ILove; your post requires some more thought and time on my part...VERY interesting points you make.<p>But right now, I'm off to see Star Wars with my W and older son....so pressing matters beckon! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'll be back! [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>SC,
IMHO, I was in Plan A my whole marriage. My way of contributing to the A was NOT confronting and allowing it to go on for so long. SO, if your Plan A is not much different then how you have lived your married life than Plan B most certainly can go into effect immediately.

As you can see by my signature line, EVERYTIME there was contact - I went into immediate Plan B. That way, he learned (hopefully) contacting OW=pain/abandonement/homelessness etc. It is NOT a demand, it is a choice - choose her and you are free to leave, choose me and there is NO her in this equation!
</strong><hr></blockquote> <p>Well, I guess all of us, in some way and to a greater or lesser degree, "Plan A" in our marriages on an on-going basis. However, I think that the difference is that while in Plan Aing the Harley way, we should expect nothing in return. And I don't see that happening except when we make a conscious decision to do it.<p>In my case, there are certainly many things about my M that were not working, there were unfulfilled ENs on both sides, and LBs as well. So my plan A has been a very definite and clear change from before. My W sees it, I see it, and it has had SOME effects (albeit less effect than I would like). Right now, my W is really trying to get better with me, and more importantly, she has been improving in many of my ENs. I think the only thing missing is her recognition of the As effects, her willingness to end it, and her understanding the we must make some fundamental changes to our R if it is to succeed in the future. Things like Honesty, POJA, etc.<p>So, going to Plan B would only be useful if it can achieve some of that by showing the loss she'd be subjected to and the importance these things have for our future together.<p>And of course each one must decide when time for Plan B is, but we have to know that Plan B as a tool to "punish" the WS does not work, and also that without a very good solid Plan A before it, Plan B has zero chance of success.
My feeling is that your going to Plan B numerous times does not meet either of these criteria.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>But since you are meeting with Steve Monday, yes I would say it can wait that long. </strong><hr></blockquote> <p>No question of that. I did not mean to imply that I was thinking of doing it immediately. It's just my fear of the reaction I will have to what I might discover when I get the information. In the past, when I recorded a call with the OM, or found a letter, my reaction has been very, very strong...I fear that because it can make me do things I don't really want to do. It'll also be a test of my detachment and progress on a personal level to see how I feel when it does happen.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I think people get confused. Confronting in love, is NOT a LB. In fact being radically honest includes being radically honest with your spouse about your feelings AND the facts you have on her. Withholding/hiding info ONLY encourages her behavior. Your mad at her for withholding info about her contacting OM and you are doing the same thing! Withholding facts from her about that you already know about OM! </strong><hr></blockquote> <p>2 good points. Yes, a loving/non-judgemental confrontation is good. Something like what I was thinking; "look, I know x, y and z are going on, I feel this is disrespectful to me, and we cannot truly rebuild while this is going on; what would you like to do about it?" or something to that effect.<p>As to Radical Honesty about what I know. You are right in this; however, we've had many discussions here about this and the conclusions we've reached are that 1. If confronting with the proof can have a positive effect on the WS, then do it. (Like prompting the end of the A, or otherwise prompting some positive behavior for the M).<p>But, on the other hand, when confronting has the effect it has had in my case, major LB, hysterics, anger, denial, screaming, etc. then it is not useful; it is damaging to the R so why do it? It has only driven her more underground in her contact and has prompted more lies, etc.<p>The conclusion we've reached here on the boards is that we keep this information to ourselves UNTIL it is the right time to confront. When is the right time? When it can have a positive effect on the R or for Recovery.<p>And 2. To protect ourselves, if necessary, in case the M ends in D or we are not successful at recovery. In my case, she has a R with a convicted felon; anything that happens between my W and this man is of interest to me, my kids could become the stepchildren of a convicted drug dealer with repeated offenses and stints in prison.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>For me, at one point, I was in the obsessive compulsive mode that I had to find more proof. So you keep digging/snooping and withholding infor until you get some good hard proof (like a picture of them together or something). The problem is 1) that kind of proof is hard to find and you have a gazzilion other small facts that lead any person with common sense to ALREADY know the worst is happening. 2) you are allowing it to progress to a level you don't want it to get to. IF you confront immediately, they are exposed and they need to make decisions which can happen before a fullblown PA actually occurs. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I feel the same way; I've been pretty compulsive about snooping in the past, but I stopped doing it as much because it was not useful and it hurt me. What I do now in that sense is only for 2 reasons: in case there comes a time when it might be useful, and in order to know enough about the A and what may be happening in it that could affect me or the children. <p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Confronting in love would be: "honey, I love you and I want to work on our marriage and I found out that you are in contact with OP". Then the WS usually gets VERY angry and says something like "I am not in contact with OP, your crazy, your so jealous and controlling..." then respond in love calmly "honey, I'm not trying to find out IF it is true because I already know that it is and here is a copy of the email between you two proving that there has been contact" then they go off about how you are snooping,crazy, possesive etc. Then you respond: "you need to move out until you can decide who you want to be with, I love you and I want you here, but not like this." </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I completely agree. This would be a perfect scenario for me to use the information to try to elicit a positive response. But the right time to do it would probably be when I'm ready to go to plan B, when we've exhausted the chance at reaching recovery with Steve. Problem is, it's hard to tell WHEN that is, and it's hard to control my emotions about this sometimes. But I've gotten a lot better at this. as it is, I now have A LOT of information about her activities that I've discovered and kept to myself, and it has not driven me nuts! So I guess I am progressing for myself, and I am detaching...so that's good.<p>[ May 25, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]<p>[ May 25, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

Spacecase's Book List - Recommended Reading:<p>UPDATED 05/27<p>My "Affair Bibles" (please don't take offense, The Bible is THE BIBLE, and will always be first. Albeit, in my case, the Old Testament, 5 Books of Moses, Torah, whatever you choose to call it.)<p>1. Surviving an Affair - Harley/Chalmers - Clearly the definitive guidebook to sanity and hope during these turbulent times, and a must-read for anyone on these boards.<p>2. The Divorce Remedy - Weiner-Davis - A close second to SAA, very similar approaches and methods, less structure to the program.<p>3. After the Affair - Abrahms-Spring - Apart from the attempt to connect EVERYTHING to childhood experiences, a very thorough and complete guide with tremendous insight for all involved in an A.<p>Indispensable References<p>1. His Needs-Her Needs - Harley
2. Give & Take - Harley
3. Surviving Infidelity - Subotnik/Harris
4. Divorce Busting - Weiner-Davis
5. Private Lies - Pittman EXCELLENT! This is a must-read for everyone, from every side, involved in an A. Very good insight. In particular, the "Myths About Infidelity", "Guilty Secrets" (about secrets, lying, etc.), "The State of Affairs" (different types of affairs, "Infidelity and Divorce", "The Defects of Romantic Second Marriages", and "When Monogamy Works". Also, and excellent chapter on Infidelity and its effects on children, handling that, etc. Highly recommended. <p>Other Books of Value<p>1. Fighting for Your Marriage - Markman/Stanley/Blumberg
2. Difficult Conversations - Stone/Patton/Heen
3. Conscious Loving - Handricks/Hendricks
4. Change your Life & Everyone in it - Weiner-Davis
5. Money Demons - Forward
6. Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus – Gray (In fact, the whole Venus & Mars series is great)<p>Some I did not like<p>1. When your Lover is Liar - Forward - Very valuable IF you're a betrayed woman (Most of the premises are based on real/perceived gender stereotypes, and for men it's too difficult to discern which could also apply to lying women.)<p>2. Affairs: Emergency Tactics - Rhodes - Very shallow. Only discusses 3 types of As, and attempts to make everything fit within those 3. If yours is precisely one of these, there could be some value to it, but in general, there's much better stuff out there.<p>3. Infidelity - Gough - Again, pretty shallow, author has been a WS and BS, hard to tell what's her personal experience/perception and what's more researched and solid.<p>4. Infidelity: A survival Guide - Lusterman - Way too textbook to be practical, much more of a study of the psychology of affairs. Of value if you're into in-depth psychoanalysis of affairs.<p>5. There were others here, but they were SO bad (IMHO) that they went right back to Half.com for sale!<p>On my reading list<p>1. Torn Asunder - Carter
2. How Could You Do That?! - Schlessinger
3. Love Must Be Tough - Straight Talk - Dobson
4. Codependents' Guide to the Twelve Steps: How to Find the Right Program for You & Apply Each of the Twelve Steps to Your Own Issues
- Melody Beattie
5. Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others & Start Caring for Yourself
- Melody Beattie

Spacecase

Space, add "The Language of Letting Go" by Melody Beattie.<p>It's not a straight through read, so you don't have to wait to finish your other books - its a daily meditation book, with an excellent index of topics if you prefer to just pick a topic and read short blurbs on it.<p>Everyone who has ever gotten it on my recommendation has LOVED it.

Thanks BR, I will.

This weekend marked 9 months since D-Day for me and I guess it's only important because it seems like FOREVER!<p>However, I have to say that overall it appears we are headed in the right direction. My thoughts and some of what I've learned:<p>I wish I'd known about As before I actually needed to. Especially after my Ws first A 14 years ago...<p>Don't do any of what you "feel" you are entitled to do when you first find out. If at all possible, calm down, find out about As, read, educate yourself, and then begin to act. Not before.<p>Look inside yourself very, very carefully and be very honest with yourself about who you are, what you do/did, etc.<p>Be understanding of your WS, as much as you can be.<p>As soon as possible, create an environment where there is trust between you and your WS.<p>Get therapy as soon as you can.<p>Understand that this process is about you, and not about the WS or the OP. (Sounds easy, doesn't it?)<p>If you thought you knew what atience was, and how much you had of it, multiply by 5 for what you're going to need of it.<p>Forget everything you thought you knew about logic and common sense. None of it applies here.<p>As for our progress, I can say that we've stabilized our home life, we haven't fought or argued badly for several months, and some progress has been made in meeting each others' ENs. There are some signs of the fog occasionally lifting, but nothing permanent yet. It has been very hard to communicate about the A, its effects, what it means and feels like, and in general, we have not processed it much at all.
My W has not shown any signs of trusting me more (or enough to talk to me about the A), nor has she shown any signs of understanding that significant behavioral changes must occur if our M is to survive. She has shown a desire to stay in the M, and to work on it, but has not expressed just how she expects or wants this to happen. She has agreed to MC with Steve, we'll see if that lasts after the A is discussed. As far as I know, she continues contact with the OM on a regular basis, and does not yet believe this R is in any way harmful to our R, or wrong in any way.<p>I guess that's a good recap...I think we're making progress, albeit very slow progress, and I feel I am much stonger and much more ready to leave or Plan B if it comes to that.

It has been hard to keep up with your posts (cause there are so many!) so I didn't have all the info. But your reply to my post sounds like you are doing real good. You have a concise plan and direction and you are not going to live in this state forever. That is encouraging to know! <p>Another good book is "Love must be tough" by James Dobson. <p>Didn't you two have a counseling session yesterday? Let us know how that went!!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>It has been hard to keep up with your posts (cause there are so many!) so I didn't have all the info. But your reply to my post sounds like you are doing real good. You have a concise plan and direction and you are not going to live in this state forever. That is encouraging to know! <p>Another good book is "Love must be tough" by James Dobson. <p>Didn't you two have a counseling session yesterday? Let us know how that went!!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>ILuv;
Thanks for your reply...I guess I do post a lot! ;-)<p>The Dobson book is on my reading list...haven't started it yet. Working on Torn Asunder right now.<p>Our session with steve is in about an hour...I'll be sure to post after that with an update.

Update - Session with Steve today.<p>Our "Joint" session with Steve turned out not to be "Joint" but rather my W first, then me.<p>We both had filled out and faxed him ENQs and LBQs, and based on those, he's starting to work with my W on several fronts; Taking responsibility for her actions, working on this obsession she has with her "privacy" (which in my view is just her self-righteous response to the lies and keeping things hidden in light of the numerous times lies have been uncovered), and rebuilding trust.
She also tells him there has been no contact with the OM in some time, which we'll see in a day or two.
Steve is working on getting her to start working on these things, and meeting some of my ENs.
She is to complete several "assignments" he has given her, and we should have another session together within a week or so.<p>If it turns out that contact has indeed ended (which I doubt), then we'd proceed on this path Steve has mapped out, and begin to address each others' EN and LB questionnaires together after the next session.<p>If it turns out contact does continue (as I suspect), then Steve feels we need to address that first, as it evidently is a stumbling block to anything else we do.<p>His suggestion would be to calmly presnt her with the evidence, without LBing or accusations, without expecting an apology or remorse, and just to ask her what she feels she'd like to do about it. Pretty much what I imagined and had in mind.<p>In any case, once I have confirmation either way, Steve and I will talk and decide on the steps to follow.<p>I'm afraid that if it does turn out contact has continued, it's going to be very hard to get her back on the path Steve has in mind, but we'll have to see what transpires. I hate the uncertainty, and I hate risking derailment of the process we've started with Steve, but there's no two ways about it....if contact has continued, it has to be addressed, we can't let it go. If she's lying to him and to me, nothing we do can be beneficial to the R and M until we find out why, and find a way of addressing it...I hope we can.

Space - following Steve's advice won't derail your progress.<p>Your wife has been on the fence and he's getting ready to knock her off it. You'll be out of limbo shortly.<p>Things sometimes have to get worse to get better - kina like lancing a boil (ewww).

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>Space - following Steve's advice won't derail your progress.<p>Your wife has been on the fence and he's getting ready to knock her off it. You'll be out of limbo shortly.<p>Things sometimes have to get worse to get better - kina like lancing a boil (ewww).</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks for the encouragement, BR. I did not mean in any way that it would, rather that we both (Steve and I) see the potential pitfalls we may run into with a "confrontation", but it is inevitable to have it if contact does persist. My hope is that if it does come to a confrontation, we'll be able to get the MCing back on track somehow and continue the process. I'm afraid of that because twice before with MCs, when we touched on the subject of the A, the end, contact, etc. she bailed out of the Counseling....and believe me, I want her off the fence more than anyone! I'm just a little concerned about the outcome since past behavior has been to end the process...I have faith in Steve and I think he's doing a great job with us.

Your in good hands SC.<p>Keep us posted on your progress...whether or not there is contact and whether or not W does assignments. <p>Good luck!

Hi gang Im looking for some help. If you get the time look at my post, in the recovery boards "whatta ya think is this going ok. I appreciate it, thanks will.....we are in the same boat im just doing it longer, and i have ran clean out of patience.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>Your in good hands SC.<p>Keep us posted on your progress...whether or not there is contact and whether or not W does assignments. <p>Good luck!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks ILuv; I know I'm in good hands, and I will keep y'all updated!

Hi SC, Just trying to come into sync with what's going on with you! I hope to see you next week at calif. pizza.. luvnprotect has to wait.. maybe we can get a few others.<p>I am glad things are looking up,. hopefully, and I really hope your wife is being honest.<p>FYI.. my H dropped out of counseling with local mb counselor... or mb versed counselor when confronted aobut no contact and working on drinking issues.. he decided no more counseloing for now... Also when the counselor inferred his leaving was not all my fault.. but both of ours...<p>IE... counselor sd... Oh you just came home all friendly and nice and HONEY Went bezerk on you>?<p>Or did your actions have somethuing to do with her giong bezerk?<p>My h wanted to say I was bezerk, beZerk bezerk and He had nothing to do with how upset I was or my angry actions.. temper tantrums... etc.<p>My h uses my anger/ reaction to his lb's : cheating, drinking, lying, etc ... to say I am NUTS. OH, how strange? <p>After that one simple conversation.. which was simply enlightening.. H decided no more counseling.. but he did get WAY DEPRESSED for a few weeks.. and eventually A #1 ended. He felt VERY WRONG ...a bout what he did.<p>Hugs to you and your kids... take care of them , whi.le Mom is in lala land... <p>TELL US ABOUT STAR WARS... I havent seen it yet. Sorry we missed you last week and I hope we can meet next week friend.<p>HONEY [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Honey:
<strong>Hi SC, Just trying to come into sync with what's going on with you! I hope to see you next week at calif. pizza.. luvnprotect has to wait.. maybe we can get a few others.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hey Honey, thanks for dropping by!
What's going on next week? I haven't heard....<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
I am glad things are looking up,. hopefully, and I really hope your wife is being honest.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, I guess things are moving in the right direction, albeit very, very slowly. It seems like every little gain is so costly! Takes SO much work, concentration, focus, patience...hard to keep up that level of focus for extended periods.<p>Unfortunately, I am not nearly as optimistic as you about my W's honesty...hasn't happened yet, so no reason to believe it suddenly will begin. Especially because it would probably involve other changes in behavior which I have not seen...we'll see.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
FYI.. my H dropped out of counseling with local mb counselor... or mb versed counselor when confronted aobut no contact and working on drinking issues.. he decided no more counseloing for now... Also when the counselor inferred his leaving was not all my fault.. but both of ours...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I know. This is awful...they just cannot face their shortcomings, their own issues and faults...no responsibility for their actions at all. I guess to a certain extent it's understandable in the sense that for so long they have made excuses about their behavior to reduce the guilt and to justify their falling prey to their feelings, have made the BS out to be such a loser to justify it all, that it takes them a lot of time to begin to see things as they really are. My W has dropped out of 2 MCs already...I hope Steve can keep her on-board.<p>I think she's coming around; there have been many small signs, and Steve sounded optimistic after speaking with her this week.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
My h uses my anger/ reaction to his lb's : cheating, drinking, lying, etc ... to say I am NUTS. OH, how strange? </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I know the feeling; my W has insisted from day one that she felt she could not talk to me about her feelings, and much less about the A because of my "reaction" which she fears. Sure, I react badly, sometimes scream, stuff like that, and I can understand some fear (although I've never hit her or thrown things at her or anything like that), but I also feel part of that "fear" is just an excuse.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
After that one simple conversation.. which was simply enlightening.. H decided no more counseling.. but he did get WAY DEPRESSED for a few weeks.. and eventually A #1 ended. He felt VERY WRONG ...a bout what he did.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, AT LEAST there was SOME reaction, right? It's better than none! But boy, I know how painful and slow it seems.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Hugs to you and your kids... take care of them , whi.le Mom is in lala land... </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Kids are actually doing OK. Truthfully, she has never done anything to hurt or neglect them, even in these tough times.<p>I have my little talks with them, let them know how things are going, more or less the gist of the therapy, plans, etc. and they are understanding better now. Also, I have tried very hard to help them understand it's not all mom's fault...I don't want them to feel that either. It's hard, but they are getting it.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>TELL US ABOUT STAR WARS... I havent seen it yet. Sorry we missed you last week and I hope we can meet next week friend.<p>HONEY [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Star Wars was GREAT!!! I am a major fan, ever since opening day of the original Star Wars in '77 (I think) in San Francisco, when I took my little brother to see it...just love those films!<p>[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

I started a side-thread about MB and Codependency, since that has come up repeatedly in this thread. Perhaps some of you will take a look there and comment...<p>MB vs. Co-dependency? What's up with that?

All I can say is...WOW!!!!<p>Y'all aren't going to believe this, I can hardly believe it myself, but here's what happened:<p>Today, after about 4 weeks of not having our "weekly lunch" (The weekly chat my WW and I had agreed on having so she wouldn't feel like I wanted to talk about this ALL the time, and I would feel that we did talk about it some) we went out to lunch and had a very interesting talk. I'd already been a bit surprised when SHE came to me a couple of days ago and said she wanted to talk to me; that's the very first time that has happened since dday.<p>Anyway, we sat down, got some nice lunch and she started off by saying; "How are you feeling? are you doing OK?" and I said "yes, I'm doing alright". Then she says; "you know, I really like Steve (Harley) he's a very nice guy and he's said some very interesting things that got me to thinking, and I really think he's got some very valid points, and a perspective I hadn't thought about before. At first I thought this phone thing was a little weird, but now I see it's really good, and I like him. I hope we can continue to afford him." and I said "we'll continue to afford him. We have to."<p>Then she says "I've been thinking a lot about this, and there are a couple of things I want to say to you. First of all, I want you to know that although what happened happened because of so many things that were wrong in our relationship for so long, I want you to know that I take responsibility for what I did. I know it was my decision to do it, and it was wrong, but it is my responsibility. I also want you to know that I never meant to hurt you, and I realize how very deeply this has hurt you, and I'm sorry. I love you and I'm very sorry I hurt you in this way."<p>At this point, my jaw had probably dropped, but who knows? I was so floored that nothing came out of my mouth. My eyes were tearing up; fortunately we were at an outside cafe and my dark glasses were on.<p>Then she went on "I know that so many things have been wrong in our relationship for so long, and I know it's not anyone's fault. We both lost sight of this, and we both let them happen. I love you and I'm sorry we let these things happen to us. But I want you to know that I now realize many things, I'm beginning to see many things differently, and I want you to know that the loving, care, and affection you have given me during these last few months have helped me so, so much. Thank you for doing that, and thank you for being patient with me."<p>By now, obviously, the tears are coming down past the sunglasses, and she hugs me and cleans them off with a napkin, and says; "I love you SO much."<p>Then she says "I know we're going to have a lot of work ahead of us, and there are many things we're going to need to learn and un-learn, but I think I now see the light at the end of the tunnel. Do you?" and I said I did...not quite sure what else was coming or what else to say...she then goes on and says; "I think Steve has a very good program and it makes sense, and I especially like that he seems willing to work with us, to change and modify things. A program that is not so rigid and inflexible; because sometimes these things are very hard, and I don't know if we can do all of them."<p>I agreed, and went on to tell her about some of the things I've learned, and the things I now understand that I didn't before, and how we would have to really create a new relationship, and that I thought these basic premises Steve espoused were a very good basis for that. That I knew it'd be hard, but that if both of us were willing and committed, I thought we could do it and create a wonderful relationship again. She agreed, and said she was willing to do it.<p>She said she was sorry that this had to happen this way, but that in a way she was looking at the positive side, that becasue of this we'd realized how wrong our R was and that she was glad at least for that. That she was sorry the changes had come because of this and not on their own, but that what was important was that we'd realized it and were now willing to work on them.<p>By now I guess I was breathing again, at least I think so, and I hugged her and kissed her, and told her she really was the love of my life, and how sorry I was that we'd lost sight of this and had let life get in the way. That I was here because I believed that to be true, and that I now understood so many, many things that I'd not known before, and how this was what I wanted for us. I told her that I wanted to make her happy, and wanted her to make me happy, that I wanted to see joy in her face again when I came home. She kissed me and said "you too". <p>Then I asked her if she'd still been reading "Fall in Love, Stay in Love" (which she started) and she said she hadn't becasue she was working on finishing another book, one about sexual satisfaction, and that she was working on that because she thought that was important too. I said I agreed, and that I was glad about that because I knew she'd been unhappy with our love life, and I wanted so much to see her enjoty it as much as I did. She said she knew that, and that we just needed to keep working on it.<p>Then I said to her "I know I've said this before, but I want to say it again, because I want to make sure you know it. I know that this relationship with the OM fulfilled some needs for you, and I understand this. I also know that it will be hard for you to lose it, but I want you to know that I understand, and I want to help you with that, and I want to be there for you. So if you feel sad or lonely, please talk to me about it; I'll be there to help you, and there's other people who are also willing to help you, wnat to help you, so if you feel the need, please let me know."<p>There's probably more, but my mind is racing and I don't remember...but in the car coming home she talked about Steve asking about the conditionality of love, and that she'd answered that she though it was unconditional, and how he'd made her realize it was totally conditional...I told her he'd done the same with me, and that I was glad we were both learning about this, and that I was glad she liked him and saw that this could help us.<p>WOW again! I almost don't know what to say. This is amazing, unexpected, unbelieveable...I guess I have to say that this is the biggest fog-lifting I have yet seen and I'm just starting to process it. I have no idea if it's real, if it'll stick, or for how long....but I know it feels very good! And I want to feel it for now. I hope it stays for a while....like forever!<p>So; let's see what we've got here. A major fog-lifting, perhaps the first solid glimpse of my W coming back from la-la land...and saying things I didn't think I'd hear for a long time. I know I have to temper my expectations, and I do, but this is a good moment in a difficult time, and it's good while it lasts. So I'll enjoy it! <p>Of course we did not talk about the OM, or when/if it has ended, or anything like that...too soon for that, but it does show she is beginning to trust me again, and beginning to believe it may be possible for our M to work and to be happy in it. And it sure shows Steve's effectiveness...I hesitate to place too much credit in my Plan A, although it clearly is a contributing factor.<p>So what now? This is an extrememely positive development, and I hope it lasts. I'll be cautious, as we all know how rapidly these things can change. And I've yet to get the information I am waiting for regarding contact, so it'll now be a chance to verify if what she's saying can be believed, or how we deal with that. But, for now, I'll take this positive development and enjoy it!!! ;-)

Hi SC!
I'm so happy for you! What a wonderful day!!! Woopie!<p>Just keep doing what you're doing. You're doing great. Try not to focus on the OM, bc really this is all about you and your W. If you can do that, she'll bring up the OM when she's ready to do so. Be with her whenever you have the opportunity...without smothering her. I just love it when my H wants to do stuff with me that he didn't normally do with me...like go to the grocery store or run errands. In one of your messages you mentioned that you use to travel a lot. So she got used to her space and getting along on her own. I think that she really missed you and wished you were there but you couldn't be, so instead of acheing for you she filled the emptiness with other friends and eventually the OM. <p>Hang in there! I am so happy for you...this is major progress.<p>Have a wonderful weekend!<p>Your friend,
AS