What is with this guy? He and I were talking about how we'll plan for him to move out by June 1st, and the conversation was focusing on EN's and such.<p>For those who don't know, I was just recently diagnosed with depression, and have been on anti-depression medication for just over one month now. I had explained to H that for a few months, I may not be able to fulfil his EN's as much as I'd like to, because I need to focus more on me right now. However, I would be here to listen to him if he needed someone to talk to.<p>With that said, I'll continue.....<p>My love bank is obviously extremely low OR I've wised up a lot H's antics... because I'm hardly even feeling any pity for him right now. He's convinced that my "kicking him out" isn't going to solve anything. He figures it would be best for him to stay here, so that he can work on his problems with me 'looking over his shoulder' (his words).<p>My thoughts on this are, "it's been almost one year now, and things haven't changed enough, so I can't see them getting much better in the next short while".<p>That's when he throws (what was supposed to be?) the 'bomb' on me, by telling me that I'm not the only one who's had suicidal thoughts.<p>I told him that I wasn't aware that he was feeling that way, and that I wish he would have said something to me. And most importantly, that HE is the only one who can do anything about it. Apparently he has told this to his 'buddy guy friend' (who he's heading out to see right now), but failed to tell me. Why would he? I'm only his WIFE!!!! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I just needed to vent some more. H is really trying the pull the pity party approach on me right now. And I'm just so tired of it. Oh yeah, I should mention that HIS reason for not telling me about his suicide thoughts was because he was worried about me and didn't want to interfere with MY healing. Oh yes, THIS way is SO.... MUCH BETTER!!!! NOT!!!!!! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen

you are not falling for this baloney are you? Everyone has sucicidal "thoughts" so what. In any event none of us has the slightest responsibility for someone hurting themself (well, assuming we don't actively and with malice try to drive em crazy). If you actually believe your H, tell him you will be more than willing to drive him to the nearest crisis center, that is the extent of your obligation as a human being or spouse...killing oneself is between the individual and his/her maker, no one else can do anything about it....and certainly letting the threat control your behaviour is a recipe for relationship disaster...IMO when a spouse starts saying they don't want to live if you leave, it is REALLY time to hit the road, might as well put a gun to your head, no difference....massive coercion....but in your case this seems such obvious manipulation, did he really say all this with a straight face?<p>[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

A straight face, yes! However, he couldn't look me straight in the eye while he was saying it. My H has been a manipulative liar to EVERYONE for years (most of his life I'll assume). It's just like the fable about "never cry wolf". That's how I feel about my H when he's feeling ill or down now. Sad, isn't it?<p>No, I didn't believe him entirely. I don't doubt that he's had those thoughts, b/c just like you said, I too believe that all humans think like that periodically. <p>I do feel as though he's grasping at straws now, trying to make me change my mind about him moving out. I don't plan to allow that to happen. I see myself posting a LOT more now, to ensure that I don't back down on my boundaries and choices.<p>Karen

{{{{{{Karen}}}}}<p>I'm sorry!!! What a mess!!!!<p>Hey, this is just my take - just my opinion - I could wayyyy wrong. (This is something I'm trying very desperately to work on in myself)<p>BTW, I can tell by the tone of your posts that you seem stronger, and your emotional roller coaster is more even. Maybe the anti-d's are helping you get better control of the LB's. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] (LB Queen!!! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] puhleeezzz.... hehe)<p>Are you sure you are making yourself available for him to be open and honest with you? Does he feel safe to talk to you about anything, without the fear of negative reactions from you (angry outbursts, dis judg's, sadness, disapproval, disappointment, hurt, etc)?<p>I look back and wonder WHY XH felt like he couldn't talk to me about stuff (his unhappiness in the marriage - his EN's not being fulfilled, etc). I wonder: is he really that much of a conflict-avoider - or have I "trained" him that it's dangerous to bring up touchy subjects with me??? I'm not sure - probably both. I tried my BESTEST to show him I was trying to improve in this area. This is something I need to work on very hard.<p>I'm so sorry things are so tough for you right now. I guess I just want to remind you (and me ;P ) that you can only control YOUR reactions, thoughts, and feelings, and to be sure that you are doing your part in creating safe environment for openness and honesty. <p>It DOES sound like perhaps you've changed your dance a little, and therefore = EXPECT him to adjust his steps in reaction. He's used to you doing the thinking and feelings for him. Now you're turning that responsibility over to him. He's not sure how to handle it.

Dear Karen,<p>I am sorry to hear about this turn of events. Catch me up on his moving out? Planned?<p>Depression seems to be making it's rounds all over this continent. Me too. Seems like I am tolerating less and since the last call from PBR, I am hitting the anger and depression mode more often. <p>After accepting what has happened, I a still am ready to move on. I told me H that if he would not protect us from further attacks (verbal or otherwise) from an OP, then he needed to leave. There have been other things happening that just wasn't making me feel good. Needless to say, I felt the same burdened down feelings coming over me again this morning. I was having nightmares last night for what seemed all night long. I would get up and then when I would try to go back to sleep, well seems like that same channel and nightmare would 'continue'. Arrrgh.....I knew it was bad when I got up to go to the bathroom and came back to bed and the same nightmare started into the next scene!!! This hasn't happened in months but for me it is a sign that I am exhausted and having a minor meltdown. <p>So when I was strong enough I called H into the room and decided to give him the stress that I felt in my neck and shoulders. Oh yea, I have also been in pain in my shoulders for almost 1 year. (started in May 01). <p>Anyways, just talking and telling him that he needed to carry his burden and even if that meant him moving out until he could prove he was protecting and caring for his family.<p>That conversation made me feel a bit better. I could feel the tension lift off my shoulders and I saw the impact on him. He looked at me with wonderment in his eyes and all he could say was, 'I don't have anywhere to go'. <p>Me, I was very unsympathetic because I know he uses that line to get out of doing what he is suppose to do. So I just shrugged my shoulders and said, yea me too. I left for the afternoon and came back around 5pm. His stuffwas still here. He has since gone to do another delivery and I already told him that he would have to find another place to stay. I know this is pushing him back to the OW but right now, I have to strengthen myself. I can't have this man in my home using up our family care to pursue his selfish ambitions. <p>Am I asking too much? Nope, change the phone # and take care of his business. Cheeze, we haven't even addressed my needs yet....... ya know?!?!? <p>Sorry didn't mean to dump on ya'. Just wanted to let you know that I understand. Or at least I think I understand!?!?!?<p>Take Care,
L.

Faith: Funny you should mention about the creating the safe environment thingy. H said that he was afraid of my reaction to his porno watching stuff, and that's why he didn't say anything to me (I know... this should be on my other thread). He says I've been like a bomb that could go off at any moment in the last 6 months, and that he was afraid of my reactions. I didn't like the way I was acting either - which is why I went to the doctor to get help. But that's no excuse for him to stay away from me and not tell me about his depression. House rules are 'no secrets'. H claims to understand that. I think my problem with MAINTAINING the safe environment has been b/c H wasn't helping enough in the ways I needed him to. I felt like I was doing it all by myself. And now I'm just tired of it. I better stop now... because I'm just rambling and not going in any direction in particular. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Orchid: I have another thread on the first page about H and the porn and me asking him to leave. That should get you up to date. Both of my threads were started tonight, as these events only occurred today.<p>O, I'm sorry about your situation too. I have been having a strong feeling that all wasn't so well on your front either. I haven't been asking for too much either. I've been mostly looking for some common courtesy (he still hasn't figured out that to me, one hour out with his friend means one hour, and if it's later than that, all I would like is a phone call - OR for him not to say a time frame in the first place), and more help around the house with the boys. I will admit, he's been trying in the kids dept., but he still needs to be told what is to be done. I HATE that. So, I don't blame you for feeling stressed out again. Because I'm feeling the same way. Like too much is on ME, and not enough on HIM. He needs to learn that fence sitting for any length of time in ANY situation is NOT ACCEPTABLE to me! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen

I don't know what your financial situation is, but this is an alternative that might help. <p>These are steps I'd require my husband to take:
1. Find a local SA meeting schedule and attend, without fail.
2. Get a 12 step sponsor.
3. Plan to check in to an intensive SA recovery therapy program - there are several but one of the best is run by Patrick Carnes in Arizona.
4. Get a good therapist.<p>Alternative to 1-4? Get a good lawyer.<p>Since I'm married to an addict in recovery, I've been through this too. I went to a recovery program for spouses and I studied "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend. I found that my behavior and reactions to the addict had their own consequences for me in stopping the addiction from ruining my life too.

KaylaAndy: Thank you for your thoughts. I understand what you mean about my having control in the consequences of H's addictions. However, I feel as though I'm at a loss as to how to alter things. I feel as though I've tried many different things to help me AND him through this. But none of it has been good enough.<p>H refuses to see a counsellor. As he tells me, "you know that I'm uncomfortable talking to strangers". I've reminded him that I'm here to listen to him if he needs, and that there are numerous sites on the net that he can go to for help and information. And most importantly, that he is the only one who can help himself.<p>I haven't checked in to the local SA group. I had thought about it last summer, to see what they offerred for spouses of SA's. But I will admit, that after having a not so enlightening experience with an Al-anon group I attended a few years ago (my dad is an alcoholic), I lost my faith in those groups (for now?).<p>Karen

Karen, have you read "Boundaries" yet?

You can't make him get recovery. What you can do is insulate yourself against the addict's behavior. One friend of mine refers to that protection as a plexiglass barrier between them that when he throws his crap at her, it falls on his side of the glass and falls at his feet, while she remains protected and clean.<p>The rules that spouses of addicts have to learn is:
1. All Addicts Lie.
2. Recovery carries specific markers in behavior that will tell you if they're truly in recovery. Words are meaningless.
3. Addicts don't give up their addiction until the pain of what the addiction is costing them exceeds the pleasure they get from acting out.
4. Once sobriety from addiction starts, other addictions will come to the surface - overeating, angry manipulation, etc.
5. The world revolves around the addict; if they aren't getting their fix, everybody pays and pays and pays until recovery is truly established. <p>(If you want to see what a man is like who still struggles staying clean from pornography - it's a one-day-at-a-time process for him, but the rest of the addictive side effects are in remission, read Kasey1's posts - you'll see the man's heart in what he writes and the remorse for his past behavior is apparent. He recognizes that his wife did not cause his pain; that he is completely responsible for what has happened in his life.)<p>As the spouse of a formerly active addict, I've had to learn to not live my life in reaction to the addict. I can't have my life revolve around whether or not he will ever look at porn or not. I'm certain that while his recovery has been fully of his own choosing, that my ability to live completely self-sufficient hasn't hurt.

That was really good kayla...oft times here there is a lot of fluff, essentially play nice, life will get better....you seem pretty well grounded in pragmatic assessments of stuff, one being accountability, something I see (too often) lacking here for many...this whole issue of boundaries, tough love, accountability, and consequences is really crucial and does not get enough press...

Topie,
Straight from Dr Phillip McGraw LIFE STRATEGIES dealing with suicide threats:<p>"Stay the course. Do not be diverted from your resolve. If your partner threatens to leave or commit suicide, that's a bluff you must call. If you think the threat to harm him or herself is genuine, your relationship and your partner were much more unstable than you thought. In any event, if you believe they are capable of hurting themselves, call the police or the county sheriff and let the professionals deal with it, BUT DO NOT CAVE IN. If you back off, you are teaching the partner that you can be "handled". "