nikko: Thank you for your thoughts. I think I've scared the 'bejeebies' out of my H too. We have quite a few plans that will go down the drain should he move out. If anything, THAT is what's scaring him. He also mentioned how this would be difficult on the boys.<p>Bernzini: I've done research on sexual addiction on the net before. H and I had started on that at the beginning of our recovery. That is when he first admitted to his problems. Obviously, H needs some refreshers. Thank you for that suggestion... I'll talk to him about it this afternoon when the boys are down for their naps. I don't think much of repeating certain steps if we've already been down that path before. That's one of the main reasons why I love this place.. there's always someone to remind you of these things! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You're right in that H is feeling bad about his porn addiction. He says he has been trying, and that in the last month and 1/2 or so, he's only gone to the sites 3 times - and that it's been more of an automatic impulse for him. I'm just upset that I found out by accident (again!) and that he didn't come to me about it first. He says he wouldn't have done that unless things got out of control. I wonder why he would wait for THAT to happen? Not very productive, IMO.<p>Sing: Not much has changed since I last posted last night. H was up until 5am on the computer... and to my surprise, he's been reading MB!!! He and I will definitely need to talk about that one this afternoon too. I'm curious to find out what it is that he's read, and his opinions on it. I also want to know if he's gotten himself an alias and has done any posting.<p>Karen

I think you should think about this a little more before kicking him out. I have been reading here for a long time and this is my first post. I am sure I am going to be blasted simply because of my opinion but it is my opinion. Just because someone likes to look at porn does not mean he has a problem or is addicted to sex! I fail to see how so many people can diagnose your husband as a sex addict and that this is all his problem. Enjoying looking at porn does not qualify in any way someone as an addict. If you can sit there and say you have never caught a glance of some other man simply because he looked good then you would be lying. <p>Many women and men enjoy porn together. That does not make them an addict.<p>I hope you will consider this. I don't think you should compromise your beliefs. But I do think you should consider that he may not have an addiction problem.

LucyB: Thank you for your thoughts. I don't believe anyone will flame you for your feelings and beliefs - I know I sure won't! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I agree with you that for SOME people, looking at porn isn't an issue, and therefore not an addiction. However, for ME, it is one of those things that I cannot stand. When I know about H looking at it, it makes me feel inadequate, because I know that unless I have some major plastic surgery, there's no way in heck that I'll ever look like one of those women he drools over. I know, that's MY issue. However, our MARITAL issue is the amount of time that has been spent on his 'habit'. He definitely has the signs of an addict, and even admits to it.<p>We have been down this path before. I had learned to accept it at one time. And just as Bernzini stated in her story on this thread, it was one small thing that lead to something else, which lead to something more, etc, etc, etc. My H had also set up a videocam and took pictures of himself (not his face) to share with women online. This was all done in secret (again, addictive behaviour), and most importantly to me, took WAY TOO MUCH TIME away from our time together. (so we grew distant from each other, while he made some 'new' friends online... which grew into EA's, and eventually PA's).<p>I hope you don't read any of what I wrote as a flame... because it's not. I really do accept your view on the porn viewing issue. And I'm sure there are many who agree with you (although they may not post about it). Thank you again for sharing. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen

Karen - if he truly wants to work on this before June, can you switch your ISP to one that does in-line filtering? No way should he be surfing at 5 a.m. ...<p>Look for one that uses Xstop with no password for subscriber bypass. I found one in the Yellow Pages, maybe you could look there?<p>This won't stop the laptop-from-a-motel-room access that Bernzini described, but it should stop him from working around blocking or monitoring software on your home computer.<p>I guess another way around ISP filtering, would be him using the 30-day trial dialups that keep coming from AOL and others. Maybe that could be dealt with using phone company logs of local calls that you review. If he dials an ISP that isn't the "approved" one, it would be understood that he's been caught again.<p>Of course he must want to do this. Even assuming he does, he would need some restrictions. You wouldn't let an alcoholic have ready access to booze.<p>It sounds like he hasn't yet comprehended that there are consequences. So I think you are right to move ahead with the June time frame, or even sooner, and stick to it. I simply suggest that you consider doing this ISP thing in parallel.<p>Good luck,<p>Tom

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Hi Topie, My heart broke for you when I saw your thread. I didn't know how to reply because in a way, I was shocked that your H betrayed you with this once again. However, it sounds as if he has many of his own issues to work out. <p>I'm praying for you and your H. I applaud you your strength. Maintain your resolve. <p>How are things tonight?<p>Hugs.

Terrified:<p>Thanks for asking. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Things have smoothed over more. H has changed his attitude and no longer feels that his viewing of porn is a problem. He agrees that yes, it WAS, but that he has made great efforts and is doing so much better. I can't really argue with his words. My issue is that I want it out of our lives completely.<p>A possible breakthrough in one of our conversations on it today though.... H was trying to think of what was on his mind, or what was actually triggering him to go to the porn sites. He chalks it up to boredom. He says that he starts to look up schematics (sp?) for circuitboards and electronics, etc... and gets to feeling down because we don't have the money to buy some of the parts he would like to build so many things, and then ends up at the porn sites.<p>In many ways, he's full of B.S. But then again, I can see his point. H and I really need to do more things for ourselves, by ourselves. We haven't done that in a long time. H adores building things (like electronics), and I'm missing my crafts. So, our solution for the time being, is to work on our hobbies.<p>I haven't come to any conclusions about whether or not I want him out by the first week of June. I really don't know what it is that he can do to prove to me that he's working on things. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Short of looking over his shoulder each time he's on the computer or getting rid of our internet connection (which neither of us want), I'm at somewhat of a loss. As much as I thought the idea of looking for SA support groups for US online was great, now that H doesn't think of the issue as a problem, I'm not sure how that would work as a solution/personal need. I know that doesn't mean I can't do it for myself though. And there is also somewhat of a time issue right now as well. We have certain financial obligations coming up next week, and my decision can alter that decision too.<p>We've got somewhat of a plan in mind right now. We basically need to lay all of our cards out on the table and deal with some issues that have been poisoning our M. IMO, H really needs to learn how to open up more. I was just told this afternoon that he feels that I am always a pessimist to his dreams and ideas. He's felt this way for a long time, according to him, yet today was the first I have heard of it. Of course, MY memory is far different. It's that darn communication thing. We've been relying on our assumptions again, and we've been very wrong. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Lots to do. I don't really want to. But I will should H show more of an interest that lasts longer than a few days in a row. He's a typical passive aggressive personality, and most definitely a conflict avoider. Such fun!! NOT!!! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen

This might be a quick fix: move your PC to the livingroom or any other high traffic area. If it's in a nice quiet, secluded part of the house, then the temptation is greater.<p>If you are a compulsive eater, and you work in a bakery, it's easy to stuff a cookie in your mouth when no one is looking, whether you're hungry or not. (I am not making a true life analogy or anything here--sigh! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>If the PC is where everyone can see what's on the screen, that might make it less easy to sneak over to forbidden territory.<p>I really don't think, Topie, that your husband has an incurable problem. He doesn't seem to NEED porn, like an addict. And you shouldn't take it as a personal insult. It's just fascinating to look at when there's nothing else.<p>Ask him if he would come to an agreement about moving the PC, if he's really that sincere about changing. It helped us--the old PC finally died, so when we got the new one we just put it out in the livingroom. Pretty hard to look at nasty stuff when your kid is sitting there a few feet away watching digimon.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Topie25:
<strong>...it makes me feel inadequate, because I know that unless I have some major plastic surgery, there's no way in heck that I'll ever look like one of those women he drools over. I know, that's MY issue... We have been down this path before...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hmmm... I think it's safe to say it's probably every woman's "issue" to realize we are not our man's "centerfold," so to speak...<p>My H doesn't look at porn, but when I was single, I had plenty of boyfriends who did and it just crushed me because I know what I look like and I know what those beautiful girls all look like. Soooo, I can identify with how this "habit" makes you feel, esp. when it is your H.<p>I also know that my H likes the body-type of Carmen Electra and I will never look like her IN LIFE with all the plastic surgery they've GOT! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It just blesses me, Topie25 that you DO value yourself enough to know when to say "ENOUGH!" I support you on this one. Stick to your plan. Take care of you, first, then the boys! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

Putting the PC in a high-traffic area is good for the kids's use, and I would recommend it. But it won't help much for Dad's use. Not if he's on at 5 a.m.

Just wanted to add, I have had issues first with magazines and then with internet porn with my h .... ever since my first pregnancy over 9 yrs. ago...it has been a slow destruction of my love for him for years.. and break down of trust... thanks for reminding me this will be a big boundary for me if there is re covery to be had.<p>thanks for the topic, I am proud of you girls standing up for yourself.. .internet porn is ruining millions of relationships.<p>H [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

{{{{{{{{{Topie}}}}}}}}}<p>I made a very similar discovery a little over four months ago, and it took me a month to get up the energy to start a thread about it. I was quite simply shattered. Here&#8217;s a hyperlink if you want to know more: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=31&t=005768<p>I have not shared what has happened since, so I suppose now is as good a time as any.<p>Obviously counselling did not get off to a good start. In fact, H never went back to his IC because he lost faith in the IC (as did I) and because he was not getting the help he was asking for (making things better and safer in our M for me and not validating his use of porn). I did continue to see my IC, for a few months, but then I stopped too. Seeing the IC simply was not helping me; it probably was not hurting, but at $140 an hour, being neutral was just not enough.<p>So, three months after the incident and my depression bottoming out again, I was still married to H, still living and co-parenting with him, and still uncertain about what to do. In that time, H had started, but never finished, a book on the use of porn (Silent War: Ministering to Those Trapped in the Deception of Porn). He told me all his &#8216;secrets&#8217;, starting from when his use of porn started to details about what thought processes triggered his use to how his real flesh and blood W fits into the picture of his porn use to what he describes as &#8216;absolutely everything&#8217;. He suggested I re-activate the internet filter that comes with the Internet Explorer software and that I pick the password and not give it to him; I did. He agreed that the computer should stay where it is, in the family room and visible from nearly every room. He suggested that he not use the internet when I was not home, not use it when he was alone anywhere, and also not use it after I had gone to bed. (Of course, there is a rather large exception carved out for his work, which requires access to the internet. He would not agree to my installing a filter on his work computer, but then it is not my responsibility to monitor his conduct. So, we both live with the knowledge that he can easily view porn at his workstation, behind the closed door of his office, but that if he does, the &#8216;three strikes&#8217; policy will likely mean his career will come to an end in a cloud of shame.) He explained that he finally &#8216;got it&#8217;; that even though I had said the words before, been hurt and cried before, that he never really understood how much his use of porn hurt me; maybe it was just denial, he admitted, but seeing me nose-dive into near paralysis after both of us working so hard for months to crawl out of that hole made it impossible to deny what his porn use does, what it destroys, what the real consequences of his problem are. He even admitted that it does change the way the user of porn views women in a general way, at least it did to him; it did make him more sexually callous and selfish, more curious about kinkier sexual practices, and more detached from viewing sexuality as a shared part of a relationship.<p>H did not open up like a faucet, but he did start to share his thoughts, feelings and beliefs about porn, sexuality and his &#8216;privacy&#8217;, in a manner that he simply had not done before. If I brought up the subject, he would actually want to talk about it; sometimes, he even brought it up. The other times I found out about his porn use, he would start by saying he had a problem and then back off and say that there was no real problem, just a harmless habit which I disapproved of. This time, he admitted to having a problem and he stands by that assessment. He sometimes calls it an addiction, but not always, and he will be the first to say that it really does not matter what you call it, clearly his use of porn was a big problem in our M; and since he brought it into our M, it is up to him to keep it out. He &#8216;owns&#8217; the problem now and takes responsibility for fixing it.<p>And, as far as I know, he has not viewed any porn since early January. Then again, it had been six months since the last viewing that I knew about when the January discovery occurred. So, I am by no means counting on H having &#8216;beaten the problem&#8217; or &#8216;broken the habit&#8217;. But, I am still living with him and we are still M. So, I suppose that says something.<p>For my part, I am feeling better. I am not deeply depressed anymore, although I am still struggling with depression. I am also still very detached from H and unwilling to give up the safety of my detachment. I suppose what I am living could be described as a &#8216;holding pattern&#8217;. There is one big change to the pattern, however, and that is that I am not waiting on my H to make decisions and do things in my life. Instead, I decided that I am going to make my life what it needs to be, if I am going to be living alone with our two young children without H in our daily lives. I never ever want to be in a situation again where the discovery of more porn use is going to leave me feeling completely immobile. If there is any other use of porn or any lies about anything, then our M will be over. There will be no more chances for apologies, promises or changes. It will be the end of the line.<p>In order to put myself in a situation where I could send my H out the door, and be able to function, work, parent our children, and continue to put one foot in front of the other without wanting to die, I needed to make some changes, some big changes. As with all tasks of &#8216;cleaning house&#8217;, things are a bigger mess for a while before the dust settles and the cleaning is visible. I am in the center of the dust cloud right now, hoping to see clearly soon.<p>So what does this mean? Here are the details, probably way more than you need to know.<p>When we talked about having outgrown our current house, instead of thinking &#8216;I should wait to see what happens with our M before assuming a big mortgage&#8217;, I looked at the benefits of moving into a house that our children can stay in until they are grown, within minutes from school, close to my workplace, and closer to the core of my support system; I thought how much better it would be for the kids if we were settled into our new home, neighbourhood, and routine before the final determination of whether their father is part of our daily lives or not. Then I needed to figure out whether I could afford a new home on my income alone, in the event that H&#8217;s becomes unavailable to us; and I made some changes to my spending and saving patterns so that I could afford it alone. Finding the right house to buy and listing our current house for sale was surprisingly easy. Of course, a new home would be of no real advantage to the kids or me if I am not healthy enough to enjoy it or to continue to earn the income needed to keep it. So, my mind turned to my health, physical, emotional and mental. The past 20 months have taken a huge toll on me; depression is the biggest issue, but the stress that H&#8217;s A and the fall-out from that in addition to his porn use has also had a big impact on my health. I am probably the least physically healthy that I have been in all my adult years, and I need to get really healthy if I am going to support my family alone. That is my current &#8216;work in progress&#8217; - I am taking two or three weeks off of work, using my holiday time, to rest, to start a routine of healthy living from morning until night, and to get that routine established in a way that I can stick with while working, parenting and just living. I am finally taking the advice that has been given to me by dozens of people, including my IC, our MC, my GP, the specialists, my friends, family, neighbours and even strangers; I am going to take care of myself, first and foremost, and I am going to make it my number 1 priority. Once I get my healthy living routine established, I need to work on my career and being more efficient with the time I spend at the workplace, in addition to making a plan and having goals on this front. This is a career that I spent years in university to build a foundation for, a career I built and nurtured before having children, a career that I really loved and enjoyed, and a career that I have completely neglected in the aftermath of my H&#8217;s A. I want my career back, whether it is the job I have now or another job, I want to feel good about the work I do again; I want to enjoy the time I spend away from my children; I want to feel that there is worth in the hours that I am toiling away in my office rather than in my home. In short, I want my life back.<p>So, what does any of this have to do with my H&#8217;s use of porn and countless lies over the years to cover up his use of porn? What does this have to do with restoring trust in a relationship that has seen the destruction of every shred of it, over and over again? What does any of this have to do with M recovery after a SO&#8217;s A?<p>Well, I guess it finally sunk in that I still exist with or without my M, with or without my H in my daily life. I want to be whole again, and I need to be whole again. Though I probably do not love myself enough to do what it takes to become whole again, I love my children more than enough. I love my children more than life. So, in the more than three months since I thought that my M would surely end and that I could never trust my H again, what I realized is that I don&#8217;t want to wait for my M to be okay before I am okay. I learned that I cannot afford to wait until I know whether this M is going to be okay before I invest in the children and me. At some level, I think that is what I was doing - pouring all my energies into recovering my M, assuming that everything else would follow from that; and I had been doing this for nearly a year and a half. I have come to realize that pouring my energies into me being healthy and whole is what it has to be about; everything else will follow from that... I will be able to parent well and work well, my children will be healthy and happy, and life will be good for us again, with or without H.<p>What does my H think about all this? He completely agrees that it is time to use my energies, his energies and our family&#8217;s resources to heal me. And I have been radically honest about building a life that does not rely on his being a daily part of it.<p>I rather expect that some of this does not accord with MB, but I think it might just work.<p>Topie, I hope you don&#8217;t feel that I have hijacked your thread. I really did want to tell you, in detail, what has helped me. And really that has come down to looking in the mirror and realizing that my children and I need me to be healthy, so that I can be part of their daily lives in a determined and happy way, and they need a healthy me far more than they need for their parents to be together or married. And, who knows? Their parents might end up staying together happily as a result. Stranger things have happened.<p>That&#8217;s my epiphany, such as it is.<p>Hugs and much empathy to you,<p>TAA

Thank you again for the replies. This truly is a touchy issue for so many of us. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>As far as the 'quick fix' goes.... tmmx is right - with the hours that H tends to be online, the position of our pc in the house is irrelevant.<p>I too, am trying to work on myself again. It seems that just as I explain to my H that I will be focusing on ME for the next few months, and not anyone else, this crap (which is what it is to me) resurfaces. I honestly don't want to deal with it. I haven't wanted to deal with it for our entire recovery. It's HIS problem, but b/c it's in OUR M, it's OUR problem too. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] I think I just need a good vent about not having the time I need for "ME"!!!! Today's 2 hours b/c of a dentist appt doesn't really count as 'me' time (even though I joked with the hygenist that that is why I have been making so many appts lately).<p>I want to let the porn issue go. But it's so hard. I've been letting it go for so many times... and that certainly hasn't solved anything.<p>My mindset right now is to just focus on me. Tell H that I want to draw up a written and signed agreement that the next time he does anything involving porn, that he has 'x' days/weeks to get out of our house. I'm an 'in writing' kind of a gal... and I'm honestly forgetting just how many times we've 'talked' about it, and not actually recorded it.<p>I'm tired right now. I think I'll go to bed early. And if I can, I'm going to take a couple of days off from here. I just need that break.<p>I'll start a new thread when I have more figured out, and more accomplished (hopefully!) with my H.<p>Thanks again to everyone for the support. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen

Topie,<p>I hope you are feeling okay and that you will be able to do somethings just for you. I do know how difficult that is, though, especially with the demands of young children.<p>You are right that there is no quick fix. You are also right that porn is not your problem, it has been imposed on you because you married someone who brought it into your M. And it is absolutely okay not to have answers for yourself. Please do not feel that you need to start a thread after you have figured more out. Sometimes it is less about figuring something out and more about a process to getting where you want to go.<p>You know you want porn out of your M, you seem to indicate that you want to be married to your H if that can really happen, and you know you want to recover your M and heal yourself. There are no quick ways to get to any of those goals, and the process is long even without the added challenges.<p>As for letting the porn issue go, I can understand that too. If that is what you do, please make sure you don't leave your boundaries fuzzy. I'm certain that I could have been clearer about my boundaries in the past, and it may or may not have helped to curb H's use of porn. But, it probably would have helped the process, in that I would have been very clear about the boundary one incident earlier; and that can only help to shorten whatever process we need to go through to get 'there', wherever that is.<p>Your idea of writing it down is a good one and having him acknowledge that he has 'heard' you by signing is also good. The one thing I would add is advice often given on MB, to be certain that you are prepared (willing and able) to follow through with whatever the consequence to breaking the boundary is, if that boundary is broken again.<p>You sound strong Topie and that is great. Unlike so many of us, you aren't completely exhausted from the roller-coaster (or at least you don't seem to be). Try to tap into that strength to make a specific plan about H's porn use, including boundary setting and also responsibility taking, accountability, openness, and anything else you need comfort on in relation to this issue. I hope taking a break from here helps you. If not, then just poke your head in here and tell us that you are here.<p>Take care of you, Topie.<p>TAA