ashirley:<p>"In my situation, I needed him to be the tough guy. I just couldn't do it (or didn't want to do it.) It would be really, really hard if he wanted to have contact and I didn't think we should...I couldn't bear that. I wish your wife's OM would help her by bowing out and staying out...forever. "<p>Boy, don't I wish this, too! I agonize over whether it would do any good to contact him myself, but always decide that would be a huge LB, even if I could convince my W that I wouldn't be "mean" in the process. It's good for her, it's good for him, and it's the best thing for both our families. That should be obvious to anyone with at least three synapses firing, so why not a WW with a M.S.?

You know 11 years is a long time. I'm a big proponent for patience, but enough is enough. No contact with the OM is acceptable. <p>You might need to save your wife from herself...she can't let go, but you can't have her back until she does. I know that you love her and don't want to lose her...but you can't go on like this much longer either. Can you ask her to leave, and to come back once she's willing to cut-off contact with the OM? What would she do? <p>I'm sorry, I haven't read your other posts, so you've probably already gone over this...I'll try to read some of your other posts.<p>Good luck, and you need to be tough...but loving...Do not give your wife any wiggle room, any hope that she can be in touch with the OM. She must stop sooner rather than later and save her marriage and her family.

ashirley:<p>I may get to that point sooner than later. I may have found out inadvertenly (won't say how) that OM is "in town" to drop off samples at W's office today. He lives 2 states away, so he should have shipped them!<p>Thankfully, my W isn't at the office, and is a couple hours' drive away from there. Also, I'm supposed to call her this afternoon about going there to spend the night with her, so it'd be hard for her to sneak around if that's what she would do. I honestly don't know what she'd do, if he called and tried to get together with her while he's around. I'll have to be careful around her through the weekend, at least. God, this hurts all over again!<p> [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

You better make sure you meet her tonight and are with her as much as possible the next few days...At least make cheating hard for her!

Well, well, well...I don't know what to make of this. Maybe the wise folks on the board can help me figure it out?<p>Quick synopsis: My WW has so far refused to acknowledge the ongoing EA, talk about it, etc.
I'm nearing the end of my Plan A rope, and have several issues in fron of me. First deciding whther and how to end comm b/w WW and OM who is in prison. Second, she's headed out of town to the general area where the OM is in prison and I suspect she intends to visit. Third, I had a pretty frank talk with her a few days ago about needing to start taking some concrete action, and patience running out.
(Details of all this are in my thread)<p>Now today, she comes in after her work and we're having coffee and she's being as nice as can be...and almost out of the blue, she hugs me and tells me "I want to tell you something; I love you. I love you very much." and she proceeeds to kiss me...and then says "And I want to tell you something else; I'm here because I want to be with you, I want us to work together to fix our marriage." at which point I'm as close to meltdown as butter in the microvawe...and she continues "And I want to thank you because you've been very good to me. I really appreciate that"<p>I know I'm supposed to take everything she says with a grain of salt, and I'm SO distraught at the thought that she might be headed to see the OM next week, and she has just been so ADAMANT about having ended it when it hasn't...that I don't want to make more of it than it is...I even suspect it could be a ploy, that's how suspicious I've become....but I so desperately want to believe she may be coming around....any thoughts?

It might be genuine but I would tend to keep my guard up if I were you. WS are notorious for playing mind games with BS when they are least expected.<p>Until there is definite proof that she has broken contact with OM via a no-contact letter or call, I would not put to much credence in anything she says.<p>Remember the old saying 'actions speak louder than words'<p>Joe

SC:<p>I agree with TMCM, for the most part. Our WWs are behaving pretty similarly, though I must admit that I don't know your's. In my case, I think the desire to rebuild our M is genuine on her part, though she would also like to continue contact with OM at the same time. I think she's trying, for the short term at least, to go along with not contacting OM for my benefit, but as TMCM says, until she agrees to no contact and we tell OM NO CONTACT, it's not over. <p>I'd take the ILYs for what they are, at the very least. Which is, she's saying them to make you feel better. Now, she may be saying a lot more than that, too (like she really does LY), but I sure know how I feel when my W says those things to me, and so I cherish them while continuing to stay on my guard.

SC:<p>I should have added: Feeling good about what my W does or says for me makes it easier for me to be nice to her, which only helps make the "choice" she has to make, ultimately, easier (to stay, harder to leave).

2Long;
I think it is what it is; a positive development, but not a definite resolution of anything.<p>At this point, a positive development is a good thing, and I'll take it!<p>Time will tell, and if we start having a series of these "small positive developments", we'll slowly get to where we want to go.

ashirley, I was re-reading some of this and realized I did not answer your post. you said:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> SC,
My H just doesn't want to focus on relationships, feelings, etc. I think it's just too much work. But I'm going to have to get him interested and willing to deal/learn about this stuff.
He is a really hard worker, and a perfectionist. Any project he takes on, becomes a big project..a bfd. So I think he's pretty spent by the end of the day. He's been great, when I've told him my needs, and he keeps them at the forefront of his mind. But don't ask him to read anything about relationships...not interested...I guess I'll have to give him stuff in small doses. Maybe I'll print some stuff off this website to share with him...He's just a bit clueless. I think he'd be shocked and disturbed by the amount of time and energy I put into this...but he needs to know, bc it's a part of me...I feel like I have this secret...but I'm afraid to tell him, bc I think he'd think less of me...He'd think, what's her problem, just get on with things. What's the deal, why does she have to anyalyze, relive, and think about this? Just get a life. <p>I'm rambling... <p> <hr></blockquote><p>Here's my take on it, and unfortunately, it is a hard lesson I learned.
I don't know if I said it before on the boards, but my W had another A 14 years ago. A short EA/PA with a gym instructor. At the time, I was content with the fact that it ended, and I didn't really want to hear about it, and that was that.
I never brought it up again, and I don't think I ever consciously used it against my W, although she says I did, and maybe sub-consciously I did...but that's another story.<p>The point is, I sincerely believe that if back then we'd addressed the issues that surrounded the A, got counseling, read books, whatever...maybe we wouldn't be in this situation we're in again now. Maybe we'd have learned enough to realize that these things have to be dealt with.<p>So as it relates to you and your H, I think you should try to get him into MC, or otherwise try to get him to learn and understand what happened, deal with the feelings (YOURS and his), and together negotiate and support each other back to a healthy M. If he doesn't somehow deal with it, the repercussions could be terrible. I mean, what if my W is right and I did belittle or otherwise "make her feel small" because of my subconscious anger, fear, etc.? I might have inadvertently been laying the goundwork for many of the feelings that remained and helped create the environment where other As could thrive?<p>I don't even want to go there, but who's to say my W didn't have other As I never found out about?<p>Find a way to get him to read, learn, deal with it, ashirley! I'm happy to help if I can.<p>[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

SC:<p>Things were similar here. My W had an EA with a coworker about 19 years ago, lasted a few months. Neither of us thought it was an A at the time, because we didn't know anything about EAs. I wish I'd dealt with it then. Similarly, she says she's had short EAs with other coworkers, that never got physical, though I didn't know about them until this biggie came to light. I agree, though. There's no substitute for getting both partners in a couple into counseling. It's too serious

Another thought/question I think many BS need answered.<p>In order for the WS to reach a point where they can be completely truthful (Radical Honesty), they must first trust the BS.<p>This breakdown of trust b/w the WS and the BS can occur in many ways; in my case, the fear created by my initial reactions to discovery, the break of "trust" created by my snooping/spying (weird how the fact that they lied has no bearing on this...), the lack of trust that the "changes" evidenced by a decent Plan A are real, etc.<p>Now, what actual actions or evidence do WS need to be able to trust the BS enough to feel "safe" that they can be totally truthful about the A, the lies, the whys, etc.?<p>Also, and this is a big one for me, I believe most of the break in trust that my WW can feel justified about at this point stems from the discovery of the A itself; my very emotional reactions to it, my snooping BECAUSE I was not getting the truth in the first place, etc. So why is it that the BS is supposed to give the WS the "benefit of the doubt" and the WS somehow cannot?<p>I don't get it. Is it the "fog" again? Jeez, I live in Houston, not London!!!<p>[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

SC:<p>I've been thinking about the trust issue a lot myself lately. I think the break in trust by my WW of me since D-day is real, and similar to what you describe (with exactly the same reasons! The emotional reaction, the snooping, ...), but it isn't as serious a proble for us as the concern my W has that the changes I've made (in plan A) are permanent. Just Learning pointed out elsewhere that I my personality certainly hasn't "changed" but my perspective on our relationship and thus my behavior HAS changed, and can never be the same ever again. I explained this to my W recently, and she seems to be satisfied with that, but I think that living with those changes is going to have to continue for a while longer before she can feel completely able to "trust" my changes will last. <p>She's also told me a bit more about the incidents (really short conversations) over the years that caused our M to deteriorate. I keep hearing the same things that go sour in most Ms and that ours isn't unusual, but I guess I have to agree that her reaction to this has caused her pain similar, though not so intense over such a short time, to my finding out about her A. No excuse for any of it, though.<p>In my case, since she doesn't seem to think her A was that "serious" with OM, I'm again having a tough time with getting her to consider no contact again. Had that one day after our MC session that she seemed to reluctantly accept that it was needed, followed by the comment she made after her IC session the following week (last Monday) that it was "preposterous for me to expect no contact". Since then, we've focused on our interactions, which have been awesome. Really, we've had such closeness like we haven't felt in at least 15 years, and I'm loving it. So I'm going to follow my IC's advice and only bring up no contact in our MC sessions (next one is a week from Tuesday), with NO HOLDS BARRED. <p>Got to go. Wife's in the house. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

OK, the long awaited start of a strategy towards a solution is here!<p>(and by the way, I’m posting here because I’ve grown kind of “attached” to my original post, and somehow I’ve felt that it is easier for those who are interested to follow the details of “my story” if it’s all in the same place, even if it is getting long…and besides, I want to try to compete with Persistant’s mega-post on JFO ;-) just kidding!!! <p>As many of you know, I am at a crossroads on the path to recovery, and I was stuck: thinking of going to Plan B, deciding whether I should intervene and end my WW’s contact with the OM, proposing other alternatives like the 3-month “trial” recovery, looking for Harley practitioners in Houston, waiting for my first call with Steve Harley, etc.<p>At the same time, there have been some good signals from my W, (like reaffirming that she wants us to fix our M, saying she does think it may be time to start MC together, being a slight little bit more receptive to the idea that there are people out there who know about this stuff and can help, and her very kind words a few days ago), so I have been posting like mad, trying to find the right path to follow.<p>Some of the posts specific to these items are listed below:<p>GQII
I can stop comm b/w WW and OM..should I?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017275 <p>Can the board help me descipher this?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017403 <p>To Rebuild? or End M? How to decide
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017471 <p>Can any anyone refer to a Harley practitioner in Houston?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017289 <p>OK Former WSs-what convinced you of No Contact?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017438 <p>JFO
What has worked for WS to understand need for No Contact?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=29&t=001553 <p>Yes, don’t say it, I know I’m anal, but believe me, that’s the least of my defects! (If you don’t believe me, ask my wife!)<p>So I obviously had a lot of story-telling and questions for Steve on our first call this morning. I told him the whole story (abbreviated), talked about the things we’ve made progress on, like how we were really making progress in discovering and fulfilling each others’ ENs, how there is a commitment on both sides to re-build the M. And mentioned some of the key sticking points, like my WW not ending the A, lying about it, saying it was over, and mainly, not wanting to talk about it at all; feeling that we were on the right track to recovery, and that we should not touch that point at all, because it’s over and it’s not necessary.<p>We also covered the issue(s) around my W’s first A, 14 years ago, and how that had ended and we’d never really dealt with it at all. That we’d never brought it up again in conversation or in anger, and how regardless of that, my wife has always felt that I “made her feel small”, and how she has been using that experience as the basis for NOT doing the same thing this time around…(mainly ending it the way “you” want to). Which is true enough; back then I said: “It’s over, and that’s it!”, but we never worked through it, the causes, the issues, nothing; we just went on with our lives as if nothing had happened. Who understands this stuff?!?!?!?!?<p>I won’t bore you with all the details, but here are the highlights:
That I should bear in mind that our Primary objective is to fall in love and stay in love.<p>That the OM is a Secondary objective to the Primary objective, so we will approach it from that standpoint.<p>Given the past history, and the very strong feelings my W has about the A, the OM, ending it, etc. And given that she does not trust me, (Give. Me. A. Break.), which impedes our going into a recovery program, our approach should be to introduce her to the concepts around Falling in Love/Staying in Love, the Love Bank, Joint Agreement, Radical Honesty, etc. as a program created to restore the love to a M, so that she will “buy” into the concepts first.<p>Steve’s assertion is that in cases where the second spouse is not “with the program” this is a better approach, as it can be used to get us on the same page in terms of the Basic Concepts and the value to the M that these bring, and that once this is accomplished, and she begins to understand the concepts and internalize them, she will begin to understand the impact of the A, the lies, the OM, and when that happens, it will be time to address those Secondary issues (End the A, No Contact, etc.). <p>Steve feels that in cases where there is an EA (as in my case), there can be some “flexibility” to the program in terms of ending the A, whereas with a PA, ending it is an initial imperative. While he was VERY clear that it DOES NOT mean that it’s OK for the A to continue, it is OK for us to leave that subject alone for a bit of time in order to gain the confidence and the buy-in to the Basic Concepts, which in turn, will begin to bring the realization that the A must end because of the division and the pain it causes, etc. That once the individual buy into the concepts, she will begin to see, on her own, how this A is totally inconsistent with what we are trying to accomplish and, in fact, is a major impediment to moving forward.<p>Seeing that my W has begun to buy into the concept of joint MC, and has accepted that there may be people out there who know about this and can help, and knowing of the support and knowledge I have found here and with the people here, he suggests that I “invite” her to meet Steve on a call of their own, very much as a “look, this seems very interesting to me, take a look at it and let me know what you think” kind of’ thing.<p>That way, she’s not being forced, and I’m not imposing “my way” on her, but rather I’ll be giving her the chance to participate in deciding whether this might be a good thing for us or not, and make it a joint decision.<p>I will provide him with my version of what I think my W would respond in the Love-Busters questionnaire ahead of time, to sort of give him a little background, and that we’d speak again, him and me, after that.<p>He feels that we could, in this way, in a non-confrontational manner, bring her “into” the program, and begin a series of sessions, some individual, some joint, where we would begin to see how things develop, until it becomes time to “shoot the elephant” (I think that’s what we call it around here, isn’t it?) at which time we will be able to address it in a session, as a natural progression to what we are already doing.<p>That’s the gist of it.<p>Some other specific points we covered; I gave my W a copy of the “Basic Concepts” (printed from the web site) to take with her on her trip (remember, this week she’s in NY and, ouch, major heartburn!, a few days in FL visiting friends with possibly a visit to the OM, pass the Tums, please!!!) and told her “this is one of the programs I’ve found, which I think is very interesting and could help us, why don’t you take it with you on your trip, read it, and let me know what you think about it when you get back”. This was entirely un-planned, but it works perfectly for when I introduce the idea of speaking with Steve when she’s back.<p>Regarding the prison stuff, Steve believes that this would be a very bad time to execute the plan of cutting off communications with the OM; not because he’s against it per-se, but because of the timing. He feels, and probably rightly so, that if I do it now, regardless of the evidence or lack thereof, she will “know” I had a hand in it, and it could torpedo our “strategy”. He feels that if things don’t go as planned, we could always play that card later. Besides, if she suspected I was involved and she asked me, I’d have to admit it, and that could get ugly.<p>That’s the deal. Thoughts? Ideas?
Play Devil’s Advocate for Steve and I here….<p>PS. I’m not and never will be, a walking billboard, but let me tell you; the positive energy I got from Steve, and the instantaneous connection we made, was something else! We walked right through this like two old friends chatting, he caught my drift and I caught his from the start, it was GOOD!!!
So to any of you out there that have been toying with the idea, have some doubts you need to clear up, some things the boards have not been able to quite put together for you, do it! You won’t regret it.

SC:<p>Cool!

Cool!, 2Long? That's all I get from you? This is a first! I thought you'd take it apart piece by piece! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

way cool then [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Not surprisingly, this sounds like what Dr. Harley told me, and he sent Fall In Love, Stay In Love to give to my H, suggesting we read it together. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

ok Spacey [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ,
I'll try to give you a little more here - but not much. No one can really add a whole lot to what Steve says!!<p>I'm so glad you feel better after talking with Steve. It really helps that you had done your homework ahead of time. So, good for you!!! Steve really is easy to talk to, and is very knowledgable about this stuff, and "people" in general.<p>Thank you for sharing your counseling session here with us. Many newbies can read your valuable notes and get a jump-start on their plan of action. Steve DOES modify strategies based on each situation, but the basics are the same. <p>I really don't have much else, besides listen to Steve, follow his direction, and come to us for help when you stumble on the plan Steve gave you.<p>I believe your situation sounds very hopeful [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . GOod luck, and I am rootin for ya!!!<p>oh yeah... what the heck do you do for a living?? Links, outlines, SAT notes, references, footnotes, slide rules, pocket protectors, palm pilots, etc... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

Faith;
Thanks for your comments, I didn't think our very vocal group of MBers would shut down just because Steve talked, but I guess I was wrong...I didn't really expect disagreement, but rather exploration and perhaps expansion of the theme.
Be that as it may, I felt better today than I've felt in a long time, and actually much more hopeful.<p>What do I do for a living? Do I come acrross as a total nerd/geek/slide-rule guy? Ouch!<p>Well, I am a computer systems consultant, but I work primarily around the human issues of implementing computer systems (communications/training/change management/useability) rather than the technical side (ZERO programming), as well as helping manage the interaction between the techies and the business units requiring the system. And I have specialized in project management for customer relationship management (CRM) systems.
And the only reason I spelled it all out is that I was "down-sized" and am looking for work...so if there are any takers...