My wife had an affair with a man she works with. She has my full trust and I overwhelmingly believe she knows the full extent of all of the realities she was ignoring when this was going on. Because of the way it ended too, she sees him for exactly what he is and what she could have and should have seen all along. In other words, I really don't have to worry about not following the wayward spouse quitting their job rule. Anyway, my dilemna is this. He doesn't know that I know. It could easily be "slipped" to him through any of a number of people that work there if I so chose. I have given it a lot of thought and still can't make up my mind. I am eventually going to make sure his wife knows about this once my wife has the opportunity to leave that company through a better job or not having to work anymore. However, while she is still there, I don't want to make things messy for her by putting him in hot water with his wife which will inevitably find its way into the office and be a big problem for my wife if she was working there still. My wife doesn't want anyone at the office (besides the two people who have kept their mouths shut with superglue for 2.5 years)to know. She is also not in his department so she has no authority over him, in fact, his position is higher than hers and he has been there longer. He has no conscious either as we believe he is involved with someone else now. In other words, he hasn't had to face his wife, family, boss, me, conscious, anything. He has not had to suffer any consequences. That doesn't set well with me at all. I don't see him often and when I do, it is from a distance. However, by letting him in on the fact that I know, he would at least have to be reminded of the fact that he has done something horrible when he saw me and possibly have to face that consequence. Problem is, I don't know how people in his situation think. I have never been in his situation and don't plan on it. As someone who we think is now in another extramarital relationship, he is not a converted man. Therefore, I don't know that he would feel guilt even if he knew that I knew. And if he did know I knew and I wasn't doing anything about it, would he just feel even more like he got away with something. Does it give a man like this an ego boost to know that you know that he had your wife? If so, does he feel like he "won" or got the better of you? If he does, would him knowing that I knew make it an even bigger ego boost because he would know that we were BOTH aware that he "won?" Please elaborate. I will read even the longest post. I really want to understand how the former OM thinks so as to position myself best. One more detail. My wife is an attractive brunette with good proportions who was 28 at the time. He is a balding, middle-aged man who was 47 at the time. She said that she was just so thirsty for attention because of how little she was getting from me at the time and that it was never him but how he made her feel about herself that was the draw. I know from Dr. Harley that she is being true. However, other man thinks he was actually desireable to my wife. Another ego boost that I don't know how to get the message to him about since I am not going to confront him. Any help there?? Please....

Unfortuneately I was the om, however keep in mind these acronyms are not particularly useful, om, ow, bs, op all come in the same wide diversity all human beings come in. Likewise affairs come in all the same flavors marriages do, relationships are relationships, be it infatuation, predation, dependentcy, stupidity, and yes real friendship/love also... also the condition of the marriage varies from totally abusive/dysfunctional (and badly in need of ending) to marginal ones that could go either way, even sometimes ones that work well, and are healthy (but an affair then is very rare). Start considering combinations of troubled marriage, and the proclivities of humans to seek out those who meet their needs and voila..affairs. <p>You could expend a lot of effort trying to analyze the exact nature of your w affair, and the om, but what would be your purpose? Rather instead understand yourself, let your w understand herself, and figure out how to have a healthy marriage if that is what you both freely choose. The only real interest in the om would be to understand what needs he met for your w, and whether he is a danger to you. Getting into a macho contemplation of the issue is childish, and ill-advised. It makes no difference if he had your wife, she is a free human being, as are we all, and made choices having nothing to do with you, is not even your business actually, she is not your property, and the om did nothing to you (assuming your w was a willing participant), you have no beef with him. This is important, any bs who responds in a way that devalues their spouse, makes them property is constructing an unhealthy marriage...I say once more...all of us, every human being is a free sovereign individual and has every right to do as we think best, subject to no ones approval....the momemnt any of us start thinking we have (or should have) control over another's actions, we are in deep trouble..conflict, etc.. There are consequences, one being the bs leaves the ws (or heartache, or std's, or pregnancy, etc.), that is different, cause it is about you and YOUR choices as a free sovereign individual. <p>Having said all that I cannot tell your what the om in your case is like or feeling....the circumstances you describe suggest at the least he was opportunistic, there would be little a 47 yo middleaged guy would have in common with a 28 yo married woman. He may have been predatory, or he may have simply responded to your w comeons, you should not discount the powerful tools a 28 attractive female has to seduce a middleaged man without much sense. He may just be a more or less decent guy who got caught up in the situation too...or he may have taken advantage of a confused young woman who looked to him for guidance and support, nature taking its course. I don't really know how you really can figure this all out, or even need to. Your w has "woken up", has decided to continue on with you, and you two just need to focus on yourselves, lots of work to do. Your only concern need be to assist your w in maintaining no contact should the om bother her.<p>As for me, I was in an emotionally estranged marriage, made friends with ow my age in a similar marriage, a completely different situation than yours.... the friendship became inappropriate with the usual consequences and we parted each to deal with the new realities in our lives...there was no predation, no effort to disrupt marriages (other than the disruption of the interest in each other), and was always a freely made choice of two people who at 50 yo right or wrong are empowered to make their own choices. Knowing what I know now about how difficult it is to have another relationship be the precipitating factor in a marital crisis, would be more proactive in resolving marriage first....as well as understand much better that one cannot really be friends when emotionally available for something more, and in addition if single would avoid developing friends with married women. I don't think I am a bad person, my intentions were honorable, offered my w an immediate divorce on her terms when I fully realized what had happened, and was completely willing to leave the ow alone to deal with her life. One does not have to think ill of the op, or they be reduced to some kind of human trash to end an affair, good people find themselves in very trying circumstances for the right reasons but at the wrong time....I don't think this was the case for the om in your circumstance.<p>The only actual action I think one should always take is to inform the unsuspecting bs of an affair.... as well as some formal statement to the op of no contact if one is committed to reconcilliation. In a work situation, I dunno, guess it depends on circumstances, but the criteria is the well-being of your ws....don't worry much about other repercussions....like om getting fired or some such. I suggest once more do not obsess over om, had nothing to do with you, and any energy spent on this detracts from your personal and marital recovery...no one appointed you judge or jury etc.... obsessing over the op is fairly common amongst bs, but is not healthy or helpful, it would be good for you to work on not doing it.

Thanks for the reply. Let me clarify a few things because it sounds to me like, even though I made a long post, it still left some questions. Wife and I have been reunited with great success for about a year and two months now. Very happy. I spend very little time thinking of OM but when I see him and I know he is now in yet another relationship and that he had been in others before, it lets me know he is a serial affairee and needs to face consequences or is going to continue to hurt people and make it more difficult for wife and kids to accept him should she ever find out. Also, my use of the word "had" was not to say he took possession of her and I lost possession of her but was a substitution for other sexual slang terms that were worse such as "bagged" or "f$%^d", again trying to understand what the male ego of someone acting reckless like this would think. I can almost guarantee his thoughts aren't wholesome. Therefore, the sermon on property was, unfortunately, not applicable or particularly helpful. By the way, I don't know if it is a way to assuage guilt on your part and I don't know your religious persuasions or what your particular vows were but when you get married your sexuality, intimacy, "one flesh relationship" now "belongs" to your spouse and your spouse's belongs to you. My wife and I BOTH believe that she did not have the right to give that away just like we believe that I don't have the right to give it away even though I have now been betrayed. Don't most people promise to "forsake all others" when they marry? Doesn't that mean therefore that you have willingly given up the "right" to choose others for the life of your marriage? Isn't that why affairs happen in secret because people are aware that they gave up that "right?" Just food for thought.

I was responding to what you wrote, and most of it was about the om, hence my focus. It does sound like he is a serial affairee, and should be exposed...what I was saying is whatever you are vesting in the om, don't. As for "had" you did say what you meant, you are angry he experienced your w sexually, that is a property orientation, I am saying that is irrelevant, and your feelings over this are possesion based, despite your phrasing it as an interest in om mindset...why else would you care then? It is not irrelevant that it happened, the why is important, but that it physically happened is now meaningless....people, and especially men obsess over this, it is not helpful IMO, and reveals the possesive mindset of those who do, not a good quality.... bodies are just bodies, makes no difference..... but I understand this is all primal stuff, hardwired so to speak for many good reasons actually...but marriage is not an instictual activity, we are not hardwired for it (the opposite actually), so to do the marriage right one must overide those primal issues. As for the male ego, come on, you are male you understand the male ego as well as any other male. I suspect you experienced at least some sexual pursuit of women before your marriage, that does not change cause you are married, but it does get modified if you bond right. <p>This om pursued your w cause she LET him, encouraged him....it would have been nice had the om had enough self-respect to not be open to casual sex, but many are not....so your w became a typical conquest repeated millions of times daily by married and unmarried alike. It would also have been nice had he realized she was not pursuing him honorably (with intent to marry, leaveing you), that she preferred the marriage to you, but that is much more difficult to assess, many times the op think the ws really does want a relationship with them....also he should have been emotionally estranged also, and leaveing his marriage, which it does not sound like he is. IMO once is possibly a mistake, there is a lot of confusion that leads to affair behaviour...but after that, maybe the marriage should end, maybe not if it can be fixed...but a second one pretty much says it is over, something is fundamentally wrong, and it sounds like this guy is bad news, serial affair folks are essentially predators, and should not be married to anyone.<p>dft....My wife and I BOTH believe that she did not have the right to give that away just like we believe that I don't have the right to give it away even though I have now been betrayed. <p>snl..I am not going to enter a philosophic discussion about this, I understand your mindset, and this has been hashed out much in the past here by myself and others....but the fact is she does have the right (and believed she did cause she acted on it, no one made her), it is called freewill, and self-determination. You are speaking to "choosing" not too, has nothing to do with right....every human being has the "right" to do anything they want to (who is going to stop them?), the check/balance is the consequences for so doing, and whether they accept those consequences. I personally find ignoring that reality, and trying to "impose" our will on each other (including vows, which always fail 100% of the time, no marriage follows vows to perfection, so they gaurantee nothing) using notions of right is manipulative, and will always fail.....what is far more valuable is understanding why people do what they do, and working with that. If people fit well enough in marriage, there will be no affairs...ever...and if they don't maybe should consider not being married. For the most part people do a poor job of mate selection, and affairs are the inevitable consequence because people will surive emotionally and psychologically. Ideally they would leave the marriage first, but for many reasons that doesn't happen...affairs (among other reasons) are how people communicate a marriage is not working.<p>She had the right and did it (gave "it" away) the sooner you stop thinking in terms of rights and vows the more likely you will successfully focus on whether and how to have a marriage where she (and you) would not make such a choice in the future. This may make you a little angry, it has others, but my goal here is to disabuse folks of notions that do not work in human relations, and suggest you focus on the realities of human psychology. <p>dft...Don't most people promise to "forsake all others" when they marry? Doesn't that mean therefore that you have willingly given up the "right" to choose others for the life of your marriage? <p>snl...Yes it does mean you gave up the "right" to do so and expect your spouse to approve....it does not mean you excised from your psyche the capacity to do so.... At best it is a promise to not betray your spouse, that is a choice, but it can never be a promise to love your spouse, you cannot gaurantee feelings, bonding, oneflesh etc...these are all in the realm of psychological fit, and the repercussions when people do not fit well enough to bond (for many reasons). Many think this is not true, love is only a decison, and denying ones feelings/emotions is part of love...they are completely wrong (and many live in loveless, neglectful marriages trying to convince themselves they are happy), and one has but to simply look around you to see that. Humans function at 2 levels, one rationally (vows) and one emtionally (psychological health, etc.) both have to be in harmony for in-love to occur, we can live in denial, etc, rationally, and decide to love anyone, even someone clearly unhealthy for us...but emotions always tell us the truth about ourselves, and must be considered also if we are to be healthy. Some think we can control and program our emotions (behaviour modification), they are wrong, never works, but can lead to superficial acceptable outcomes, while extracting a very real price from the individual.<p>People aren't really much into self-introspection, and/or proactive living...preferring the quick fix, or go with the flow, vows appeal to people cause it negates the need to do the premarital homework, just get into the marriage, make the vows, and live happily ever after.... as you, and pretty much most married people, come to discover, vows mean nothing, gaurantee nothing, and are more harmful (cause of all the expectations they pile on people, and expectations are resentments just waiting to blossom) than helpful....at best they are a statement of intention, willingness to at least treat spouse with a modicum of caring and honesty....but whether a marriage will work or not will not be found in having made vows, it will be found in how the people fit....if they don't fit well, no vow will keep them together....nor should it...would you accept your wife telling you she does not want to be married, but will live with you forever, follow whatever script of behaviour you require, only cause she promised to do so? I have asked that question many times, no one has said they want to be loved that way....ergo, vows are meaningless...cause we all want love to be more than a dutiful choice...<p>dft...Isn't that why affairs happen in secret because people are aware that they gave up that "right?" Just food for thought.<p>snl...They happen in secret cause the individuals know people would interfere in this exercise of freewill. That is why we all keep secrets, that is why YOU keep secrets, and do not tell everyone everything about you, you do not want interference in your choices (that is what the notion of privacy is all about), not really all that complicated, and affairs are no different in this regard.....people try to express affairs as some sort of awful deviant behaviour...when in fact it is normal human behaviour, the same behaviour that got you married in the first place. Affairs only exist cause people make poor marital decisions...with sufficient knowledge of psychology pretty much all affairs could be predicted ahead of time...they arise out of the individual psychology of the people, and the dysfunction of the marital choice. Marriage is an artificial construct, just taking out the license doesn't change anything....one doesn't even have to be married for exclusivity, people cheat on bf/gf all the time, engaged people cheat....it is nothing more that a public affirmation that 2 people are attempting to bond, or in religious terms become oneflesh, simply saying so does not make it happen...anymore than saying you can fly empowers you to flap your arms and soar. <p>The mergeing of w human beings into one (for those who want this, actually many married people do not, they just want accomodation, and safe sex, marriage means different things to different people) is a complex process and doesn't happen all that often (mostly cause people won't do the work required to properly assess themself and a prospective mate, so choose poorly).<p>You have found me in my sometimes philosophic mode about how all this works....for the most part I have come to understand people really don't care about this stuff, most are manipulative to one degree or another, and feel ownership of their spouse, feel they are "owed" various behaviours yada yada...and will not take ownership of the truth, preferring instead to live contracturally (vows, promises, you meet my needs, I will meet yours. etc. etc.)...that is ok, freewill and all....but there are other ways to be married, they can only be experienced if you have a high degree of fit....one of the characteristics is a complete lack of expectation re your spouse (in terms of their choices to stay or leave you)....if they cleave to you that is ok, and if they don't that is ok too.... by removing manipulation from the mix, other desireable things happen...but humans are controllers, we all are, it is how we survive, and giving up control is very very hard to do.<p>So anyways if the property sermon was uneeded, by all means ignore it, this a limited medium, and posting is somewhat of a buffet approach, use what you want, ignore the rest, right or wrong, life will provide consequences re how well any of us make choices. As for assuageing guilt, I am a rationalist, I don't deal much in guilt, what is done is done, I am far more interested in why, and what to do about it...guilt is a very overrated motivation to do anything.....what it is for is to get your attention, and mine was definitely gotten. What I have learned from this time in my life is much about human relationships, what love is and is not (most of it is dependentcy/manipulation), I know now how people view intimacy ....most settle in some contractural sense, others are focused on a deeper bonding/knowing... neither is right or wrong, just differences arising out of the range of human temperaments. I know many (including me for 30 years) default to thinking the existence of marriage is what is important, not the well-being of the individuals...many will continue their lives that way, I won't...I think the well-being of the individuals is important, and remaining in a stressful attempt at intimacy is more harmful than divorcing (speaking of amicable, caring type of divorce, which if doesn't happen is all the more proof the marriage was not healthy, but possession based). People do not have to be married, no one has to give themself in intimacy to another just because someone wants them to...and when either one does not, or is not a safe place for them, it should end....it has to be a completely free enthusiastic choice by both, everyday, it has to work all the time. I also have learned what being married and ignoring that means, you end up emotionally divorced and married only on paper, and that means you are vulnerable to bonding with someone else, cause that is what people do.<p>Had I known this I would have made different choices. I would have put the marriage into crisis and fixed or ended it before putting myself in emotionally charged circumstances. Further, single or not, I will not let friendships with married women develop if I am not fully connected to spouse, and even then be very observant and fully include spouse. The danger is if it could be more than a friendship it is very hard to stop, humans have strong urges to bond, and will pursue past the marital boundary, best to just not go down that road at all...thinking you can just be friends...maybe, maybe not, but the repercussions are too severe to take the risk.<p>Anyways some here regularly castigate me, and would prefer I grovel on the ground, begging forgiveness from all near and far, according to their standards of course...but IMO that is pointless, I could do it, have no objection, it is just a meaningless exercise. I am sorry I betrayed my w, and I am sorry I disrupted the owh marriage, and had I to do it over again would have conducted my life differently, but no one gets to go back. On the other hand I feel no responsibility for the state of the ow marriage, nor the many contributions my w made to our dysfunctional union...the affair is not ending the marriage, the marriage failed on it's own merits, as will the ow if it does, they also have a long dysfunctional history. The affiar did nothing but rip off the denial I (and ow) were living under, and forced us to reassess our lives. While my timing was off, my intentions and representations were truthful, as were hers....it would have been easier if one of us had been a slimebag predator, rather than two lonely people who saw something in each other...but the marital outcomes would not have changed, I will not settle, is no good for w or me. I can do everything I do for her now as an ex, we have no intimate connections, never really have just pretended/denied like so many, just the habituation of history and children. I stress her, she stresses me, and nothing can change that cause it arises out of who we are. So am I a "typical" om? Who knows, those who think all ws are scum, guess I am...but I think I have learned a great deal, grown alot, and am a better person for the experience....I think that is the silver lining in an affair for bs and ws alike, it is a significant growth opportunity, if one focuses on that, and not on manipulation, anger, coercion, fault, blame, etc. Marriages will survive or not, but that is ok, no one is dieing, life goes on, and can go on well for all parties if they let it do so...no one needs anyone for their well-being, and if one finds a partner and fits them well enough to be in-love, to merge into oneflesh...or even to settle into a safe comfortable lifestyle, then good, but one does not have to do that, or maintain it if it doesn't work. We came into this world alone, and we will leave it alone, who we interact with along the way is important, for many reasons, but it is not the reason we are here, and should not be the basis for our well-being.<p>Sounds like you have gotten to a point in recovery you can do the real work of understanding each other, good luck. Now I have a question for you, what does love mean to you, and why do you "love" your wife?<p>[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Sad and lonely,<p>I have noticed you post quite often in this forum. Since that is true, I think it is best that some things be cleared up for you so you might not continuously pass on inaccuracies or opinions that may not pass the looked at from all angles test. I want to excerpt a couple of your quotes and put in my two cents on the matter.<p>"but the fact is she does have the right (and believed she did cause she acted on it, no one made her), it is called freewill, and self-determination."<p>People do not have the right to do whatever they please. Do you think you have the right to murder someone? You are confusing the capability with the "right." If everyone had the "right" to do whatever they were capable of doing, there would be no need for things like the Bill of Rights and other such legislatural and judicial spellings out of what is and is not "a right." Generally, Americans and most other cultures believe along the lines that you have the "right" to swing your fist unless it hits my chin. When you hurt someone, either directly or indirectly, intentional or accidental, with our without their knowledge, you have left the realm of "rights" and are standing solely at that point on your capabilities.<p>snl...For the most part people do a poor job of mate selection, and affairs are the inevitable consequence because people will surive emotionally and psychologically. Ideally they would leave the marriage first, but for many reasons that doesn't happen...affairs (among other reasons) are how people communicate a marriage is not working.<p>With each passing generation, affairs and divorce rates get higher. Do you contend that we continue to do a poorer and poorer job of "mate selection" or do you believe the ease with which people can (and do) dump their commitments has been the difference? Think about it, what was once scorned publically is now just commonplace...talked about or shown (sometimes even glamourously) on just about every TV show or movie. There are seemingly few consequences to either action...that is until you experience them first hand.<p>snl...Yes it does mean you gave up the "right" to do so and expect your spouse to approve....it does not mean you excised from your psyche the capacity to do so.<p>Twilight zone. You seem to have a grasp of right versus capacity and even used the same wording. Yet before you were on the other side. What gives?<p>snl...but whether a marriage will work or not will not be found in having made vows, it will be found in how the people fit....if they don't fit well, no vow will keep them together....nor should it...would you accept your wife telling you she does not want to be married, but will live with you forever, follow whatever script of behaviour you require, only cause she promised to do so? I have asked that question many times, no one has said they want to be loved that way....ergo, vows are meaningless...cause we all want love to be more than a dutiful choice...<p>I have known many people who have stayed in loveless marriages because they realized that there was more to life than just what they wanted...that life didn't revolve around them. Imagine that, the concept of being willing to press on for the sake of stability for your family and being good on your word. If only there were more. It can be done. It used to happen all the time. Maybe being "chained" by commitments you made seemingly long ago when you thought you were a different person entirely and keeping your word because that is your character will not make the individual happy and there were plenty of unhappy people in our parent's and grandparent's day but society was better served. I have come to find that those who remove divoce and affair from their options work a lot harder on making the marriage work. That is best for everyone involved.<p>snl...They (affairs) happen in secret cause the individuals know people would interfere in this exercise of freewill.<p>Begging your pardon but my contention is that most keep it secret because they don't want to face the consequences or they are ashamed of doing what they know they shouldn't be and don't want it exposed. In other words, I want the good part, forget what my spouse wants or what I promised I would do/not do, and I don't want to have to pay the consequences for it. Affairs...the ultimate selfishness. Sorry, I know you are a former WS but I got in one of those "had to call a spade a spade" type moments.<p>snl...guilt is a very overrated motivation to do anything.....what it is for is to get your attention, and mine was definitely gotten. <p>I agreed with this more than anything else so far. Glad it got your attention. That is what irks me so is that the om in my case has no guilt so his attention has not been gotten.<p>snl...On the other hand I feel no responsibility for the state of the ow marriage, nor the many contributions my w made to our dysfunctional union<p>Good that you let your wife have the responsibility for her parts and you allay yourself of it. However, thinking beyond yourself would have (and should have) meant not inserting yourself in between the other couple as you did. I can say from the other side that you make a decision for many more people than just yourself when you go down that road...people who should have the right to make their own decisions and not have you make them for them<p>snl...Sounds like you have gotten to a point in recovery you can do the real work of understanding each other, good luck. Now I have a question for you, what does love mean to you, and why do you "love" your wife?<p>I have discovered through all of this that love is about selflessness and should be based on the intrinsic worth of the person and NOT for what they can do for you. Love should not be performance based but yet to so many it is. It also has to be based on reality and not on circumstances. At times we are happier with our lives or our partners than at other times. That shouldn't (and really doesn't) mean that when things are good you love them more and when things are bad you love them less. However, that is what makes people start having affairs is because when things aren't good they think they don't love as much. If your "love" fluctuates with your emotions, you don't really love. Love is consistent.