Sadlonely, a disease isn't something you believe in or not. It's not up to me to educate you either. Thanks for your input anyways.

you are welcome rosey, but keep in mind then life is a disease, cause it kills you..... I am a rescuer also, and have had to work very hard to change what I came to understand was my own problem, I cannot fix anyone, nor is it my duty to do so....marriage is not about fixing people, but that is what it often ends up being, a lifelong effort to do so, instead of the safe/healthy/nurturing/joyous egalitarian place it should be.... Good luck in your journey, thankfully I have woken up in mine.

snl, you come across as a very articulate and intelligent person. I think your intention is to help. Unfortunetly your motive seems to be to help people get out of their marriages, but we're trying to rebuild here.

let me clarify rosey, my intention is neither to speak specifically to rebuilding or divorceing, but to the mental health of people...the notion rebuilding a marriage is the path to mental health is mistaken, many people are in marriages they should leave...since this board (and really MB in general) clearly allows a full range of discussion many (not just me) encourage people to leave unhealthy situations, there is nothing wrong with divorce it is every bit as healthy as marriage when properly applied. Should the powers that be ever make it clear nothing but MB dialog is allowed, I spect the board would reduce to simply a special interest board with narrow participation. This is more like an intake board, for all comers, so as to let everyone decide what they must do, there is plenty of specific information re MB stuff as needed....further even the harleys tell people to diovrce...so I am not really sure I see your point...surely you don't think everyone trying to rebuild a marriage should be doing so? If that were the case then no one should ever divorce, or be advised thusly....it is more like reality checks, many of these people are beating dead horses, and injuring themselves and their kids in the process, the first decision should not be a kneejerk reaction to save a marriage at all cost, but whether it is worth saving at all, many times it is not.....<p>there are many many abusive, neglectful, hurtful, addictive people out there, and they marry and make life hell for their spouses, they cannot be fixed, if people ask for comment and that is what you see in their circumstance it would be criminal not to voice that opinion, and hopefully open their eyes. This is not just the realm of "professionals" they have their own issues and biases also, all of us are experts at being human beings, so illumination can come from most any place, and many specifically seek all opinions here....How about you, do you only want opinions that validate your decisions, even if someone thinks you might have blinders on? Are you so certain of your perceptions you don't want reality checks from others not biased by being part of your circumstances.....many do, I do...but some don't. For now, the powers that be have not chosen to censor input re divorce, I assume cause they realize it is also part of healing, and as long as people are reasonable in their observations, and don't maybe philosophize too much on why be married at all, and are careful about those in immediate distress, etc. they seem ok with it, letting each take from the comments as they will.<p>In any event, I think marriage is great, and the living circumstance of choice for human beings...but I also think being married in itself adds nothing to ones life, or worse...the marriage has to work, has to be a safe/nurturing/healthy/joyous place....often it is not, and never will be in a particular circumstance....some will be content to put bandaids on it, and reach some semblance of contentment, others want more, they want the deep connections, that is harder, and means one is more likely to divorce cause it requires a greater degree of psychological compatibility....many people cannot, or just will not go that deep...and the conflict between what is acceptable marriage is part of what you see here. Myself I want the depth, just getting by is unacceptable, that is not why I married...so my bias is towards that...that does not make me anti-marriage/pro-divorce it just means I set the bar very high. If people want to set the bar lower that is perfectly ok, I just point out the differences so they are making an informed decision. <p>Many people live in denial, or stuff their emotions really deep, especially in so-so marriages, where there is really no great abuse etc... but that in itself is a slow death for those who want depth, and realizing they will never get it in the marriage they are in, no matter how many "techniques" they try, cause their partner simply does not have the capacity to do so....much like wanting a marriage with a partner whose IQ is 120, thinking it is, marrying, and finding out later it is 100....nothing wrong with them, but you will never have the egalitarian interplay you seek....what then? There are many psychological/emotional traits which have the same issues...when do you say I value a relationship, don't dislike you, just cannot live in a marital arrangement...why is this so bad? It isn't...a marriage should be the enthusiastic, completely free choice (meaning no considerations of anything but what you feel) of BOTH, if not, someone is being used for anothers benefit....the only way a marriage is truly healthy (not an accomodation, or settleing) is when BOTH people want it without reservation. <p>There can be nothing worse, or more harmful to ones well-being than to have to give yourself to someone when you are not being nurtured in return just as much. It makes you an object, something to be used....many feel that here, and don't understand it, I articulate it, and try to empower them to take control of their lives and not settle for less...or if they do, understand the contract type marriage they are in.... To that end following MB is fine, it helps clarify exactly what is going on...including whether YOU even want to continue in the marriage....it gives you a standard to judge your spouse and the marriage by.... the problem is, many apply it, and settle for a spouse who doesn't return it...what then? Hence the suggestions about divorce, applying your increased understanding of life and relationships, and hopefully finding a more eaual relationship. This isn't a game rosey, it is life, and if you choose you can squander it on an unhealthy marriage, the question is why do that? Unfortuenately MB is not concerned with, or equipped to help people assess whether they should or want to be married, they leave that up to each of us, and we hash that out often in this semi-public arena, within reason.... <p>Actually I doubt their is a stauncher supporter of marriage out there, I fully believe (and think I can prove using psycholgical principles) it is the optimum way for humans to live....BUT it has to be the right marriage....and that means the people should fit very closely, most often (because no one teaches us how) we marry the wrong people (meaning neither fit each other very well) for the wrong reasons as well (usually cause we want someone to make us happy, which is the complete opposite of why you should select a mate)...ignoring those facts in assessing what to do when the inevitable marital breakdown occurs would be irresponsible...the goal is healing people, not simply keeping them married...sometimes those are the same, more often they are not IMO.

snl I suppose my point is that since your marriage didn't work out, you seem to want to convince people they are better off ending theirs too. I don't have the talent for alot of psycho babble, but that's the gist of what I get from you.

ok, thanks for the honest appraisal.

Yes, I see SNL stating to almost every post leave the marriage. Vows, mean nothing, commitment means nothing. Where is there ever a height of great expectation of marriage can be wonderful, loving, trying to solve problems together. SNL you seem to want to destroy all marriages, and this forum is for recovering marriages, not breaking down marriages. Yes our marriage is destroyed, needless to say, we know why per the Harleys, you didn't want to do the MB stuff. And now I see that you are trying to find your OW by your cell phone. <p>Marriages, were made and expressed with God in sight. People like you should be shot, nothing is there for life. Play as long as the playing is fun, and throw that person out and move on to the next. So your OW is worth searching for? Remember she has had 2 sexual affairs in her marriage. Remember sex = DISEASE!!! <p>The other thing that disturbs me is every one else seems to be off base, and you seem to have everything perfect. Maybe you should look in the mirror once or twice. <p>These people are here for positive support, not negative support. Quit being so negative.
Physical support comes freely with the emotional support. At the horse show I was at, I heard a husband say he makes a meal once in a great while just to show his W how much he appreciates her, and the hard work she has done. He is not a great cook, but tries and she loves it. Like when I would scratch SNL head, it was out of emotional love for him. I did a physical thing. He loves it, and says his head feels so much better after.
SNL look at what people are asking for. Look at the need there, and start showing compassion please!<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>