I think Thinker is acting as a caged animal, also. That is not a plus for you SNL. What I am saying is she is acting primal also, because the one person who was supposed to be on her side is now on the other team. Yes, Thinker you must try very hard to leave SNL alone. Don't go near him. If you must attack, do it the legal way. Get a lawyer to do the biting for you.<p>SnL, if you don't want her to act this way to you, then observe the Golden Rule. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."<p>The resposibility is yours, SNL. It is clear that Thinker has had too much. Maybe you have too. But I see very little effort on your part to be the spiritual leader of your family. You must start now. Especially if you are to spare your children from crisis of belief in the things YOU taught them.<p>I understand the outrage, been there, done that. I also know I have a choice about how I act. 1 Cor. 10:13 "No temptation has taken you, but what is common to man." You aren't the only one to ever feel this way, and neither is Thinker.<p>Get a grip. Get on your knees and pray for your responses and for Thinker and for your children. For all who will be affected by these actions. <p>Hoping

To quote and DITTO hoping4future:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Yes, Thinker you must try very hard to leave SNL alone. Don't go near him. If you must attack, do it the legal way. Get a lawyer to do the biting for you.<p>SnL, if you don't want her to act this way to you, then observe the Golden Rule. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."<p>The resposibility is yours, SNL. It is clear that Thinker has had too much. Maybe you have too. But I see very little effort on your part to be the spiritual leader of your family. You must start now. Especially if you are to spare your children from crisis of belief in the things YOU taught them.<p> <hr></blockquote><p>snl - still interested if you have any comments on my last "conversation" post from last nite... anything that hasn't been addressed already.

but not immature at all... <p>LMAO. Having sex outside of marriage is not immature? That certainly is a new one for me. An affiar is selfish behavior. It is chosing to do what you want in spite of the pain you would cause another. it is completely immature. You cannot rationalize you way out of that one.<p>I lived with this marriage/relationship for 30 years, I think I paid my dues<p>Paid your dues? Is marriage a membership? So because you have been married for a certainly number of days, it qualifies you to have sex outside of marriage?<p>I wonder how many days qualifies one to kiss another person. Perhaps a few more days and you get to fondle them.<p>Thinking marriage is about paying "dues" is an immature understanding of committment, love, respect, fidelity, and compassion for other human beings. For as smart as you appear to be, sometimes you have a serious lack of emotional intelligence and maturity.<p>never has been,<p>Then stop complaining and act. Ethier change the way the two of you relate (by starting with your own behavior) or get out of the marriage. The solution is that simple.<p>you gleaned correctly, had nothing to do with sex, but that is all I hear day in and day out, dirty rotten whore, and how upset thinker is, we never talk about me, only her...she doesn't understand me at all.<p>Then perhaps it is time for you to stop being so selfishly concerned with you. It is your behavior that created this mess. She did not make you have an affair. She did not make you have sex with another woman. Put your own complaints aside for awile and deal with hers. Your's can wait. Once the affair is dealt with, then the two of you can address the issues that may have lead you to feel the desire to betray your marriage.<p>Seek first to understand, SNL.<p>And what is this nonsense about contacting the OW asking her to get tested? Have you been trying to contact her at all? Is this more selfish behavior on your part?<p>[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Mr. Bunky ]</p>

Mr Bunky, you hit the nail on the head.<p>Inappropriateness is the result of immaturity.<p>Hoping

Isn't the rehashing of the affair really besides the point at this time? They are getting a divorce and should be working on establishing good communications and a working relationship for splitting their assets. It seems that the focus needs to be taken off the affair(probably not the main reason this marriage is over) and onto the future.
I don't get why at this point the affair has any real bearing on what is going on. Sure contacting the OW is selfish behavior but he's out of the house and persuing a divorce, he's free to do what he wants. No one's commented on Thinker's comment to him about going on a date on Fri. nor should they, they are getting a divorce.
Bringin up and expecting recompense for the affair is kinda counter productive at this point, no?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nduli2:
<strong>Isn't the rehashing of the affair really besides the point at this time? They are getting a divorce and should be working on establishing good communications and a working relationship for splitting their assets. It seems that the focus needs to be taken off the affair(probably not the main reason this marriage is over) and onto the future.
I don't get why at this point the affair has any real bearing on what is going on. Sure contacting the OW is selfish behavior but he's out of the house and persuing a divorce, he's free to do what he wants. No one's commented on Thinker's comment to him about going on a date on Fri. nor should they, they are getting a divorce.
Bringin up and expecting recompense for the affair is kinda counter productive at this point, no?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>As someone who met my current H before the divorce was final, I certainly have no desire to discuss the validity of either of them "dating" at this point - although remember that the divorce hasn't even been filed yet.<p>My point in bringing up the renewed contact is that thinker feels like there's something going on, but can't put her finger on it. My ex did this A LOT. He'd say one thing, and I'd catch him at another. Just friends? Then why'd ya buy her a valentine gift? That kind of thing. I mentioned it because I can understand the utter frustration with someone who is saying one thing, but doing another - divorce, or lack thereof, not withstanding.

Good grief. All of this over a safe deposit box. You BOTH need serious help...you also need to be the heck from each other -- as far as possible. Neither of your are mature enough to handle the outbursts and poor behavior of the other.<p>Legal seperation sounds like the best alternative. Each of you get away from each other and live your lives. Heck, get restraining warrants on each other that state you can only come together in marriage counseling or in the pressence of a friend of the court. Both of you go to individual counseling and meet together, for only one hour a week, in marriage counseling.<p>At least you acknowledge your behavior was childish. Owning the behavior is a start.

td, I explained what happened with the spittle, it is as I said, she was violating me, now I know why people say burglary feels like rape...she came into my home, acted like the queen of sheeba, and could do whatever she wanted, refused to leave, refused to stay out of my stuff, made numerous disgusting comments about me, told me I should be dead, said maybe she would shoot me, and so forth and so on<p>Why not simply leave the situation? Go to a neighbor and call the police.<p>If it felt like burglary, would you have behaved the same way with a criminal? I certainly hope not.<p>If she is going to act this way, don't contribute to it, get away from it. You cannot possibly hope to accomplish anything in such a situation.

Isn't the rehashing of the affair really besides the point at this time?<p>It is not a issue of rehashing, it is an issue of a lack of resolution. Dispite T's poor behavior, it is quite obvious that the two of them have never resolved this issue. They CANNOT even hope to resolve anything else with that issue still lingering like a festering wound. I can understand how T feels. I would be enraged at this point as well it my recovery lacked such resolve at this point. I would be livid and probably very irrational.<p>They are getting a divorce and should be working on establishing good communications and a working relationship for splitting their assets.<p>One party may be initiating the paperwork but the divorce is not final. Do you honestly think they can establish good communication with such a large issue unresolved? They likely need to have no communication until the D is final or until the direction of this marriage is changed.<p>It seems that the focus needs to be taken off the affair(probably not the main reason this marriage is over) and onto the future.<p>Perhaps. Affairs are not typically the reason for the end of a marriage but they are very often the catalyst.<p>I don't get why at this point the affair has any real bearing on what is going on. Sure contacting the OW is selfish behavior but he's out of the house and persuing a divorce, he's free to do what he wants. <p>No he is not. He is still married. If I was to tell my wife, I plan to divorce you some day (say, 40 years from now - hypothetically), that does not grant me the right to start having an affair. One day, my wife or I will be dead. Likely one of us will live on without the other. We are then free to seek another partner. That fact does not grant us the right to act NOW on a future occurance.<p>He has free will to do what he wants but doing so is a sin, no matter what way you slice it.<p>No one's commented on Thinker's comment to him about going on a date on Fri. nor should they, they are getting a divorce.<p>Sorry, that is BS. They are not divorced. ANYONE that has any sprituality would know that it is a sin to seek another while within the bounds of marriage. If SNL is so selfish that he cannot wait until his divorce is final before he gets some, then he has to live with the eternal consequences.<p>Lastly, what an #@&*^@#$ to go on a "date" (if he indeed is doing so, I don't know) when you have not even served your spouse papers yet. So much for him trying to recover from his divorce before moving on (rebounding) to another relationship.

I can't even read this anymore...<p>I can see it. I can hear it. My mother and stepfather had these same kind of borderline abusive fights for the four years I lived in their house... after I left they became physically abusive with much physical and pychological damage done.<p>I urged my mom to leave for years... funny (not HA HA) how when the cops finally did get involved it was my mom who was cited... this kind of stuff makes me sick to my stomach. Her bottom was a DUI. That's when she realized how out-of-control it all was.<p>Now she lives in the aftermath w/ four 'damaged' children in the way of self-esteem and relationships.<p>I do not advocate marriage when it damages. <p>I am scared to see what your bottom is going to be.<p>Cali<p>[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Cali ]</p>

Mr. Bunky,
I understand your points. Completely. <p>However, I believe what nduli was saying is correct. We have hashed, re-hashed, re-hashed part 2,3 and 4 with snl for months. Most of us are of the opinion that NO - he has NOT shown remorse, OR the proper implementation of Plan A to earn his way into a better marriage. But that is truly beside the point here. We can NOT change him... forcing the issue is pointless. He understands that he SHOULD get on his knees, beg for forgiveness, and Plan A his a$$ off.. but he doesn't want to. NEITHER does THinker. <p>They are in a tug of war that noone can win unless they BOTH let go of the rope and walk towards the center so the BOTH can win. If they will at least let go of the rope and walk AWAY, they can avoid walking down the destructive path any further.<p>as nduli said ... our mission NOW is to help these 2 make it through this time so they can both come out in 1 piece.<p>IMVHO, <begging on my knees cuz this is my thread [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] > please don't hit snl over the head anymore about the A. He KNOWS what he needed/needs to do about it. I thoroughly agree that the A is not the sole reason for the failure of this relationship... there are MANY issues... that have NOT been resolved.<p>[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

Not saying they should be dating, certainly not. Both are way too dysfunctional. However, they can not resolve the affair until the divorce is final. Coming from someone who's been there, done that.
As for what I meant by what they each do now i their personal lives is neither's business. I stand by that. They are going to be divorce by the looks of it, now both need to learn to sink or swim on their own powers. Be that being stupid and involving another person, be that being wise and spending that time alone to gain insight it is now both firmly in their individual laps to do as they will. They screw up, well that's what single life is like, get used to it now if a divorce is what you want.

Luckily, their children are older and there's no young children involved. Kids their age(teens and early twenties) know what time it is and see what's going on. Do I think this is hurting them, sure it is, duh. But I also think they will be able to descern the BS from the real deal. Young adults aren't babies or youngsters.

Mr. Bunky, the person with the supposed "date" is Thinker, what is she then?<p>[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Nduli2 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nduli2:
<strong>Mr. Bunky, the person with the supposed "date" is Thinker, what is she then?<p>[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Nduli2 ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>The same applies for either. Why would it not?

Well SNL has done it again, no responsibility on his part for the hurt going on between us. Do you see any part of his threads that says he did this wrong, or that wrong. The blame once again is on me, how I act, what about you SNL. What about telling me what a rotten mother I am while I am following the ambulance to the hospital with our daughter in it. I was shaking and upset, and all I got from you was how I failed again. At the hospital getting insurance stuff, while I was in the ER with daughter with Dr. and nurse, he tells me again, how deficient I am. I finally said I will talk to you later, can't talk to him there, cause daughter was there, and didn't want to upset her more. <p>The struggle started with the issue, and SNL won't admit he did wrong. Says he will do whatever he wants to do, and invade a agreement with the bank on a safedeposit box. Deliberately did it while I was gone, and knew it took 2 people with 2 identifications. But listen to how he talks, I started the whole thing. SNL you did and the bank says the same thing, you knew, you violated the agreement. That is why it is on hold and waiting to find out what is going to happen. See how the issues go, Thinker is the bad person, and SNL places himself on top of a pedestal. I have written here how he comes here anytime he wants, tried to get him out of the house the other day, posting here on the computer and told him to leave. Wouldn't kept posting, (which was an agreement that he would not post here) is a trigger for me. He told me to my face, I will post here, I will do anything here that I please, I don't care what you want. So much anger, and name callling. The issue, and SNL is not saying the truth, is I wanted the separation too, and total separation, but if you read back on some of his posts what SNL says on plan B, he wants to modify it, and make it according to his plans. Steve Harley told him it has to be a plan B that takes both of you away from each other totally. SNL didn't like it, says he thinks Marriage Builders is forcing people to do things they don't want to do. That is why Steve Harley dismissed SNL, and said do what you want to do. SNL is a controller, and when he loses control he gets so angry and hostile. He and his mom got into a big argument about an issue of the property yesterday. SNL doesn't see that he is a controller, and forces people to see his view of things. I don't know how many times we were married, he told me I was crazy. That I didn't see things clearly. Has basically said the same about his brother which he hasn't talked to in a long time, talked I think once a year ago. Says he doesn't need his brother, they have nothing in common. He has nothing in common with his mother, nothing in common with anyone. Lost his friend, a couple of years ago. SNL got upset with this friend this year, he does our taxes, and he had our taxes done recently, and when his time ended with the taxes the friend was taking his wife and son out to lunch. SNL expressed to me why didn't he even ask SNL out to lunch. I told him maybe he planned on having lunch with his family. I know SNL was hurt I told him. I could tell with my reply he was angry at me and probably would of called me a F*c*ing B*t*h. I told him I am sorry he didn't invite you, but people have to decide for themselves who they want to go out to lunch with. SNL is a lonely man, no friends to talk to except you guys here, but no friends in the flesh. He has done this to himself. Why do I still have friends that call me today, I make friends and keep these friends. I feel SNL is so judgemental, that is why he doesn't go over his friends house, cause SNL says he doesn't like his wife. In that house the wife takes control, and SNL hates any woman to take control, he wants a woman to be under his feet, and feed him and take care of all his personal needs. Look at how he was treating me, bring food to his computer, won't eat dinner with the family, do his feet after surgery, scratch his head and pick it, he even wanted me to floss his teeth. I said no to that. He states he wants someone to shower him and to do everything for him. <p>When we were early married, I asked for a simple request from SNL. To please put his dirty underwear and clothes in the hamper. He told me to do it. He takes them off wherever and I was to walk around and pick up the clothes. He only started doing this a few years ago. So the picture SNL has painted for you guys is a bit smudgy. I worked hard during our marriage, did the finances, did the money management. Did the filing. Remember SNL when I was going through the files in Colorado, and found you placed 500 dollars in the file cabinet in a file. I was perging files and found it. He said oh yeah, I was hiding some money for later if we got desperate. This man is not telling the truth, and is not making a pretty picture, colors are getting all murky. <p>The separation is basically SNL not respecting me here, and not keeping away. His excuse is that the business runs here, and he has to have access to the business. <p>But you guys can take whatever you want with whatever SNL says. As far as the sexual thing, I have a hard time with that, for the sexual comparison SNL told me after we were having sex to have something checked out on me with my GYN. Like I was defective, and he wanted to make sure that I was okay, since the OW was more endowed in that area. I have basically gotten over the rest of the crap. The OW is no prize, she is a failure and hopefully she is working on her marriage. Yes, SNL wants her back in his life, I know that now by what you all are saying. <p>Remember, SNL has been on here for a very long time, and there was very little nice things said about me. Like he did everything possible. Not true, remember there are two sides to every story. I am a loving compassionate person, who needs to have EN met too. A good mother, and a good provider in getting things done. <p>SNL I don't like what you are saying, and not telling the truth. Things aren't this way, and you know it. See you all later.

Advice: Hot plate, mini fridge, cheap shower stall from Home Depot, hook up a shower head from the sink if need be and run it into the stall if you would have to install plumbing and can't right now. Hire a young kid, high school age to take over Thinker's receptionist and clerical duties and separate totally. This he/she said junk will never end.

yikes.... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] ... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] .... sheeeesh Thinker. No one said you were a terrible person, wife, mother, etc.

Thinker, I have to ask this. Did you ever sit down and ask your H about his feelings? Ask him about his hurt and why he strayed and why the OW was appealing to him? Please don't respond with a diatribe that includes "sexual bimbo" or anything like that. You need to understand that most of the time affairs are not about sex but about being able to relate to the other person on a feeling level. Have you ever given him the chance to feel safe with you to talk about this stuff.
Please don't respond with "but he..." Plan A was supposed to be about you. About creating a safe enviroment for the WS to pour out his feelings and fears to you. Did you plan A at any point?

T, what was the point of all that "junk" you posted? Do you honestly think dumping all that will help you to regain his love? Do you love your H? If so, why post all of that? What we think does not matter. It does not matter how many people you get on this board to agree with you. You want a win-win scenario, not a win-lose (and actually all that these "tattling" threads are creating are lose-lose).<p>T, you can chose to berate him from here to the end of time over the box and over the accident. In the end, you will be divorced and you still won't have the resolution you want on either of those two situations. Let it go. Stop living so much in the past. I know that SNL has not taken ownership for his actions but you cannot make him do so. No amount of badgering will accomplish that and in fact, the more you push, the more he is going to pull away and be defensive.<p>My wife and I argued so heatedly on Monday night that I took off my ring (only the second time in my life) and the next day she asked me to start sleeping in another bed. We had an arguement over a bunch of nonsense. We acted like two little kids that were determined to have our way. By the end of las night, we were laughing about how silly it was. We burned the heated and hateful emails we sent to each other over the situation then we went up stairs and made love.<p>I could have continued to try to win the arguement, to prove my wife wrong but in the end, what would that have accomplished? One of us would be sleeping in the other room right now and we both would be hating each other.<p>You have to pick your battles. The box and the accident are such terribly small things to have such an issue over.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Advice: Hot plate, mini fridge, cheap shower stall from Home Depot, hook up a shower head from the sink if need be and run it into the stall if you would have to install plumbing and can't right now. Hire a young kid, high school age to take over Thinker's receptionist and clerical duties and separate totally.</strong><hr></blockquote><p><strong>
Microwave, kiddie pool, sleeping bag under a bridge, brush your DAM teeth in the toilet! Anything is better than this. BOTH of you: CHANGE THE LOCKS OF THE PLACE YOU ARE LIVING IN.
Keep the other out of your personal space. Stay the HELL out of each others' personal space.<p>Next dumb question: WHY DOESN'T ONE OF YOUR OWN KIDS KNOW HOW TO HELP WITH THE BUSINESS?!?!?!</strong><p>Geez, YOU TWO, this is too ugly to continue to look at. There is no resolution. I'm sorry if this is going to sound like I'm "taking sides" - BUT thinker WILL NOT "let it go" and stop tormenting the man. SNL has made his position perfectly clear from the start. Yes, he may have "lied" to all of us somewhat about how much "contact" he has had w/ow. That is a small part of the picture, I'm sure, and he has stated that.<p>From the looks of it at any angle, *I* don't think I would have put up with her TORTURE for as long as he did. "Paid his dues??" DAMN STRAIGHT HE DID. The man could practically be knighted for sainthood for not spitting in her face before now.<p>No, I am NOT on "HIS" side....I am BS. I KNOW how this feels, but Thinker, CRIPES, GET A GRIP ON YOUR FEELINGS, your mind, and your MOUTH. You are getting waaaaay more than a LOT of us here, whose WS's are divorcing w/out even the benefit of trying to be "fair." OR WHO HAVE *NEVER* HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO TRY PLAN A, much less treat our WS's the way you are over and over again in your WARPED attempt to MAKE him change to YOUR way of acting.<p>What you are doing is NOT going to make him stop, turn around, LOVE YOU, protect you, care for you, come home, and GO BACK TO BEING THE COW-TOWED, BEATEN DOWN LITTLE MILQUE-TOAST H I believe you had pre-A. He got tired of your MANIPULATION and tongue lashing and LEFT the M, plain and simple. Get over it. Continued lashing out at him with your words is only making the future for you and your children more and more bleak.<p>And as Dr. Phil would ask, " How's that working for you? Is it bringing about the desired results?!?