I felt I had hijacked psycho_b's thread and decided to start my own. I'll probably catch much flack for this but I spent much time thinking about what you said and sad but true I do agree with a lot of it - God help me.<p>snl - they value the social stability, the housekeeping/childrearing/secretartial/sex on demand benefits, but it is strictly a practical relationship, a quid pro quo, they are not really bonded to, or interested in bonding to the woman....hence all these variations on neglect, be it workaholism, excessive hobbyism, a lively flirting/emotional life with ow, or worse...etc.<p>td - unfortunately SOME men do feel exactly this way. It's unfortunate that there are women who settle for this (myself included) but many confuse love with need and many are just comfortable. I have been comfortable for several years now. Today I see that.<p>snl - this is who he is td, and wishing anything else is denial IMO. Even if one could pressure someone enought to put their mask back on, and be the person you remember, why would you want this? IMO far better to accept then reality for what it is, and make decisions accordingly.<p>td - yes I realize it is who he is, I do suppose I am in some sort of denial because the man I love would never do this to me and this man I'm married to has already done that and more.<p>snl - It is a choice tiny, most people live like this, often women, carrying the emotional load of the marriage in return for physical care and companionship...but they are alone, and will always be alone....some make it work, others leave, it is a choice...and that is what I am addressing. <p>td - yes it is a choice and I'm afraid it's a poor choice. Women are most often, in any relationship, the bearer of the emotional load. It's what we are taught. That doesn't make it right. It's about choices, yes. We chose to nurture as it is in our nature but nurturing doesn't equate love.<p>I can't condone your affair or any other. People are always hurt by an affair, whether emotional or physical, and that in it's self makes it wrong. If people are unhappy in a marriage or any relationship, it's best to end it. Adding another person to the mix does nothing but cause pain - unnecessary pain. <p>snl - And then again maybe I don't know anything at all, maybe everyone is perfectly matched, and marriages just need some sort of little fixing, in which case, I am truly nuts, a sobering thought which crosses my mind from time to time.<p>td - maybe then I am "truly nuts" too. Maybe every marriage is salvageable and maybe I can continue being comfortable and he can continue withholding his emotions from me. Or maybe not - time will tell.<p>Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me. I guess you could say I have had an epiphany.

Unfortunately, this hits on the very quandry several of the relationships of the very important people in my life are going through. I got totally weak last night and had to pray. Everyone everywhere is going through this.<p>Why do people get married if not for love? That is the goal. It's not to have a spouse. It's not just to make a family. It's not to just have a house. The goal is love.<p>I married for love and I won't take anything less from my H. If I get less, I hope for an affair (on his part) so that I have a biblical way out. I do not hope for the other reasons that I would leave for (they would rip me apart in ways I cannot express and they constitute abuse). And I asked my H to consider me enough to tell me if he ever slept with another woman so that I could protect myself. Whether he would in that case or not, I don't know. I know this is all rather naive (seems to be my description today) but my passion is strong. I cannot force my H to love. But, I can convince him (if he's willing) that I am lovable, as I was when we got married.<p>The best thing for men in this position (what appears to be mid-life crisis to me) to do is try to remember what attracted them to their wives in the first place. She must evaluate what she misses and work to change herself and get as close to what she was as she can, or develop equally attractive things, incorporating what she has learned. I don't know how to get a man to listen except by "pulling out the rug" and there are a great many ways to do that, including Plan A and Plan B. Oh, and turning off the tv. or the computer [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] (I guess that would be me). Gotta go.<p>Bye,<p>Hoping

td...I'll probably catch much flack for this but I spent much time thinking about what you said and sad but true I do agree with a lot of it - God help me.<p>snl..well tiny, thing is the truth speaks for itself...and if we can find it, IMO therein lies the path....I am never positive I have it all right, that is why I just put it out there for others to do as they will, and in so doing, I also find my own path....and indeed God does help, and He does it with truth methinks.<p>td - unfortunately SOME men do feel exactly this way. It's unfortunate that there are women who settle for this (myself included) but many confuse love with need and many are just comfortable. I have been comfortable for several years now. Today I see that.<p>snl...Does work both ways, but seems far more often to be a female issue, and it really bemuses me why women settle for insensitive, neglectful men...but it might be cause it is really difficult to find otherwise, and that is sad...I suppose that is why women try so hard to "train" their H to their needs, but in the end I think that is mostly a frustrasting effort, maybe it is a gender thing, maybe enough men are just not up to the emotional bonding women want, maybe that is a flaw in our monogamy model, I dunno.<p>snl - this is who he is td, and wishing anything else is denial IMO. Even if one could pressure someone enought to put their mask back on, and be the person you remember, why would you want this? IMO far better to accept then reality for what it is, and make decisions accordingly.<p>td - yes I realize it is who he is, I do suppose I am in some sort of denial because the man I love would never do this to me and this man I'm married to has already done that and more.<p>......snl....yeah, but the man you loved and the man you married, and the man you live with now are all the same man, just your perception has changed. This is one of the things I will never understand I guess, this intense need to split ones spouse into "different" people. My w says the same about me, but I am the same, I have not changed...what I am is stressed out and unhappy in a marriage that has been far less than nurturing....and maybe, in my own way I have "changed" the mask, I no longer try to make everything work, and that is distressing, but for me it was a healthy and needed change...but I am still me. More often folks try to hide the things they think a prospective spouse won't like, and you become attracted to only part of them, that is a change not so good when you find out the rest that was concealed from you....women do this to of course, it is just part of human nature, we call it putting best foot forward, it really is deciet.<p>snl - It is a choice tiny, most people live like this, often women, carrying the emotional load of the marriage in return for physical care and companionship...but they are alone, and will always be alone....some make it work, others leave, it is a choice...and that is what I am addressing. <p>td - yes it is a choice and I'm afraid it's a poor choice. Women are most often, in any relationship, the bearer of the emotional load. It's what we are taught. That doesn't make it right. It's about choices, yes. We chose to nurture as it is in our nature but nurturing doesn't equate love.<p>......sbl...bingo, nurturing is caring, in-love requires egalitarianism...this is where most get lost far as I can see...they think cause they choose to care, someone else will return the caring, but caring is freely given, it should expect nothing in return....in-love is different, it is freely given too, but it does not work unless it comes back the same way...and therein lies the definition of love IMO...and why many marriages are not love based, just caring based at best....well, you don't have to be married to care about someone, and even meet their needs...so if in-love is not happening...why be married?<p>td...I can't condone your affair or any other. People are always hurt by an affair, whether emotional or physical, and that in it's self makes it wrong.<p>snl...true enough.<p>td...If people are unhappy in a marriage or any relationship, it's best to end it. Adding another person to the mix does nothing but cause pain - unnecessary pain. <p>snl...yep.<p>td - maybe then I am "truly nuts" too. Maybe every marriage is salvageable and maybe I can continue being comfortable and he can continue withholding his emotions from me. Or maybe not - time will tell.<p>snl...I think you are there (understand)...one can settle, the ow told me that, I didn't understand her then, and argued about it...in fact more people settle than find a true emotional connection....I understand that now, one is about making the best of what you have and surviving in an uncertain world, the other is about risk, huge emotional risk, but becoming one with another (the safe place of choice for human beings)...we each get to make choices for what we want.... I just want to make sure people understand what they are choosing.<p>h4f....Why do people get married if not for love? That is the goal. It's not to have a spouse. It's not just to make a family. It's not to just have a house. The goal is love.<p>snl...I think so too, and I think what love describes is being safe.<p>h4f...I married for love and I won't take anything less from my H. If I get less, I hope for an affair (on his part) so that I have a biblical way out.<p>snl...well, that is a pragmatic thought, and actually pretty common I think...but it is kinda the cowards way out [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] IMO God provides the tools to deal with marital issues, including unhealthy marital choices.

(Don't mean to hijack a thread but...)<p>I am no coward, and only a coward would say so. (That is, in this respect. I hate snakes, spiders, cockroaches, food growing hair in my fridge...oh and the dentist.) I am married for thick or thin. If God will work in my H to not allow an affair, then I will take that as my cue to stay and work on it. But what I am saying is that I don't want to be stuck in a loveless marriage where golf takes precedence over church and I get blamed for his poor choices (as in the case of my father). But in my father's case, my H and I are looking for signs of an affair. They may not be there, but they might too, and I don't think my step-mother should have to endure it. Besides, she has a number of medical problems she has to deal with, without adding the worry of an affair.<p>I have had enough of the pain what little I have been through has caused. I could not bear to think my H actually felt something for this predator (which she definitely is). Just like God won't allow the Church (in the inclusive sense) to love another without consequence. I don't want my children to think marriage is supposed to get stale and one-sided. <p>I think it's rather the opposite that is true of what SNL said. Sometimes it's the coward's way to STAY. Sometimes one doesn't move on even though it would probably be in the person's or the family's best interest because then they will be alone, the family won't be provided for, etc. That is faithless and cowardly.<p>The other instances I would leave refer to physical or sexual abuse. And, having survived those two things, it's not cowardly at all for me to refuse to endure them again. And having suffered these shameful things, I won't suffer through another. I know I am worth more than that, and so are my kids. They deserve to observe that people can have worth above their circumstance, and allowing myself to trudge through the mire of an A, I could not be strong enough to show them inner peace and confidence. Not that they wouldn't be there, I am filled with the Holy Spirit, but I would feel the emotional pain, and I wear my feelings on my sleeve most of the time (though that is changing some). I also don't want them to see how their father treated me, for fear they would learn bad traits or make equally poor choices.<p>Also, my father tells my stepmother he loves her. I believe he probably does. He does the same things to her that he did with me (verbally abusive and emotional). Except it is more costly in his marriage because...well, they are married. My Dad doesn't show love very well except he does things. (Can't remember the title of this particular "love language.") He'll do many things for many people. But his heart isn't at home. I don't get it.<p>I think if people married for love, they should be able to find that love again. The question is if they want to or not. It's work. To not look is also a coward's tactic. I have looked and found love I didn't know was there. But this took an act of God.<p>Here's a thought for WSs and BSs alike, by Dr. James Dobson:<p>"The worth of an individual is not ascribed by law...it's endowed by the Creator."<p>I think we too often get wrapped up in what another thinks of us, especially our spouses, and forget that they only have has much worth as we do, and have none to give.<p>If I was alone with my H, no kids, I would be able to survive an affair more easily (not that it's easy). But since I have kids, there would be a legacy that would be left and I have to choose what that is.<p>Hoping

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>By H4F
Sometimes one doesn't move on even though it would probably be in the person's or the family's best interest because then they will be alone, the family won't be provided for, etc. That is faithless and cowardly.<hr></blockquote> <p>And before anyone jumps on me...I know that not every case in which a person stays is cowardly. There are some very strong people who do stay. These people stay for many good reasons, and many are very selfless.<p>Hoping