Well, it's been a little while since my last update... not sure how optimistic or pessimistic I was then, but whatever things were even a few days ago can change like the wind.<p>Anyhow, lately I've seen some evidence that WW and OM have cooled off quite a bit. She spends considerably less time in the city he is in (and they work in)... considerably.<p>I've seen cases where she's been able to warm up to me, be friendly, etc. I've seen cases where she's cold, heartless and clearly still in the fog.<p>Examples... on Thursday / Friday, she was quite happy. I had a fun work function planned on Saturday. She'd turned it down a while ago, while in one of her "funks", but on Friday, she actually said she regretted turning it down - "would have been healthy" for her. So I went, had a good time, she spent the day alone. When I get back, she's started "slipping" - back into her "funky world" where her life sucks, I've made her life suck, I've sucked away her youth (she's turning 30 on the 20th), etc., etc., blah, blah, blah.<p>Today I ask her if I could plan some stuff for her birthday. Wanted to make sure it was okay before forging ahead - common courtesy. Anyhow, she was pretty cool on the idea... "well, I do have laundry", "I'd really prefer to spend it alone at --- [a place we went a couple of times - very quiet, very isolated]". Well... okay then, some fun stuff appears to be out. Maybe this'd be another example of something she regrets later - you'd think she'd learn lessons about regret more easily...<p>Lately I've been seriously questioning things. Been questioning my love for her. Been realizing that I could find someone who's more sussed out, more willing to self-examine, more rounded as a person. I've lost so much respect for WW. Even when she's acting happy now, I get less and less enjoyment around her.<p>Her plan to move has stalled. With things going badly between her and OM, I think she fears that it'd leave her "alone" - something she claims she wants, yet is afraid to have. Everyone I talk to seems to think we need to be APART so she can be ALONE. I AGREE!<p>That's my Plan B, I guess... leaving. She's not about to right now. And I can't take much more of this... if we were at least having more good days than bad, or more EN were being met on both sides, or it didn't feel like a game, then I'd be happy to keep going in Plan A. But as it is, here's my latest and greatest plans:<p>- Finding a house to rent, starting May 1. (Part of my motivation with a house is frankly to make her jealous as childish as it sounds.)<p>- Leaving with a Plan B letter and some simple words... leaving to think about what I want, things aren't so clear to ME, protecting remaining love, yadda, yadda. Until she's willing to approach me in good faith about repairing things, I need to reserve the right to minimize contact.<p>- As opposed to an absolute Plan B, I'll allow for contact, but only limited. I won't initiate any. If I start to believe she's using it to "string me on", I'll quickly cut that off.<p>That's where things are at the moment. I've certainly been detaching, been arriving at acceptance more and more, so I feel less and less compelled to post as often...

JR,<p>What you are proposing is perhaps Plan JR, but it isn't plan B. If you go to plan b staying in contact with her until she P's you off and then going back to plan B, means you are just trying to punish her and shows that your Plan A was a fraud.<p>If you go to plan B it is NO CONTACT unless for children or dire emergancy. So do whatever you like, but please consider Plan B and not Plan JR.<p>Think about it.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JR,<p>You know your situation and where your lovebank is at the moment. If you do the plan b the way you plan, later you can always do a full plan b.<p>I am in psuedo plan b (according to Steve) & may go to a fuller plan b, but still have contact business wise. So, there can be many variables tp plan b. <p>I understand the questioning. Been asking myself that same thing. <p>God Bless

Well, JL took the words right outta my mouth.<p>Has Steve recommended this pseudo Plan B? - Plan A1/2? If so, maybe JL and I need to rough him up a bit. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] But if WillGetThruThis has Steve's OK, maybe I need to be roughed up.<p>Seriously, in your case with no kids, there's nothing you NEED to talk about with her in Plan B except any legal separation stuff. If you think there is, you're not ready for Plan B, IMHO.<p>The key may be how you finalize your Plan B letter. Ya gotta lay out the scenery clear anc concisely. This is what I'm doing and why. Based on my recollection of your draft, I think you did this, but I may be remembering someone else's letter.<p>In the meantime, don't knock her up.

Actually, Steve himself was advising me against a "full on" Plan B... when we discussed it last, he asked me what my Plan B might look like... I just assumed it would be "by the book", and he indicated that might not be the only option and I should give it some more thought... as with everyone, situations can vary, I suppose. As he told me before, he'd definitely not advise everyone to talk to OP, but for my situation and what he knew about it, it was strongly advised - and it had a major impact, exactly in keeping with what he'd predicted.<p>My main goal with Plan B at this point is to come up with something that makes sense for the sitaution. As the situation changes, I'd expect my plans to adapt... while keeping in close contact with SH. So don't worry... got it under control! I do myself question the value in doing anything but "full on" Plan B, but Steve and I need to talk more about that this week.

I think back to our situation and honestly I feel that if our son had not been involved and contact had not continued for that reason...we would most probably not be together today. Being together as a family let me see my husband in a good way again and remember that he is in fact someone I enjoy being with. I became very comfortable living alone, even though it was tough financially.<p>BUT...I would say the primary thing that pushed me off the fence was the divorce. As I've told you before, it was the last 3 months of our seperation where I did my clearest thinking. The OM was not in and out of my life, I had become accustomed to paying bills and living alone, so my focus didn't have to be so concetrated there. In the last 3 months my H and I had very minimal contact so esentially that was the closest we ever really came to plan B. Had we done that from the start maybe the original agreement to seperate for 6 months would have been enough.<p>I know I've told you that some contact might be optimal...but I have a strong feeling that if that "some" door is left a crack open, she'll try to use that to keep you hanging on. My Husband did really well there. He had also become comfortable with his life and was ready to move on. When I talked to him and admitted to having been pigheaded and too angry to give him a chance...he told me basically THIS IS IT...you decide whether you want to be MARRIED to me or not, because I'm tired of the pain. I decided at that moment that I would give it my all...not just "try" it out to see if it was better or ok or what. That's why I moved back so quickly. That's how married people live...together. I quit worrying about IS this going to work and concentrated on HOW is this going to work.<p>You have to be very very careful if you do a modified plan B...she can use that minimal allowability to hold on to her comfort zone as much as possible. In order to pull her head out...she's got to hit bottom and hit hard...and that means you can't "be there" for her while it's happening. I think once you approach her with your plans she will go into panic mode just like she did when you talked with the OM.<p>Don't worry about becoming comfortable without her...with the level of stress you two are under now it's to be expected that being apart will actually feel better. My H and I BOTH become perfectly comfortable with the arrangement at hand. Given the opportunity, that can change and you can find love together again...and if the opportunity doesn't present itself, well, you've grown and learned so much...you'll be fine and you know that. So I guess I would stress that YOU don't have to make a sudden decisions. You know you'll be ok no matter what, and you know that even if you did walk out and divorce immediatly that you would need time before you were ready for anything else. So take the time reguardless. I'm sure Steve will have more insight for you in that area.<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: hope4future ]</p>

H4F... thanks for your time, you're doing me (and others) a great service here.<p>I'd be all-too-glad to leave and give WW the "aloneness" she so desperately needs... but I know that OM will always be there, working with her, clouding her vision. That's one factor that makes it tough to Plan B, as IC/MC has pointed out (says she'd have suggested it a long time ago if not for that).<p>I think her and OM, given the opportunity to "try it out", might actually succeed well enough for her to be satisfied with her screwy state of mind, so long as she believes she can "win me back" somehow - just in case she changes her mind. I've seen that theme echoed many times here. That it takes some "deadly force" in a way to shake 'em to their core. Hence a strong, strong Plan B with absolutely no contact might be truly best, even at risk of not being available to slowly "win her back", kind of like your H did by the sounds of it. I've seen her run to me a bit in the past when things with OM were not good, so I don't know how much "winning" I really need to do. If she wants me, we might be able to talk, if she doesn't - well, I gave it my all, and I've grown.<p>I can't believe she'd be prepared to live her life with the need to hold that defensive shield up forever, always needing to demonize me... am I giving myself too much credit, removing my responsibility for things? Not really - she's been willing to admit herself that what she's done is use anger and resentment to justify her own bad behavior. And when I've seen her put it aside, I've seen her caring side "come back". So it is a state of mind, at least to an extent... and to believe she'd consider holding onto that... really destroys a lot of my respect for her.<p>Anyhow, I digress.<p>When you finally admitted your "pigheadedness", how far along were you? Heck, my WW has admitted it at times, but generally in moments when the fog's thinned - it has always come back in force.

Hey JR, got your email but I'm going to go ahead and respond here (time issues and hopefully maybe someone else will benefit).<p>My first "gut" feeling here is that what's keeping you from leaving is because you feel you'll lose "control" (or what very little you have) of the situation...as well, of course, as no longer being able to judge where things are at by having no contact. You're right...the OM will be there "in her face"...so what? That's the point...let her get sick of it. You can't control the outcome of this NO MATTER WHAT you do right or wrong or otherwise. She will do what she will do and you've got to do what's best for you. It's time to start doing that. You've shown her your best and that you're growing and changing...now you've got to show her your still a person with choices of your own. Believe me, she's forgotten that. She most likely still thinks this is all about her. I know you're scared...I DON'T BLAME YOU! BUT...you really have nothing to be scared of. By leaving you will be resigning as "hall monitor" of your wifes affair. You can truly focus on you and your life...and if in time she simply won't pull her head out...that's not your responsibility. I know how hard it is...to see someone who you KNOW has so much more potential piss it away because they're too stubborn. Gee...that must have been how my friends felt too [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I don't believe for one minute that she and OM can try it out and be comfortable with that. You're letting the fear of the possibility (extrememly SMALL possibility) that he could "win" keep you there? Hey, do you really think he WINS if he gets a woman who is so obviously in need of emotional growth but who refuses to do one thing about it and chooses him to run away with??? What is it that you really fear losing here? I know you love her...atleast the wife she used to be...but where things are at today you dont' stand to lose much. Take that chance...no matter what your life will be better in the end.<p>Your friend may have closed that door too soon...it's hard to say. Everyone takes their own time to sort things out...and I've read many places it can take 2 years. That was just about our timeline to the T.<p>June 3 1999 - Tornado
Oct 1999 - getting a crush on OM
Nov 1999 - chatting with OM turns to latenight
Dec 1999 - admitted feelings, OM and I cool off while I go to counseling (H reads my journal and finds out about my feelings)
Jan 2000 - counselor is a huge flop becuase I'm doing everything I can to poopoo any thoughts to the contrary that OM and I are soulmates, find the board on Redbook and begin posting
Jan-Oct H and I try on and off to patch things up, but I keep losing myself in the fantasy and keep contacting OM and making plans to move out
Oct 2000 - Finally move out, OM makes his move and jumps right in
Dec 2000 things start cooling off, I need my space yadda yadda yadda
Jan 2001 - no contact, H and I decide to work at it again, get a new counselor and actually make some progress.
March 2001 - I've given up again, counselor has me convinced that H and I are too incompatible, she's fed into the big head I already was getting, OM and I are somewhat in a relationship
Summer 2001 I filed for divorce, somewhat at H's pushing, mostly at OM's pushing...my main excuse for not doing it sooner is money, which is true to an extent
Fall 2001 OM and I are only on part time phone contact...I'm maintaining space for ME, working and taking care of my son...minimal contact with ANYONE.
Nov 2001 Final court hearing is only a few weeks away, find out that H spent the weekend with a girl and her family for Thanksgiving celebration, the loss of the "family" holiday time and the realization of what the future holds and what my part in the past problems was causes my head to pop right out of my [censored]. I email the H and he emails back. I call him, he asks me exactly what i'm willing to do to work this out. I clearly tell him ANYTHING, fully intending to back that up with actions. He comes over the next day to spend Thanksgiving as a family then we head up to my family to spend some time. When we get back my H and his brother start moving me back immediatly. I called the OM to let him know that I was moving back, permanently, and would no longer be in contact with him. He was very distraught, yet at times I could tell he had some idea it was coming. I've not spoken to him since and H and I have been full bore "honeymooning" ever since. I'm a bit worried when that will end. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anyway..not sure if that timeline will help at all, but it might give you some ideas as to where my head was at what times. When I say it took 2 years I'm including while I was still at home and unsure whether I wanted to stay or go. Your wifes been doing that a while.<p>Ug...I've got an appt. and it's a busy day ahead. I WILL check back in and give you more info..anything I can pull out of my a$$ (lots of room in there now that my heads no longer residing there). Try to have a good day!!!

Hi H4F,<p>I don’t like to over-analyze… &#61514;… but now that you’ve got me thinking… [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>As for my fearing loss of control…only to a degree. It’s not so much a fear as it is an honest belief that there might be a path out there that involves doing something that doesn’t involve Plan B quite yet. I think of a post by Heartpain a while ago, saying something to the effect, “You need to know your WS” – and for him, it was staying in Plan A essentially. (Well, there was a divorce in progress there, too.) So for me, it’s more that overall “intellectual process” of moving on a path I don’t want to be on, but know it’s right. I know that I don’t want WW in her current state – I’ve been able to write down about 20-30 traits I AM looking for… and right now, WW can barely meet any of them. And given my slow shift in coming to acceptance, it truly is a different feeling than I’ve been accustomed to. It’s truly allowing me to think about life without her, and not being distraught about it. But at the same time, it comes back to those points I think about in SAA… why trying “The Plans” is important: 1. To know I did everything I could (and I certainly have given her every opportunity to change – in an environment devoid of pressure – also realizing that crisis will likely be needed), 2. She hasn’t closed the door herself (and is so very clearly struggling – in fact, she’s shown some very uncharacteristic WS traits during this time – admission of wrong, admission of love, etc.), 3. Owning my mistakes (I think I’ve addressed most of these by now – but some aspects such as being more emotionally connected, require her to be in a “different place” to accept them, and some days I think she’s getting there – and if she did, I could really, honestly address the last of her issues with the M), 4. To lose my love for her if the plans fail (I’ve been getting there, and realize that is becoming a compelling reason to stop this).<p>I agree that she thinks it’s all about her. She gets agitated whenever I exert any degree of control over my own life. Between that, how she seems to act jealously (needlessly), how she has fence-sat so solidly… as IC/MC admits, if it were only guilt holding her here, she should be relieved and moving on herself by now.<p>So basically I’m agreeing with you… I think the real key for me right now is to talk to Steve (on Friday AM). It’s about coming up with a complete Plan. There’s a lot of sub-issues to deal with, as we’ve been chatting about by e-mail. And last time I talked to Steve, he was of a similar opinion – time alone will be needed.<p>JL, WAT, WGTH, I’ll let you know how things with SH go… as I said, he obviously sees things in a certain way, and I want to grill him about that… he’s got to do a job convincing me that “full on” Plan B is anything but essential. I think it is.