WW knows that I know (this would be D-day No. 3).<p>She says she wants to work on M, that she ended A on her terms, and wants to put it in the past and move forward.<p>That is all GREAT!!!<p>Problem is she doesn't want to be honest about the past. Do I push or not?! Everyone here knows I am dying to finally hear the truth form her.<p>Help!!

Patience Conan, patience!! I think this is a GREAT THING!! Take it slowly! Work on your "us" first...leave the past for later...unless you think knowing everything will change whether or not you want to be with her. Then...you'd better hold off on the marital work until she's ready to come clean.

Conan,
Great news, but be careful what you wish for. Be prepared for a new round of painful emotions if you get the details. You won't be able to control them, but they will eventually diminish. In my reading I've found men typically want to know, women don't. How about asking her to write it in a letter to you that you won't open until she feels you are ready?
BluePop<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conan:
<strong>WW knows that I know (this would be D-day No. 3).<p>She says she wants to work on M, that she ended A on her terms, and wants to put it in the past and move forward.<p>That is all GREAT!!!<p>Problem is she doesn't want to be honest about the past. Do I push or not?! Everyone here knows I am dying to finally hear the truth form her.<p>Help!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Conan;
Although we're all "burning" inside for the details, I think the wisdom of not pushing for that now is evident from the Harleys and everyone else.
I do think you need to get some information on what assurance of no contact was made, if any, and to put in place no contact rules.
Very positive development!!! Good for you!

Conan--<p>H4F is right...unless the past will make a difference in what you decide, let it go for now.<p>It's likely you will learn what you think you want to know later...<p>For now, if you want it, work on the relationship.<p>Good luck <p>E

Conan,<p>That sounds like terrific news (don't go too nuts---you want to depend on your spouse's actions, not what's coming out of her mouth).<p>This would be a terrific time to start the MB phone counseling. Steve and Jenn don't usually do a lot of dredging up the past; they will review history to look at marital patterns that need improvement, but the focus of the program is to make the improvements stick.<p>On the other hand, the Harley's are also proponents of radical honesty---including historical. And your wife will be eventually be introduced to that. And I'm betting if you've been working on the program, and have demonstrated the ability to handle her honesty without lovebusting, she'll open up to you. And it's equally likely that by the time you're there, you probably won't really care.<p>Make that appointment... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Conan, <p>That is good news. I too have have had multiple D-Days. I think because at each time not enough of the past was disclosed to help ensure no future contact. All of the past, well, enough to satisfy you, should be disclosed, in time.<p>NOW is the time to establish the boundries and actions needed to recover, because now she says she wants to work on it. One boundry is doing what it takes to rebuild trust. that means, not doing the beheavior that indicated an A was going on, her telling you enough bout the past so you will 1. know if it is habbpening again, 2. be able to help her avoid situations and places that trigger memories, 3. create an environment where she feels ok telling you when shes thinking about OM, or OM contacted her.<p>I read in one of the Harley books that revealing the past is not so much so the BS can say gottcha, but to show the both of you that WS is truly willing to work on M, and that any recovery is built on trust and truth, not lies and still hidden secrets.<p>All of this is what I'm feeling because my WS is still keeping secrets, and I really don't know if A is continueing ( they do get better at hidding it!)<p>Right now you've got the chance, again, to establish the "extra ordinary actions", geting the past out is only one aspect...<p>BTW, there is a thread under GQII here about Why does WS get angry about telling the truth about the A, or somenting like that. Several WS give their viewpoints. <p>Good luck, slow down to speed up...<p>DRS

Wonderful news, and good advice. As a WW myself I want to touch a little more on the truths thing. <p>You have to understand that in order for her to share these truths with you she has to fully discover them for herself first. It's not easy. It's also very hard to share them for the fact that it makes us vulnerable and opens us wide open for ridicule and possible disgust. We see this in us and are afraid to have our spouses look at us that way too. Thing of it is that we don't realize you won't look at us like this, that you will respect us for caring enough to do this. Be patient, yes. Let her know that you understand that she is not ready to talk about these things. That you know it is hard for her as well, and you respect that. That when she is ready to touch that part of the healing, you are there by her side to go through it with her. Then simply hug her, let her know you are glad to have her back, and that working on the "us" is most important right now.<p>Yes, yes, actions are very important to pay attention to, and it probably would be good to find out about the no contact. Be sure to let her know when she is doing good. You can never give enough encouragment. As you want to be reassured that you are doing things right, so do us WSs. <p>You have a long hard road ahead, but it is well worth it. You have done wonderfully. Keep up the good work, and remember we are here for you.

Thanks for all the support.<p>It turns out that WW wanted to alk about it on the phone, so we dredged it all out... or so it seems.<p>I feel exhausted and so confused. I don't know what to believe anymore.

Conan,
I agree with the other posts. As former WS, we do want to put the past behind us and move forward. I would not dwell in the past. My EA ended, but before it did, I actually told the OM that I would leave my H (of 21 yrs. and 2 sons) if we had any chance...(I really can't believe I would have done that, but I did say it.) Anyway, at that meeting I finally heard that he was in a committed relationship (so was I) and that we didn't have a chance. We agreed that we really needed to end it..
My H knows its over, but he doesn't know how close I came to throwing everything away...I don't think he needs to know that...does he?

Conan, <p>Whew! That kind of talk can be very draining...<p>Good for the two of you and needed.<p>Rest now, believe in youself, your goal of a stronger M, her. Look forward, look back only to learn not to obsess, look back less and less and lessssss....<p>you both now need a moment with your own thoughts. Just keep up plan a....<p>What you are doing is good and makes the both of you special people just for doing it...<p>Take care, DRS

ashirley, <p>What then made you stop, your realizing how strong your committment was to your M, or how strong OM's committment was to his M ? If you do tell H about this, it should be for the first reason to show you thought your H was more important, not because you discovered there was no chance with the OM. <p>I'm a BS, while I could probably handle knowing I was Second choice, It is better knowing I was First, but be honest....in the end being the 1st or 2nd choice doesn't matter, being the only one in the here and now does....<p>
DRS

DRS,
I think the real reason I stopped was bc of my committment to my H and my marriage. I toyed with the idea of leaving, but I would only leave if the OM was interested in seeing if we would have a chance. <p>I love my H and didn't (don't) want a divorce, but my feelings for the OM were so strong, (I thought about him 24 hours a day for 2 years!) even though it was an EA, (we never touched) I didn't think I could live the rest of my life not knowing if the OM and I was even an option. (He had said that he was committed, but I didn't believe him.) I had to know whether or not he thought we had any chance. I am embarassed to admit, but only then, could I turn my attention back to my H and my marriage. <p>In my heart of hearts, I don't think I would have been able to actually leave my H and kids. My H and I get along great and we adore each other and I really don't think I could have followed through. But I needed to know if it was an option, before I could bring closure to the EA.

I think ashirley's story is textbook; A's end when they self-destruct somehow. Whether the OM/OW ends it or the WS ends it, or other circumstances end it. Only then is the fog lifted, and it allows the WS to re-committ...it goes to show how very little influence BSs really have over that part of the process. Of course, a good Plan A and other things make for fertile ground upon which the M can recover. Without that, the BS may end the M even if the A ended.
Just IMHO, of course.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ashirley:
<strong>...I don't think he needs to know that...does he?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>If you know it, he should know it. It's not so much the information itself as what the revealing of it demonstrates: Respect for the spouse as an equal partner in the R.<p>Conan,<p>I'm not sure exactly what all the timing should be, but I do know that Dr. Harley told me himself that we need to follow the steps outlined in SAA, including the very first item on the very first checklist: WS should reveal information about the A to the BS. His assertion was that if we do not, we are working on another A, not on rebuilding our M.<p>I know in my case there will be no forward momentum until this step is followed up to my satisfaction level. That level can be different for each individual, but for someone like me, where lack of respect from my H has always been a major marital issue and Honesty and Openness is my #1 EN, my level is everything that he knows needs to be turned over to me. Otherwise my needs for respect and honesty and openness will go unmet, and I will remain vulnerable to an A.<p>If your W won't reveal all you need to know at the point of that first step, then maybe as K says, when you get to the chapter describing the Policy of Radical Honesty and the need for it, this issue can be revisited and hopefully resolved. I'm 7 months out and still have a notebook full of unanswered questions, and my feelings for my H have deteriorated as a result of the repeated D-days and lack of full disclosure during these last 7 months.<p>So, my suggestion is to be honest with her about your need to know and how much you need to know (once you figure that out for yourself) because it could greatly affect your feelings for her as time goes on.

Conan:<p>You go, guy!<p>SC:
"Of course, a good Plan A and other things make for fertile ground upon which the M can recover. Without that, the BS may end the M even if the A ended."<p>Even with it, the BS may end the M, even if the A ended. In my case, my W's A went on for so long and some of the things she's said about M and her in M suggest to me that maybe M isn't the best thing for her. I won't live my life with someone that's just settling for me, no matter how much I lover her right now. <p>But rebuilding or ending our M should have always been as much MY choice as hers. I didn't invite Rat Meat, I mean OM, into our lives for 11 years, and so I never had the opportunity to decide until D-day. Then, I surprised my W by not saying "yes" when she asked me if she should leave then. And I think I continue to surprise her by loving her in spite of all the fog latin that she's spewed at me over the past 3 months. It's hard, though, and I not only won't promise I'll tolerate it indefinitely, I WILL promise that I WON'T tolerate it for much longer.<p>Sorry for the distraction from Conan's great news!

Conqueror:<p>"I know in my case there will be no forward momentum until this step is followed up to my satisfaction level. That level can be different for each individual, but for someone like me, where lack of respect from my H has always been a major marital issue and Honesty and Openness is my #1 EN, my level is everything that he knows needs to be turned over to me. Otherwise my needs for respect and honesty and openness will go unmet, and I will remain vulnerable to an A."<p>H&O is also my most important EN. I don't know you, but think about your last sentence here. How could you succumb to an A by not having H&O met by your H? Doesn't seem possible to me. You're not bloody likely to be able to "live the lie" very well, with an EN like that on the top of your flagpole! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Friends, thank you so much for your invaluable help today. I have great hope for the M after today, but my hope is tempered with the realism that I am dealing with serial liers. Never forget that. I felt somewhat empowered today by my ability to not be insulting, but clearly stated to both WW and OM (three way call) that I heard there promise to stay away from each other, but I didn't count on it since they were both proven liers and sang me the same exact song twice before and that they were free to do as they saw fit and I would do as I saw fit. I told them if they stick to there word that it would be great and that if they didn't... so be it.<p>Strangely, I think one item that may have contributed to the D-day No.3 was that they both realized that I would stop at nothing to uncover their A and that I had learned to play as dirty as them. I basically said that I would not tell them my methods and I made no promise to stop my snooping (again, the theme was "Everybody choose to do what they want to do"). I think the idea that I wasn't a sheep anymore and would make no agreements or promises as to there secret life was a major change in their perception of me.<p>To tell you the truth, I know I am in a better situation then before with my M, but I am not going to be that stunned if they start the cat and mouse game over again. I continue as before... Plan A, love my kids and keep moving forward. With God's grace, this M will be saved and life will be easier. If not... so be it.<p>Thank you again to all for your assistance today... you are a special group of people.

You're right, 2long, I don't think I'd actually have an A; I'd more likely separate and divorce, but that is not the only unmet need of my top 5, and none of them are being adequately met right now. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It also should be acknowledged that many WS here have said they never thought they'd have an A either, never dreamed they could have done the things they did during the A, etc. Dr. Harley says we are all wired for an affair, so it is better to acknowledge our susceptibility rather than be in denial about it.<p>[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Conqueror, <p>Well said. I'm in the same position you are and my bank in draining. After multiple D-days, and the rebuilding on secrets (while waiting and hoping to get them revealed) I can say definately that not getting it in the open early will only make it drag on and on and on, then like you say, your willingness to continue plan A will just go away....<p>My WW and I start and restart. restart because after the start, a good sensitive talk about feelings that still somehow does not reveal much more of the A, we just live on the momentum and don't work at keeping it going, bc "its painful" and to keep it going means openly talking about the A to my satisfaction of detail. So we endup being roommates until something else happens to start another talk....<p>The viewpoints of the WS's presented in this forum have helped me move a little slower on this point of disclosure, BUT IT IS MUCH BETTER TO OPEN UP ALL AS SOON AS POSSIBLE....<p>Living the reason DR H put disclosure first on the list...<p>DRS