*I* get the physical support. I get the nice house, the nice car, the horse, the
state-of-the-art computer, and the freedom to stay home and take care of the kids and
pursue a career as a novelist. <p>*They* get the emotional support. They get his concern, his care, his protection, even his
bragging about them at parties. It is extremely important to him that they know they are
safe and valued and cared about both personally and professionally, and have nothing to
worry about from anyone as long as he&#8217;s around.<p>Is he cold to me? No - not at home. But when we worked in the same building together,
he flatly refused to touch me or kiss me when we were at work -- or at any work-related
event, even after I&#8217;d quit -- insisting this could &#8220;hurt his career.&#8221; He wasn&#8217;t rude, just
acted like he barely know who I was.<p>At work, he treated me like an arm&#8217;s-length employee and his female co-workers like his
best friends in the world. Of course, these females were more than free to flirt with him
and touch him all they wanted. He couldn&#8217;t make them feel distant, now could he? Oh,
and he had no idea they were flirting anyway. He thought they were just being nice
co-workers.<p>This explains why he can be hugely concerned about protecting his female friend&#8217;s writing
ability at a party, while totally ignoring mine, and why he could not think of missing his
employee&#8217;s wedding -- to the point of not blinking about going there without me -- even
though I am walking around in a state of shock from constantly finding myself in second
place.<p>He is furious and deeply hurt that the physcial support should not be enough. Look at all
he has done for me! And I agree, he has done all that any man could do in giving me nice
things and a nice lifestyle. But he does not seem capable of understanding that a marriage
requires emotional support and emotional protection too, and that it cannot be turned off
and on depending on whether or not you&#8217;re at work -- or if the right people just happen to
be around.<p>He cannot understand that there is nothing more painful on this earth than having to sit
and watch him generously provide this wonderful emotional support and protection for
other females, as he unfailingly does at work and at work-related events, while fully
expecting me to sit back and stay out of the way and just be happy that protecting them
makes *him* feel so happy.<p>His female friends are strictly protected, but I am left wide open and fending for myself
when it comes to emotional support of any kind. I get the physical protection and
support, but they get the emotional protection and support. Am I making sense here?
Does anyone else find themselves in a similar situation?

I feel funny calling you psycho. I certainly can relate to what you're going through though. Thankfully my husband has snapped out of his insanity but he wouldn't take me anywhere with his "friends" and there were females calling him from work and him wanting to go for "coffee" with them. One in particular progressed to the bars which was so humiliating. It still hurts. He has been remorseful and stopped drinking and ended the "friendships" if that's any consolation. I know it's hell while you're going through it. I got called a nagging policing ***** and all sorts of wonderful things. I also got it rubbed in my face about how he pays all the bills which translated into "shut up and mind your own business" I guess. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I left my husband and got my own place and stopped talking to him for almost two months until he came around but at least he did.<p>[ April 13, 2002: Message edited by: roseyhue37 ]</p>

psycho_b I have read this post about 25 times today and I am still in awe. I just asked my H to read it and he said "is that you?" (he doesn't know my user name). I know EXACTLY how you feel and it's not a good feeling at all.<p>They believe that because they give us things, material things, that we should be happy, that we should be content, that we should accept the emotional support they give to other women. It's so hard to deal with. I sympathize with you and I wish I could tell you how to change it but I can't. My H's reply was "why can't you be happy that I love you, that I'm here with you, that I pay all your bills and take care of the girls and we have a good life".<p>Oh if only they could understand that material things aren't as important as feeling we matter to them above anyone else.

Amen! Amen! to the above posts, sisters. I hear ya and can commisserate. Its the same thing when they finally do decide to break off, they still don't want to "hurt" the ow's feelings, while their WIVES are left to feel like sh*t, but the WS just don't see it that way. Must be a different kind of vision they have.
I even ran across a saved chat once where he told one of the EA/OW to call the house anytime, that I wouldn't mind. Geeze, he didn't even tell me this, and I WOULDN"T MIND!!!!!!! Despicable. He was counting that she wouldn't call his bluff, and she didn't.
Once long time ago, before we got married, I called his bluff. We were young and stupid. We were in early 20's and had gone hiking around the abandoned sunken mining stopes around here. There were two pits together, with a thin band of soil between the two cave ins. He asked if we should cross it, and so I said yes. He was so surprised I said yes, so I called his bluff and we did, sitting on the wedge, and schooching across, later realizing what trouble we could have gotten into. We always had this other pit we would rappel down. Good thing the rope never broke as we'd have been in there for good, and good thing that one didnt have water. I can't tell you how many deaths have been connected with these darn pits. They are still eroding big time and have gotten to be a concern near the main roads.
Thus, he knows he has to be careful with me as he knows I will take him if he wants to bluff..

Gosh,
I am in Ahh... This is something I have said to my husband quite a few Times (but we are not in publishing). I have a wonderful life (financially). I have the life that many envy. So why am I om this computer depressed all the time???. Married to a very successful Physician. Top in his field. Envy all that crap. Granted he has not had a PA YET.. but he did have his little EA that led to a RN superviser having to quit (I left home d-day and refused to come back till he left staff of the hosp or she left). Well since he was #1 admitter to the unit she would not have had a job if he had left the hosp, POOR girl. I have turned into a PSYCHO B.... And I dont care. I am attractive, successful (before a stay at home mom), And damn it why does he think he has any different needs than I???. Why does he think he needs all this extra attention and I dont??? why does he think he needs the extra social and I dont???. granted I am blessed to home and have financial freedom. But screw It I would rather be POOR and have someone adore me, and only me. Did not mean to steal your moment, but I feel it, big time. Thanks for sharing yours made me realize I am NOT all by myself.

Hi Ladies ~<p>I can completely understand where you are coming from and yes it sucks.<p>But I'd like to point out that expectations are often premeditated resentments.<p>One of the hard lessons I learned from my H's affair was that physical support WAS his expression of love and committment. And when it went unappreciated by me (I thought it was simply his duty and money wasn't important, yadda yadda) he eventually found someone who was very admiring and very appreciative.<p>He felt his hard work and expressions of love were unappreciated and rejected.<p>Yes, my needs weren't being met either - but when I put the focus on me, and started to take responsiblity for my half of the relationship, I had to humbly acknowledge that I had fallen down on meeting his needs.<p>No it didn't justify his affair. But *I* was wrong too. And that was only PART of my contribution to creating the environment in our relationship that led to his being vulnerable to making that choice.<p>Just some food for thought.

Oh yeah, I got side tracked from my original point about expectations.<p>Just because YOU think and expect love to be expressed in a certain way does NOT mean that your H does too.<p>And if you continue with these kinds of expectations instead of accepting the reality of who your husbands are....you will be disappointed and angry over and over and over again.

BrambleRose,<p>I do understand what you are saying. I have expressed appreciation to him for the material things I have because I know it has not been easy to get them. I have been with this man for over twenty years and when we started out, we had a cheap apartment and a three-hundred-dollar car and precious little else.<p>If he was just the type who wasn't too demonstrative or openly affectionate - some folks just aren't - that would be one thing. My problem is that he give boatloads of emotional support and protection to the attractive single females he works with, absolutely thriving on this, while leaving me to fend for myself as far as emotional support and protection.<p>Our life at home was very good. It's not like he didn't get any admiration or affection from me -- he did. But there is not enough admiration in the world to feed the ego of a man determined to help himself to the free buffet at work -- and keep quiet about it to his wife.<p>hope this clears it up a little - I do hear you.
Psycho_B***h

PB, I also really relate to your post. My H felt unappreciated for the material things he provided for me. It wasn't that I took it for granted, it was a project we were in together, I thought. <p>I understand BrambleRose's point and I definitely needed to have been more aware of my H's need for admiration. But, he needed to be more aware of my need for affection. <p>My H is also the demonstrative type and lavished his attention on other women throughout our marriage, often right in front of me. No affairs, as far as I know, until the current OW who he's been living with for the past 16 months, but I felt more and more unwanted as the years went by. <p>As far as I'm concerned we both made mistakes. I can only change my own behavior. But it still takes two to have a relationship and my H believes that I made all the mistakes and he is blameless and makes sure to call me up and let me know the details of my faults on a regular basis.

No offense but you can possibly understand how this feels unless you experience it. My H is also very demonstrative and supportive of every female he knows except me. I am appreciative for the material things he and I have. Heck I even tell him how nice the yard looks after he cuts the grass. The lawn is his pride and joy and although I couldn't care less about it I know it's important to him and so I tell him.<p>The problem is when I need emotional support and he doesn't notice, yet let one of the women at work break a nail and my H is there telling her it's going to be ok. I remember several years ago at a company party, my H was telling all the ladies how nice they looked - from the 19 year old trainee through the 72 year old book keeper - all the ladies except me. <p>I am not one to need my ego pumped. I don't put much stock in physical beauty but imagine cutting 17 inches off your hair and your spouse doesn't notice. Imagine going from dark auburn to light blonde and your H notices 3 days later. Imagine being totally thoroughly frustrated with a project you're working on and your H can't be bothered because he's "emotionally worn out from work"?!?!?!?<p>The man I married was supportive in every way. The man I'm now married to is worn out from supporting other women emotionally. What part do/should emotions play in a workplace? Who crowned him the king of other women's pain? Isn't something wrong with this picture?

Hi psycho ~<p>I *do* understand where you are coming from. <p>But you do want to be in recovery, right?<p>You aren't going to get there by focusing on what he isn't doing for you. <p>I agree, it hurts, and you are completely justified in being angry about it.<p>But as long as you focus on what you aren't getting, instead of what you aren't giving, you are not going to get any closer to recovery.<p>Now, if you don't WANT to recover, and you are explaining WHY you are divorcing your H, I would be the last person to say you should stick around and put up with it.<p>But as long as you are CHOOSING to stay and to fight for your marriage, you can't act like a victim. It's not good for you, your marriage, and it certainly won't impress your husband.<p>It all comes down to the question: Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?

This is another face of what I personally do not understand about "love"...you all are clearly married to men who do not love you (else why would they knowingly starve you to death), they are not stupid, you have all "communicated" your distress, they all have demonstrated capacity for meeting your needs (with ow), these are not children, yet you continue to put up with it, and no doubt claim you love them. IMO dependentcy is not love, is never love, and is what exists when there is deliberate neglect. IMO you are all pretty much married to narcissists, they have "paid" for a housekeeper, parent for their children, schedueler, and sex on demand live in...well you know..... you are kept women, no different than a mistress kept tucked away somewhere. You are paid well, and supposed to keep your mouth shut, and when older, kids raised etc. etc. you will be fired (if lucky retired with a decent pension, but let go none the less). They satisfy their narcissim by chasing ow, and playing the game with them (the same one they got you with in the first place I suspect), they get all this stuff back from the ow that feeds their narcissim, so of course they do it...is this really all that hard to figure out ladies? You are in denial, you think they will "wake" up and love you back....is never going to happen, the patterns are way to clear....yeah maybe if you "leave" you can get em to pay more attention as the "price" they must pay for the needs you do meet, but people capable of real love do not act like your H, they will never love anyone, and at best will only fake it. The anger they express when you try to reel them in is only more validation, there is no reason to be angry at you, they do so just to shut you up. Somehow in the dominance/submissive pre-marital dance you all communicated you would do as told, and now you rock the boat (after they have "provided" for you so well), of course they are angry.<p>Life is not a fairy tale, people with personality disorders rarely change, your marriage will be "good" as long as you give up erxpectations for your emotional needs being met, and realize you are in a contractural marriage...if you won't do that, start down a path now that leads to your recovery and ends in divorce and being free to bond with someone capable of loving you right. If by some miracle your H "changes" along the way, great, just be sure it is real, and not a subterfuge to keep you in the contract....if you find yourself "policing" the changes, and your H pushing the boundaries regularly, why be married? Your stories are so common, women seem to "love" so easily, but is mostly dependentcy far as I can see (judging by the men they supposedly "love"), the only difference for you here is apparently your H at least are economically successful so you have that payoff and en (fs) met well. The good side of this is in a divorce you should do quite well which makes not accepting this a whole lot easier.

by the way I agree with BR, playing the woe is me game gets you nowhere... and if you intend to accept the marriage you are in, then quit bellyacheing, you made the bed, sleep in it. What I don't get is why you are sleeping in that bed. And that answer lies in YOU, not in the dysfunctional men you chose as H.... I wonder if any of you had doubts you ignored, and thought marriage would "cure" them, or you could "fix" them....I suspect all these men sent out clues while dating that you ignored....not chastising you, is what most do, is what I did, but now is time to wake up and smell the roses....and fix or end this travesty of a marriage.

sad_n_lonely <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> <hr></blockquote>"you are kept women, no different than a mistress kept tucked away somewhere."

Funny I never thought about myself as a whore. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] Some people lose their minds temporarily in a marriage. Sometimes if you hang in there things do get better and positive changes are made on both sides<p>[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: roseyhue37 ]</p>

SNL I am probably one of very few people here who thinks you speak with wisdom but on this issue I think you're totally off base. Today I will, however, think about what you have said and try to make sense of how it pertains to my situation.<p>A few points before I leave for the day. I am not a "kept woman". I worked until I couldn't work any more due to a car accident (which by the way, contributed a paltry 1/2 a million to our bank account). Also I didn't ignore signs as you say. The man I fell in love with is still there. He has just pulled away from me emotionally. I don't think he is narcissistic or has a personality disorder. I think he is lost and needs to find himself. One last thing - I have never given my H or anyone else the idea that I am submissive. In fact I might guess that my H's EA stemmed from my strength. He has said that I was "too strong" and he felt I didn't need him. Fact is I don't NEED him but I do love him.<p>As I said, I'll give this more thought today but I clearly think you're in left field on this one.

ok, I was engaging in some hyperbole, but the point is we get stuck in various thought patterns, and wonder why we can't seem to get anywhere. Don't mean to offend anyone, but seriously forget the marriage license, if one accepts a dysfunctional relationship based only on money, what is it exactly? And if one stays in it, what does that mean? Calling it love is just avoidance, I wonder how many "mistresses" love their partner? Clearly being "married" has very real cultural connotations, and religious ones as well (allthough that is a little murkier). But psychologically I see no functional difference in a relationship based on being taken care of in exchange for services...if their is no real emtional connections...and I think one can tell that by looking at the pattern of the marriage. Several of you said something to the effect your H says I take care of you, isn't that enough, and some of you even validate that by referencing that is how some men show love....I have a different opionion, I don't think such things have anything to do with love, they are payment for services rendered. If you are in-love, you will take care of someone for sure, physically, EMOTIONALLY, SPIRITUALLY.... but if you take care of someone physically, that is not love in itself. Make any sense?

tiny, it was kind of a shotgun approach to the topic of men who only provide for physical needs, if the shoe fits wear it, thing. There are lots of marriages here like that, women staying for those reasons, with men incapable or unwilling to actually love, just another variation on settling, quid pro quo. And I wonder why people do it.<p>re your circumstances.<p>td...I think you're totally off base.<p>snl...ok, maybe some clarification is in order. <p>td...A few points before I leave for the day. I am not a "kept woman". I worked until I couldn't work any more due to a car accident (which by the way, contributed a paltry 1/2 a million to our bank account). <p>snl....Hmmm, I guess kept does imply more of a money thing...but I really meant kept for services rendered, I do think many men like having a free life with a wife on the side (if you see my point)...they value the social stability, the housekeeping/childrearing/secretartial/sex on demand benefits, but it is strictly a practical relationship, a quid pro quo, they are not really bonded to, or interested in bonding to the woman....hence all these variations on neglect, be it workaholism, excessive hobbyism, a lively flirting/emotional life with ow, or worse...etc.<p>td...Also I didn't ignore signs as you say. The man I fell in love with is still there. <p>snl...People say this all the time, I don't know what it means. People are not robots, they are what they are all the time, always were (baring organic issues with mental illness I guess). I know people wear masks, and I think most often this means ones spouse worked really hard at presenting an image of who they thought you would like, and you marry the image, the image is even partly true, the better parts....heck no one is purely evil or worthless....but then you marry and the condition of marriage wears away at masks and reveals the complete person, this is who he is td, and wishing anything else is denial IMO. Even if one could pressure someone enought to put their mask back on, and be the person you remember, why would you want this? IMO far better to accept then reality for what it is, and make decisions accordingly.<p>td....He has just pulled away from me emotionally. I don't think he is narcissistic or has a personality disorder. I think he is lost and needs to find himself. <p>snl...This um....wishful thinking, denial talk IMO. People do not get lost, and they do not pull away if they were ever there...we talk in such terms cause it gives us understanding, and hope...the fact is people are what they are, your H is not up to being the man you need (or this would not happen), you can carry him for the rest of your life (and many do just that), or you can rercognize that in-love requires a true egalitarian connection, BOTH fully carrying the marriage, fact is, I see very little of this, more often than not there is a "strong" and a "weak" partner, and the relationship is parent/child emotionally...there is a dance around this, unspoken agreements....and when one feels threatened by it, someone changing the rules, stuff happens. It is a choice tiny, most people live like this, often women, carrying the emotional load of the marriage in return for physical care and companionship...but they are alone, and will always be alone....some make it work, others leave, it is a choice...and that is what I am addressing. Long as the man doesn't expend resources on ow, most will endure the distance, but when they do, the man has broken the rules, what I am asking is why live like this at all.<p>td...One last thing - I have never given my H or anyone else the idea that I am submissive. In fact I might guess that my H's EA stemmed from my strength. He has said that I was "too strong" and he felt I didn't need him. Fact is I don't NEED him but I do love him.<p>...the point is marriages that are not egalitarian are dysfunctional by definition, they can work, if the one carrying it is ok with that, many women are....but if you are not ok with it, and I am not, been the basic source of conflict the entire marriage, then trying to maintain intimacy, when what it really is is caring, extracts an emotional price, and you (like the rest of us in such circumstances) are paying that price....the question is why, are you.<p>This doesn't get discussed much, but I see it as the basis for much unhappiness by many of the women here. Indeed your H may very well have run away cause you are so strong....but the right man, who fits you right would strip all that away tiny, your equal would have effects you can only imagine on you....it is very powerful realizing someone sees right through you, knows who you are in all the hidden places, and chooses you anyways...it is different than settling, much different. <p>Ok, I understand your circumstances, you feel you could leave if you wanted, but you want to fix your H, so are not "kept"....true, if in fact you could leave. The thing about being the caretaker is it becomes habitual, is a flavor of co-dependentcy, and you get manipulated by your H into continuing that role, and staying though you are habitually starved...and you think you "must" take care of H, that he needs you, and you get lost yourself in his unwillingness and/or inability to carry his emotional wieght. And then again maybe I don't know anything at all, maybe everyone is perfectly matched, and marriages just need some sort of little fixing, in which case, I am truly nuts, a sobering thought which crosses my mind from time to time.<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

no offense rosey, and I didn't actually say that word ya know (nor do I think it that way), and I clarified some more in other replies. Clearly being married has certain validating status, I am more interested in the emotional toll, and why women stay in such marriages.<p>rosey...Funny I never thought about myself as a whore. <p>snl...Actually we all are at one time or another, anytime we give up what we want for some other benefit. But I would confine my def of whore to someone who regularly prostitutes themselves for gain (of any kind) to all comers....I don't think you qualify....nor do I think a mistress who remains faithful would qualify either.<p>rosey...Some people lose their minds temporarily in a marriage. Sometimes if you hang in there things do get better and positive changes are made on both sides.<p>snl...I know many think so, and I understand why, I do not think so...I think people do exactly what they want to all the time, and when you forgive their "losing their minds" you are simply accepting less in the marriage.... that is ok, people settle all the time, and even works sometimes, but everything happens for a reason, and everything we (or our spouses) do is revealing of our true natures, and may be cause to reconsider why you are married, and whether you want to be. It is possible too that someone will grow from an experience, but they should be judged on that merit if it is the rationale for staying....They may become an even more desireable partner, but I think that rare.

snl...I know many think so, and I understand why, I do not think so...I think people do exactly what they want to all the time, and when you forgive their "losing their minds" you are simply accepting less in the marriage.... that is ok, people settle all the time, and even works sometimes, but everything happens for a reason, and everything we (or our spouses) do is revealing of our true natures, and may be cause to reconsider why you are married, and whether you want to be. It is possible too that someone will grow from an experience, but they should be judged on that merit if it is the rationale for staying....They may become an even more desireable partner, but I think that rare.<p>roseyhue37...People don't do what they want to all the time, especially if there is an addiction involved. I don't know if you're familiar with alcoholism but this disease definetly does not "reveal our true natures" Everyone has different circumstances. I'm not sure if alcholism would be classified as a "personality disorder" to you but at least they can sober up.
I don't believe forgiving your spouse and staying in your marriage is settling either. What's the point of getting married in the first place if you're not willing to do this?<p>[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: roseyhue37 ]</p>

hmmm addictions?.... something else I don't really believe in....I am in the camp that says we all know what we are doing, and choose it (unless true mental illness is present)...people engage in addictive behaviours cause their is a benefit...if that were not so then the millions of people who quit drinking, or smoking, or drugs cold turkey would not exist...right? We are either responsible for our choices are we aren't, there is no middle ground....can't be, or no one is responsible for anything, they are just addicted, or abused, or whatever (fill in the blank)....we can sympathize with the individual who has poor coping skills, or a genetic proclivity to drink alcohol, or a rotten childhood and poor coping skills, we can even be supportivem, but marriage should not be a place to fix such things, nor does anyone have a moral or ethical obligation to remain in a marriage where the partner is not carrying their weight. Personality disorders, addictions, etc. should not marry anyone, and if they do, expect to be divorced if they do not change in very short order. That is a natural consequence of ones addictive behaviour, it costs you your spouse...sometimes one who would otherwise have never changed will change when that happens, so you have done them a favor. <p>IMO you earn your spouse, by pulling your weight in all areas of the marraige, if you don't it becomes unbalanced and no longer healthy, and their is no reason for anyone to remain in an unhealthy circumstance.... what happens to often is addictive/personality disorder type folks selectively seek out caring resucuer type personalities and marry them, hoping to be taken care of, and realize the benefits of marriage, but not have to return as much...the only defense against these emotional predators is to educate yourself to the manipulation of co-dependentcy so you can heal yourself, and your tendentcy to attract these kinds of people, and leave if you are married to one. This is very hard to overcome, cause what you feel works great in an egalitarian relationship, cause you get the same back....it is just perverted when you are married to an emotional parasite (one who gives back much less than they recieve, or are very "needy" in other words).<p>[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>