplishment. Because it is..remember we're Martians and they are Venusians...we don't think alike.<p>BTW, if you haven't read the "Men are from Mars..." series, I highly recommend it.

SC and 2long,
I am so impressed with both of you. How interested you are in having emotional intimacy in your relationships, how patient you've both been, and how thoughtful you've been. Hat's off to you! My H is a wonderful person, but he's not analytical when it comes to relationships and really isn't interested in analyzing them. I do think that some people are kind of clueless when it comes to talking about their feelings about their relationships and analyzing relationships. <p>2long, is your wife analytical? Perhaps that's a problem for her...anyway, where can I find "your main story" posted? I'd like to read more.
SC,
I like your new approach. I hope it works. By the way, coming here are reading all of these posts and reading about all the pain and heartache an EA can cause, has really helped me get my s**t together and to be strong and not give into my selfish needs for attention.
Thanks,
AS

SC:<p>"BTW, if you haven't read the "Men are from Mars..." series, I highly recommend it."<p>One of those series that my W has described as "stupid and simplistic." I should ask her to write a book! <p>Hm... Is there any significance to the fact that the average surface temperature on Venus is around 480C, whereas on Mars it's somewhere around -20C? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

ashirley;
I'm sure both 2Long and myself thank you for the compliments and the encouragement.<p>What is sad, at least in my case, is that something like this had to happen for me to wake up. Because of it I have read, looked inside of me, (and not liked what I saw), and I began to learn, learn, learn. I now understand things I had never even thought about (withdrawl, for instance), and because I've learned, I am able to probably know more about what my W felt and is now feeling than even she knows or understands. And that has made me more understanding, more compassionate, more patient, and more forgiving. I only hope she can someday find the same in her, and be willing to work with me so we can go to a better place, together.
And it has certainly helped me A LOT to have you around here...I am thankful, and I feel for you; more than you may know. I mean that; and I'll be here for you in any way that I can.
Many thanks.

2Long; you are TOO funny! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>"Hm... Is there any significance to the fact that the average surface temperature on Venus is around 480C, whereas on Mars it's somewhere around -20C?"<p>I don't know, but I suspect we could start a heated debate here on the boards if we go there! I'd hate to arouse the ire of our gifted and vocal (and very helpful) female boardmembers. No matter what we said, we'd come off as chauvinists...or worse!<p>While I must concur in that the Venus and Mars books are not the end-all of male-female relations, they do give us some understanding, and more importantly, they teach us to watch for certain things, be aware of certain things, and to be conscious of the differences. And that's important because one of the main issues we all have to overcome in these situations is to understand that we deal with things in different ways, and we have different "solutions" to things...once we understand that, at least partially, it makes it much less frustrating than before, when we'd say "why the heck can't you see it my way?!?!?!"
So yes, simplistic, maybe. But valuable nonetheless.

ashirley;
2Long has several threads, but I think this one below is the "main" one. In the "just Found Out" section.<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=29&t=001525<p>Space

SC:<p>And then there's the fact that Venus' atmosphere is about 90 bars at the surface, comparable to the earth's oceans at something like 30,000 ft depth (not too many places that deep) whereas Mars' atmosphere is only about 9 millibars, comparable to the Earth's atmosphere at about 150,000 ft altitude. Guess that's why we're so light-headed most of the time? And why, when we invade Venusian space, we get instantaneously crushed? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

2Long;
You're determined to get us into trouble, aren't you?<p>Yes, I suppose the temperature as well as the atmospheric pressure of Venus and Mars have something to do with our differences...and crushed? Yes, that they do, that they do! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

ashirley:<p>"I am so impressed with both of you. How interested you are in having emotional intimacy in your relationships, how patient you've both been, and how thoughtful you've been. Hat's off to you! My H is a wonderful person, but he's not analytical when it comes to relationships and really isn't interested in analyzing them. I do think that some people are kind of clueless when it comes to talking about their feelings about their relationships and analyzing relationships. "<p>Thanks very much for the kind words! Actually, I could say exactly the same thing SC said. Before D-day, I was completely clueless about Rs. Even on D-day, if there wasn't an internet, I would have probably been lost, maybe ended my M right then and there, and would have been doomed to suffer the same fate the next time around. I think men have an overwhelming tendency to be clueless about even their own Rs, and how to maintain them properly. But the shock of D-day was so intense that there is no way I want to be caught off-guard like that again. I also feel, like SC does, that I know far more about what my W is feeling/thinking these days than she does herself.<p>"2long, is your wife analytical? Perhaps that's a problem for her...anyway, where can I find "your main story" posted? I'd like to read more."<p>Yes she is. Has an MS in Anthropology (I won't be specific, though). Got it from a department fraught with As between professors and grad students. Bunch of real losers, in my view, and I've told her so.<p>I'll look up the threads SC is referring to, and let you know if there are others that have more. <p>Thanks!

ashirley:<p>Boy, with this phone internet connection, I'm having a tough time finding my old posts. They're out there, though. <p>For a particularly harrowing account of when I almost threw my W out, but was saved by Just Learning, check out: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=29&t=001423&p=1<p>But in a nutshell: My W's OM was a coworker and shared an office with her in grad school, and the A started while I was working on my PhD and working full-time. <p>D-day consisted of me logging into my home email account and seeing messages from our ISP saying our folders were full and we should delete stuff. I went to the "sent mail" folder, which contains sent mail from me, my W and my D, and started deleting my messages that had pictures attached. To decide which to toss, I opened them to see what they were. When I decided to toss one, I hit the delete key and it trashed the message. Now, when you do that while viewing the messages, the next message in the sequence is displayed. In one case, it was one sent by my W to OM, with hotel rendezvous plans and explicit sexual content. When I confronted her with this when I got home, she said it was "playful kidding" and that there wasn't anything going on. She then opened up the folder herself and deleted all her messages (but I had downloaded them to my computer already). Her explanation didn't sit well with me all week, so when I was helping her type up a cover letter and she went to take a shower, I opened her mail (netscape downloads to her laptop and doesn't leave the messages on the server) and found a LOT more such mail. When she came out of the shower, I confronted her, and she confessed to an 11-year EA/PA, which had been PA for a "while" for a "few times" initially, with a "friends" period in between, then another EA/PA starting about a year and a half ago, with 2 sexual encounters by last summer. <p>She believed she ended the A last fall, after the fire at our house jolted her back to reality, or so she thought. We actually had a pretty good time between late November and D-day, with closeness and good family interaction during that time. She was "working on" our M in her own way during that time, and had planned to "tell me about the A" in a year or so... ...yeah, right!<p>I still don't know what's going to happen. She has said from D-day on that the sex wasn't very fulfilling, and that it was always good between us, and so the frequency, although it actually increased and decreased a bit early on, it hasn't been much different than during her PAs. I keep telling her that the EA is more dangerous for her, but she thinks I'm harping on the sex (which bothers me badly enough). <p>Anyway, things are going better lately, but I'm going to need for her to open up to me a lot more, and permanently, if I'm going to keep our M together. She does seem to be keeping from personal contact with OM, but still sends and receives email from him about the report he's supposed to have finished for her a long time ago. Thankfully, for me, he's been showing his "true colors" for several months now, and she's been seeing them. But it never ceases to amaze me just how stupidly a smart individual can behave!<p>Boy, just got off the phone with W. She's out of town through tomorrow (which is why I have so much time in the eveinings to post!). We talked for a good 45 minutes on the phone. More about our situation than in the past several weeks, combined. She definitely has a very different "take" on her A and our M than I do. She said she's not talking to OM because I'm so adamant that she not, but she and her IC think "it's prepostrous to expect her not to have a friendship and working relationship with him". Am I daft? Where did that IC come from??? What is the deal here? I tried to explain to her why I feel the way I do about OM being in our lives. That it's the deceitful and intimate nature of their relationship that I can't accept. She said that "nobody can take someone away from you" and something about how *I* withdrew from her and didn't take her "hints" that something was wrong. She pointed out to me that she told me she was attracted to "someone" she worked with (I'm amazed that she doesn't think she told me WHO, and she was surprised that I knew who he was). I pointed out that she certainly never told me they'd been intimate, emotionally or physically, that they'd had an A. She says she doesn't like that word, that it was a relationship. I said, "okay, but it was a deceitful relationship." A takes less syllables to say, is the only difference.<p>We never raised our voices, which was very good. We talked about a lot of things. I think her fierce independence is going to be a potential problem. Not directly, but because she feels like she's "owned" or gives up herself being M'd. To make a very, very long story short, I think we're going to be okay, but it's going to take a lot of work (the kind of work she doesn't want to do). We've definitely got a lot of intimacy issues to discuss, too. And honesty: what does it mean to her and me? (well, to me, it's revealing her innermost secrets exclusively to me, so that I can understand her better and "be there" when she's in trouble). <p>Thankfully, she really doesn't want to have another A with OM or anybody else, but she takes out her frustrations with other people and what they seem to "want" from her, on me, and that hurts. At least, I can tell her that it hurts. I can also tell her that maybe DV is better for her, but it sounds like she doesn't want that any more than I do. <p>So much of our problems over the past 11 years is due to misunderstanding each other and overinterpreting what each other has said at crucial moments. I took a lot of what she said as hurtful that she doesn't understand my reaction to. She, in turn, thinks that things I did for her, like help type her MS (she's dyslexic) or reports, was tedious for me, or was just a result of a bargain we made - that she'd support me getting my PhD if I'd help her get her MS. I pointed out to her that I enjoyed working with her on those things. She doesn't remember that, though... ...and so the resentment built out of nothing to become a mountain over the years!!! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I dunno. I'm going to call her tomorrow afternoon, and maybe if she's feeling okay (she's got this cold I'm just getting over), I'll drive up there and go out to dinner and spend the night with her. <p>We ended the conversation very sweetly. I told her that I love her laugh, I love hearing her voice, and that I love her. She's still uncomfortable saying ILY, says that it doesn't mean anything said too often. I pointed out that not ever saying it doesn't mean ILY either, and that although actions do speak louder than words, they can be misunderstood and overdone just as much as words can. <p>Overall, a very productive conversation. I think we'll be okay... ...after a helluva lot of hard work!!<p>Sorry to hijack your thread, here, SC!

SC, ashirley:<p>Sorry about hijacking this thread. I've reposted most of my message to a new thread at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=29&t=001544
so that I could vent some more of my concerns/thoughts before I see my IC in less than 3 hours (and my W this afternoon [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ). If you're up, please take a gander and comment!

2long,
Wow, that's a lot to digest..I'll do it in pieces. But a couple of questions jump to mind. Was her EA/PA for 11 years with the same OM? or was there more than one? Also, what about the OM, is he married, is he trying to end it, or is he in Hot pursuit of your W? Does your W work in a college setting? I did, that's where I fell for my OM...luckily, I was able to change places of employment, otherwise it would have been really, really hard to stop seeing the OM.<p>I'm also a bit fiesty and didn't want my H telling me who I could and couldn't be friends with. I was absolutely determined to have a friendship with this OM...but I've finally accepted that that can't/won't ever happen.

SC,
My H just doesn't want to focus on relationships, feelings, etc. I think it's just too much work. But I'm going to have to get him interested and willing to deal/learn about this stuff.<p>He is a really hard worker, and a perfectionist. Any project he takes on, becomes a big project..a bfd. So I think he's pretty spent by the end of the day. He's been great, when I've told him my needs, and he keeps them at the forefront of his mind. But don't ask him to read anything about relationships...not interested...I guess I'll have to give him stuff in small doses. Maybe I'll print some stuff off this website to share with him...He's just a bit clueless. I think he'd be shocked and disturbed by the amount of time and energy I put into this...but he needs to know, bc it's a part of me...I feel like I have this secret...but I'm afraid to tell him, bc I think he'd think less of me...He'd think, what's her problem, just get on with things. What's the deal, why does she have to anyalyze, relive, and think about this? Just get a life. <p>I'm rambling...

ashirley:<p>"Was her EA/PA for 11 years with the same OM?"<p>Yes.<p>"Also, what about the OM, is he married,"<p>Yes, with 2 kids.<p>"is he trying to end it, or is he in Hot pursuit of your W?"<p>He's trying to continue it, but probably laying low because he may have "guessed" that I found out. My W hasn't told him I know, but did tell him to send all email to her work account, not to use our ISP at home, due to my reaction to intercepting their messages early last month.<p>"Does your W work in a college setting?"<p>She did when she met OM. They shared an office together, and she worked for him in a lab.<p>"I did, that's where I fell for my OM...luckily, I was able to change places of employment, otherwise it would have been really, really hard to stop seeing the OM."<p>Thankfullly, for the past 5 years or so, OM has lived in another state. They were able to get together this last year and a half maybe 3 times, with only 2 sexual encounters (and one of them not "going all the way" or so my W says). They exchanged email almost daily, though, and my W even said that she obsessed with waiting for his replies every day at work. So, the EA was SERIOUS, whatever she might be trying to get me to believe now.<p>"I'm also a bit fiesty and didn't want my H telling me who I could and couldn't be friends with. I was absolutely determined to have a friendship with this OM...but I've finally accepted that that can't/won't ever happen. "<p>And how and when did you come to this realization? This is a huge problem for me. Before I will ever try to claim we're in recovery, he MUST BE DEALT WITH. I found myself thinking more and more this morning that our M just can't work. I don't like having those thoughts.

2long,
I had an EA with the OM for 2 years. We spent the last year trying to disconnect. I always hoped/prayed/wanted to believe that I could be friends with this man. Yes, I thought that I loved him, but bc I wasn't planning on having a physical relationship with him, didn't want to break up my marriage, didn't want a divorce, then why couldn't we be friends?...I want to be friends with people I'm attracted to and connect with, not with people I don't connect with, etc. He was only interested in a friendship, so I didn't understand why this couldn't work out. It was the classic struggle between mind and heart. <p>I knew in my heart of hearts that I wouldn't be able to be friends with him bc my feelings were just too stong. When we'd email, I'd practically hold my breath waiting for a response. When I talked with him, I couldn't wait for the opportunity to talk again, when we saw each other I just wanted to see him again, etc. I finally accepted that I couldn't be just friends with a person I felt so strongly for...it was just too painful and too damaging to my marriage.<p>But, if he had thought we could remain in touch, I would have tried to continue. Luckily for me, he began to feel uncomfortable with our friendship and said we needed to go our separate ways. That was 2 1/2 weeks ago. I feel strong and don't plan on ever contacting him again.<p>In my situation, I needed him to be the tough guy. I just couldn't do it (or didn't want to do it.) It would be really, really hard if he wanted to have contact and I didn't think we should...I couldn't bear that. I wish your wife's OM would help her by bowing out and staying out...forever.