Just checkin' in on ya to see if you have figured out what you will do when he calls again...<p>What if you just go down the list of all possible reasons he could call and write down your thought-out responses so you can be ready and not get off-track.<p>e.g., Distress call? What is your response?<p>Panic call?<p>Missing You call?<p>Can I Visit You call?<p>Need A Favor call?<p>Need Your Opinion call?<p>I think you should plan ahead what your responses will be and make notes to yourself why or why not you can or cannot comply. Then just be a broken record.<p>Sometimes we make our plans but emotions get tangled in there in the heat of the moment, but because Plan A and Plan B are about YOU for right now, probably this would be a good way to approach your ex. Maybe?

Faith - I think Bin has a terrific idea. It is TOO easy to get sucked into a conversation that will do more harm than good.<p>I think JD has a valid question regarding, "How will you know?" This is true for every Plan B, not just those transitioning through divorce. A divorce is essentially paperwork - at most just resetting the starting point. Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating that betrayed divorcees should necessarily have re-marriage as a goal - but a civil relationship of some sorts, if desired, is definitely possible and beneficial when kids are involved. So, IMHO, you "know" when the accumulation of evidence indicates a sea change. The evidence comes from the types of interaction you've already had. Don't seek it out. If it's real, he'll communicate it to you somehow. My fear is that, like others, he'll waffle and teeter and put you back on the 'coaster if you're not careful. But, then again, who am I to speculate? - I haven't been where you are.<p>Dave

Bin and WAT, thank you. Yes, I will work on those responses so that I can be prepared for the next phone call. I will work on those and probably post them. I want to review the 180 thingee's also when thinking about all that (thanks for reminding me JD). <p>OK, I thought I'd remembered seeing a thread on Notable Posts about the "end of Plan B". This is not exactly what I was looking for - not exactly answering JD's question (about what to look for in the WS), but I'm gonna paste some things here that stood out to me (for ME, or whomever else is interested). After all, Plan B is for US, not the WS.<p>YOU ALL GAVE ME THIS SAME ADVICE IN MANY DIFFERENT WORDS. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] - -> YES - I need to remain in Plan B. For me. I still have work to do on acceptance and learning for ME.<p>the end of Plan B

(Selected parts from that link)
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
So what about the end of Plan B?...<p>Obviously... if one of the goals of Plan B (forcing our S's ENs to be met by the OP) reaches its desired result... the WS will return...
...and the normal push toward recovery starts...<p>But for some in Plan B (and a few in Plan A)... this travel into recovery does not occur.
We are told... and I plug this as much as anyone... we are to reach a state of ("near Nirvana") where we can move on...<p>...but there comes a point (or several points) along this roller coaster ride... a conflicting scenario...<p>Plan B (in the standard letter) says... "we are saving what little love (in our Love Banks) we have for our spouses"...
...but then... in time... we're expected to ...move on...<p>...clearly to do this... that now infamous "no contact"... (or extended long distance Plan A)... itself leads to a slow drain of that precious love... and periodically we reach anxiety points when we sense the loss... and the start of a new journey.<p>All through Plan B (and Plan A as well) we all say...
....this is a time of growth...
....it gives you time to better learn the skills of marital success...
....it let's you re-find your direction
...... thrown off stride by your unrepentant and/or unforgiving spouse...<p>But even though we can never reach the fullness of these skills alone
...and work at the skills without human interaction (maybe a partner)....
...through which we practice and hone those skills...
...is there merit to the learning of these skills?<p>Those marital skills...
...after all...
...are skills of all human relationships...<p>The rule of protection... after all... is to protect anyone from our inevitable failings
The rule of care... after all... is to care for... to love our neighbor as ourselves... even our enemies
The rule of honesty... after all... is a desire to have honesty shown us... by everyone... to not bear false witness
The rule of time... after all... is to give of ourselves the most valuable of all human resources...
...since in the end... that is what we really lose out on...<p>So back to... "when/how does Plan B end?"...<p>There comes a time....
...and you're enlightened... in the reality that your spouse has left...
...left in a way deeper than not being physically close...
...left in a way deeper than losing their own faith/mind/spirit...
...left in a way deeper than just a filing or completing of a divorce.<p>A divorce is not the end of Plan B.
The signed document isn't a testimony... just a decree of entering a transition!<p>The end comes in knowing... both...
1. You have learned all of the 4 rules of "human" relationships
...and...
2. You have an "acceptance"... of a new journey in your life.<p>Both must happen... not just one... or the other.<p>We, most likely, know if we learned those rules...
...like everything we learn in life... it is made better only by practice...
...our learning will be imperfect... and that is OK...
...as long as we can persevere...
...and it is under our control!
...failure leads us to hurtful(rebound) relationships
...success leads us to wisdom... and healthy relationships<p>What is decided as a new journey is up to us...
...it could be a new relationship leading to marriage
...it could be as a life as a single
both are valid vocations...
...aided mostly by how we have learned in "building good relationships"...<p>In my mind...
...when you know your on that new journey...
...that is... when the Plan B ends.<p>NSR
<hr></blockquote><p>*
*
*<p>Maybe this can also help someone else - I don't know. Mostly, it helps me, and thanks for listening. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

thanks for the post...it helped me too, as I keep wanting to switch gears.... it does look as if the ws does need to pursue you back if anything is to be reconciled..he will have to earn you back. Hugs, H If he really wants the M, make him earn it! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

The wings of a butterfly ....
Patience, tiptoe and move very qwietly, skill and endurance will receive ....<p>Patience my dear but 'ready' your bloody net to snatch him up. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

continued...<p>Health is failing?<p>Needs a full-time nurse?<p>Wants a date? (or SEX?)<p>Just wanted to hear your voice? & sort of "hold you hostage" on the phone when you have things to do: like post to us!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Beeeee prepared! Be a broken record for his smooth talking. Focus on YOUR plan...<p>Like carolkh said, when she got her WS back, she wanted him 100% back, not still in a state of confusion.

BIN - You are like Santa Claus. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I forget where you are, but you're always posting in the middle of the night (for me). Every morning I look forward to seeing what gifts you have left under the MB tree [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . <p>Thank you for the list. ok ok .. I'm being stubborn. I will work on those responses. I promise. I love to plan ahead, but when it's something I'm confused or uncomfortable about, I love to procrastinate [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] .

I'm in Southern CA on the night shift. Posting, reading, and printing MB between tasks. Sometimes it takes me a while to respond because I will take stuff home and read it and think about it.<p>I just don't want ex-WS to catch you off guard. They are good at reeling the BS back in with their smooth talking. Cuz they KNOW how much you love(d) them and want(ed) them. They KNOW you would take them back in a heartbeat, regardless of their (POSSIBLY SELFISH) motives. Just make sure it IS what you want, too.<p>If you have doubts, then don't agree to anything. Even if you WANT to say yes out of weak emotions, give yourself time to think about it and make the right decision for you. Even if you are unsure, just don't agree to any hasty decisions. Don't let him push you into anything with high hopes again only to have him change his mind halfway downstream. I hated when he did that to you before...<p>Maybe this should be embedded in your vocabulary: "Well, I'm not quite ready to make a decision on that yet. Let me think about it and get back to you." Then make him wait for 2 weeks! (kidding)<p>But you know how he strung you along and it was SO UNFAIR. I just don't think it is fair when the BS LOVES the WS SO MUCH and will wait FOREVER for the WS to make up their minds, and then the WS winds up taking the BS through so many changes because they are so confused!!<p>It's like WS says, "Okay, I'm still not sure if I want to dump you yet, just let me wait and see?" I'm sure it is not really like that for the WS, but that is what it seems like to me on the outside looking in. So the BS is supposed to tread water while they wait for the WS to decide how they feel that moment. *sigh*<p>It's just so frustrating.<p>But anyways, my thoughts about your specific situation is that you have no obligations to this person and I'm sure you realize that. So, therefore, you have permission to just say no and not feel any guilt whatsoever. No matter what he wants or why. LOVE YOU, GIRL! Hang in there!

Ooo! I just had a thought. Wonder how he would react if he asked for a favor and you said, "Nope. Can't do that. Gotta go, BYE!" Click.<p>I bet that would knock him off his rocker! Literally...<p>Oh, I KNOW you don't have that in you, but still, you don't even owe this person any explanations or reasons for your decisions anymore. He forfeited his right to that information when he decided to walk out of your life.<p>OR, what if you had a guy record a message on your answer machine saying, "You have reached XXX-XXX-XXXX. No one can come to the phone right now, please leave a message." BEEP! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Wonder how he would respond to that! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Oh well, just something to make you smile... I know I did thinking about it. And I also know it's easy for me to say from where I sit... I know this is not easy for you. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

BIN - I knew I would have another present from you under my MB tree this morning [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . <p>I love your ideas. The funny ones and the serious ones. <p>I'm pretty sure I need to stay away from sarcasm and the "too busy - <click>". It's truly a weakness of mine that I'm trying to overcome (sarcasm, dj's, etc). If he senses those things he will be convinced he did the right thing by divorcing me. But I DO understand your point. It's all in the manner that I do it. <p>his problems: "I'm so sorry for what you are going through right now, and I wish that I could help you. I'm very busy in my life, with work and my family, and I'm focusing on becoming stronger and more independent. You will have to figure this one out yourself. Good luck."<p>His illness: similar, but perhaps, " ... Please let me know if things become serious, and no one else can help you. I know your family is long-distance. I just can't be there - I believe you can make it through this on your own."<p>Wanting a date: "If you'll remember the last letter I gave you, it stated that I can not have a relationship with you as long as Mel is in your life. Lets give this some more time so you can be sure you are through with her. Anyway, I'm not ready to date anyone at this point. I'm very busy in my life, with work and my family, and I'm focusing on becoming stronger and more independent."<p>Before any resuming any regular type of communication, I'll want to see his apartment (and know that it's his ONLY), cell phone records, etc... some type of proof that OW is gone. And I don't mean since the "last 3 days", I mean some TIME for him to be ALONE.<p>Any other requests of his will pretty much get similar responses to these. Basically, variations on the theme: "I hear you. I'm sorry. You're a big boy. I'm focusing on working on myself. Remember the Plan B letter. I don't hate you." <p>What do you think?

Faith - I like your "contingency" answers. Don't know about the cell phone records, though. May suggest too much to him.<p>WAT

k [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . You are probably right. He's just lied so many times about it "being over" with her. He's proven his word means nothing... ya know?<p> [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] the memories of him sitting in the bathroom at home sending test messages to her... when he was home to "work on the marriage" and I came in from working in the yard and seeing him dart in the other room cuz he was on the phone with her... grrrrrr

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>...If he senses those things he will be convinced he did the right thing by divorcing me... </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes... That's something I didn't think of... That's a very good point... See???? You KNOW what you're doing! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You know him better than anyone... including OW!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>
... I just can't be there - I believe you can make it through this on your own..."<p>What do you think?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>OOOOOooooo! That's goooood! You could even add "you and God, you know the Lord never fails us..."<p>Because it sounds to me like although he professed to be a Christian, he was not putting all his eggs in the basket with God. You know, still hanging on to selfish desires and disregarding God's Will, YOU, the marriage vows, church, important stuff like that. To be shacking up with an OW while you are married is just not very Christ-like... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>He might be trying to use YOU as his God-connection. Does that make sense? I have heard one preacher say "Don't run to the phone, run to the throne!" So what I mean is that if he panics and his first reaction is to call Faith1, then he needs to realize something about God--He is with us always! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I really like your ideas. I didn't expect you to list them here, but I think it is good that you did! You can get feedback from the whole crew!