I have been lurking since I discovered my husband's affair in november 2001, I never really needed to add topics because everything I wanted to know could be found in other people's topics and I don't have any advice to offer anybody.
Today I was reading here and I was wondering at why the people who are divorced and thaat the plan's didn't work for give advice. I don't mean any disrespect but why not let the one's who saved their marriage's be the one's to give help?
I always see worthatry telling other people what to do but didn't his plan's fail? I don't get it?

Nicki,
Some here have been to hell and back trying to save their marriages and in doing so have learned a lot about the MB concepts.
WAT, RedHat and others are able to explain these concepts very well. Many here are very fortunate to have them around to help those who are crying out for help.
As the old saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make em drink". Some WS's just don't want to drink....
SH<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: stillhurts ]</p>

Some people who learn of MB and plan A and B (especially WSs and OPs) think that it is meant to be manipulative and 'get back' the WS...<p>I probably thought that at first. That I could do this or do that and win back my H. I totally missed the point.<p>The marriage is at a turning point and the couple--each person--is as well. To grow and learn, or not... and to keep repeating the same issues over and over and over.<p>The best part about this site is the focus on SELF and GROWTH.<p>People who learn about themselves and grow, whether or not the marriage stays intact, are a success story. <p>Sometimes in a marriage you can learn to grow together, and some can't.<p>Cali

I am one of "them" too, so I'll take a stab here. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Your question makes perfect sense. I wouldn't want someone who flunked out of medical school to teach me about medicine! I wouldn't want someone whose business went bankrupt to teach me about how to be successful in business. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>1. One difference here, I believe, is that we can not control other people. My marriage ended in divorce, but I feel that I did everything I could to salvage it. I can't control the fact that my H insisted on being on his own. I made some mistakes in our marriage - of course (we all do) - so I took part in the demise of the marriage. I have also learned from my mistakes. I'm hoping that I can share what I've learned with some others.<p>2. I'm still here learning - as are all the MB'ers. Learning about myself, affairs, and how to be the best wife I can the next go-round - if there IS a next go-round. None of us MB'ers are experts - we are all here learning, and we provide support and advice whenever we can. No one should take my advice - or anyone else's here - as the gospel truth for their life. We are normal, everyday people, with different experiences and perspectives.<p>3. I think most of the advice you'll see is to attempt to help people work on themselves. No one knows how to "save a marriage". We certainly can't tell you how your spouse is going to behave. All we can do is work on ourselves, have patience, and treat others respectuflly. I think that's usually the type of advice you'll see here.<p>4. Lastly, I didn't follow the MB plans to a TEE. If I HAD followed everyone's advice, followed the principles, and counseled faithfully with the Harley's, it's a possibility (MAYBE!!!) that I would still be married. No guarantees!!!<p>Just my humble 2 cents.... Hope that helps you! Stick around and keep reading! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

Why would you single out WAT? Sorry but if you meant no disrespect, perhaps you should not have used a specific username in your example?<p> A question for you? Are you so far along in your quest to save your marriage and heal yourself that you cannot use encouragement from whatever person offers it to you?<p> The failure of WATS marriage has absolutely no bearing on the quality of his efforts. Ok? The failure of his marriage has NO BEARING
on whether he knows and used the concepts of this site. <p> Lastly...If you are unwilling to step out of the shadows and offer advice, you are not qualified to make judgments concerning those that do step up.<p> Now I mean NO disrespect to you either. But seeing as this was your first post, don't you think it was a waste of time? Perhaps not.<p> My advice to you would be that you figure out who is divorced and who isn't and then avoid the posts by those you don't view as qualified to give advice. Of which, WAT most certianly is.<p> jd

dear nickworth a try's marriage may have failed,but his insight on all of this is priceless. some of us live in situations of ws's who wont speak to us and have no idea what they are thinking and feeling. wat's advice to me has been encouraging and uplifting. the fact that a human can go through this and still have the heart and mind to uplift another pained soul, is incredible. we all have to take the advice that pertains to us and do what we will with it. some good, some bad, we have to decide. good luck to you

Nicki,
My marriage is nearing 2 years of recovery, but there were absolute mistakes I made during the 2+ years of bad times that I wouldn't encourage anyone to take. And, actually I thought my marriage had failed, we were on the verge of divorce...so am I qualified to give advice? How about encouragement? Support? Hugs?<p>Some of the most sensible, patient, loving, thoughtful people here are divorced.<p>Wisdom born of pain.<p>I'd take advice from WAT. And have taken advice from Resilient, from Chris, from New Beginning and many others that this is their 2nd marriage.<p>Marital success does not measure the personal success of the poster.

On the other end of that extreme, I AM still married to my husband, we are recovering--and I still come to this site everyday. I need help. I can't do this alone. We have been back together for a year now, and if it weren't for the friends I have here, I would still be lonely sometimes when my husband is being a weirdo.<p>I think people who have failed marriages are the BEST people to refer to--hindsight is so precious. I am divorced once, and now I know what I could have done to same my marriage. I see so many people that feel the way I did about my first husband. My ex fulfilled none of my emotional needs, and I was a spoiled brat back then--I have matured a lot since, and now I know. . .<p>I don't offer advice too often--I work too much (gotta pay child support) so I would be typing all day if I did that. But you should count yourself lucky that divorced people share their time and effort and advice to come here.<p>This is something I have never told anybody: While my own marriage was floundering--there was a wonderful gentleman who used to come here. His wife had left him for some drug-snorting little punk. He worked so hard to get her back, and he loved her so much. <p>When I joined MB, I had missed that part. This gentleman was accepting the fact that she was gone and was beginning the divorce proceedings just as I logged on for the first time.<p>He responded to my posts, and counseled me many times. I am not a real patient person sometimes, and my rage at the OW was almost uncontrollable. My friend, so many times, held me back from calling the witch and letting her have it. A few frank and gentle words soothed my anger. It was a real comfort to know that someone cared enough to save me.<p>That person is WilliamJ--my friend. I haven't seen him around here for a long time, and maybe that's a good thing (You DO have to move on after a while) but I owe a lot to someone who had been to hell and back and was still standing proudly.

Then I don't know WHAT you would think of me with my OC from an A with a MM!!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I respect anyone who has gone through the pain of a divorce and is able to see PAST THEIR OWN PAIN to reach out to encourage someone who is hurting and offer kind suggestions based on what they have learned.<p>Just because an MBer is divorced doesn't mean they didn't give their 100% to prevent it. It just proves that Plan A/Plan B do NOT manipulate or control another person. They help the BS "SURVIVE AN AFFAIR" with or without the WS.

Hi Nicki - I think you have an excellent question and it's one I often ask of myself.<p>As a matter of fact, I frequently disable my signature line - especially when I respond to posters on Just Found Out - for the very reason you bring up. It's obvious I "failed" and newbies may be justifiably suspect at my advice - if not my understanding.<p>ditto to Faith's Medical School analogy.<p>But, after asking myself this question and frequently thinking about whether I'm doing myself more harm than good by still posting here, I've come to the following conclusion several times:<p>I and other "failed" posters have been through the entire gamut. Start to finish. We've seen more crap than just about ALL folks in quick success stories. We've likely read lots more here by shear time expended and, thus, may have accumulated more imported experience from others. I can't speak for others, but I find I learn more breadth from other folks descriptions than from my own experience - which supplies the depth. I'm especially thankful for the interaction with former WSs. Without their input, I don't think this forum would sustain itself. BTW, who better to impart understanding to a WS than a BS - and vice versa?<p>In addition, some marriages cannot be salvaged. Some marital problems may go much deeper than unmet needs (mine for example) - which the MB principles may not be fully equipped to address, other than to try to get folks into counseling.<p>For the record, I do not offer advice on the Recovery forum and I usually give a caveat when I tread into an area I have no direct experience in.<p>So, this is my story and I'm sticking to it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] BTW, I expect this question to come up as I seek to publish my book, "Quickstart Guidelines For Betrayed Spouses." Thanks for airing this out here so that I can take advantage of the answers. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Also, thanks for your words, "I always see worthatry telling other people what to do..."<p>This means to me that perhaps I too often communicate in a "telling" fashion rather than a "suggestion" fashion.<p>I need to work on that.

Nicki,
Are you still around? Did we answer your questions? <p>C'mon out of your lurking and talk to us sometime.<p>I had one more thought for you - in answer to your questions:<p>Many of the happily recovered couples are not lurking and posting as much. They are out *there* in real life - practicing what they learned here, spending time together, and building their marriages. That's one reason that "the successful ones" may seem to be a slim percentage of the "crowd" here on the forums.

Hi Nicki ...<p>I am one of those that ended up divorced (unwillingly) where the Harley's Plan(s) DID work for me. <p>Although I am still here and post, without the Plan(s) which the Harleys have offered, I would have ended up in a rubber room somewhere. My situation was a bit severe and I really don't think I would have behaved as mature and loving nor would I have made it, emotionally speaking, without this forum or the Harley's concepts.<p>I still have lots of work to do on myself, but at least I know it and have a goal, and that's all because of the Harley's.<p>I believe MB divorced people have tons to offer. Because they've been there ... their experience is invaluable when it comes to offering MB pratical advice as well as guidance when someone is stuck or needing direction. <p>I also hope to someday be able to use what I've learned in a new relationship.<p>I think and hope the support we (MB Divorcee's) offer is helpful. <p>Jo<p>[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Open mouth insert foot. Sorry worthatry I didn't mean to say that you were a failure. I just meant that your marriage failed and it seems like that was your wife's fault. I'm sorry. The place I meant you tell people what to do was in a place where you said ignore so and so and so and so. I really didn't mean any disrespect.

Nicki, I too am fairly new to this site and have done much lurking, which has taught me more than I ever could have known. I too, in the beginning really looked at some of the advice with a jaded eye, but I am learning that is something that I think comes from the result of the A. Being a BS is tough, no denying that. Much of the illusion we thought our life to be was shattered on D-day! And that seems to carry over into different aspects of life.<p>One thing that has been very helpful for me is to read posts from people who have been through it all. It can be so easy to glamorize the other side of the fence and what has been shared about divorce and the effects, boy I would like to avoid. WAT has been a HUGE help! In sharing his experiences, I have learned so much, I am in counseling and what I am learning there has been repeated here in many different forms, but when I need a good quick reminder it is usually something WAT says that helps. <p>In life sometimes we get information/advice from what me might deem to be a very unlikely source and that is good, it helps us to grow personally. Keeping an open mind can be very hard right now, I know there are times I would like to shut down from everything and protect myself at all costs, but doing that takes away the sun, and I need to grow. <p>Hang in there, and remember you only need to take what works for you, but you are doing so much by being here and reading all there is here to offer! I have been amazed at some of the wisdom and thankful for the strength it has given to me.
[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Nicki,<p>A very fair and good question. I hope you are getting answers that make sense. You see I am even stranger than WAT, WELL, maybe not. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I nor my spouse ever had an affair, OC, divorce, etc. I came here years ago to learn more about my marriage which I wasn't very happy with.<p>In those days all posts were at a single site. Once the site broke up into individual topics,I have kept posting. So my point is that in many ways I am the least qualified person here to post on many issues.<p>Why do I post? Occasionally, I see things from a different perspective. I am sure I am wrong more than I am right. But, I think you need to understand that this discussion forum is for you or anyone else to get ideas and the more directions they come from the better.<p>I will say some of the most effective and helpful people on this site are WSs. Yet, they don't know the pain of the BS. It is all about learning.<p>One final point, Harley in his writing has pointed out that he doesn't expect that all marriges can be saved. But, he felt that his insights could save a lot more than the alternatives such as counselors telling the WS to keep it a secret, quit seeing OP, and stay married. <p>Nevertheless, marriages do fail. Sometimes it is things beyond anyone's control, in WAT's case a major contributor was the loss of his son to cancer. But, he learned, he tried, and he knows that he gave it all he could give to save the marriage. There is no more one can do. However, that experiences means that he has learned things that many of us haven't.<p>So you see, it is the mix that makes this place really useful. WE have women pregnant with OM's children, we have women who's H's have fathered children with OW. We have men and women who have had or are in affairs. We have people who's spouses have serious mental issues derived from childhood abuse. The full spectrum.<p>But, the key is to get counseling from a professional, come talk to the people here for their perspective and the combination will very likely allow you to do the best you can do. In that regard you will be success.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Here's another 2 cents!!! Your question is valid but as you can see many offer their opinions which is why it is good to get all viewpoints. <p>D is not reflective of an individuals failure. It is not necessarily a 'bad mark' on all who are affected by it. The children are victims of divorce but are they to be marked for life? No. <p>Neither should the faithful spouse. Even if it is the faithful spouse that initiates the D. Much can be learned. <p>I for one have learned from all here. Believe it or not even learned a thing or two from the WS. There have been some reasonable and psyco Ws and OPs here. Learned from them all. <p>Learned how not to be nutso from the psyco ones and how to be smart from those who still retain their santity. Believe me, this place will help keep your santity just when you feel you are at your wits end!!! <p>Sometimes those that have gone through the D fare better than those of us struggling with returning WS'. I was just thinking about that the other day. Wondering if I have been short changed?!?!? My choice for now though and I am living with that choice. <p>Post your story when you are ready. Maybe the responses you receive may be different than you think!!<p>
JMHO,
L.<p>Just wanted to add that for me those like Jo, Wat, Faith, etc have been invaluable in their support. Couldn't ask for better help. Oh yea, the LB fairie is out there winging her way around to help out whenever I need it!!! LOL!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

Funnily enough, venture capitalist prefer to lend money to entrepreneurs who already have had a business start-up failure! In their view, the chance of business success is higher as the entrepreneur will have gained insight into valuable lessons learnt.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>the chance of business success is higher as the entrepreneur will have gained insight into valuable lessons learnt. <hr></blockquote><p>hehe... so it should be easy to find another husband!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I should charge him a start-up fee cuz of my "insight", huh? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>love it..... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]