Wow, Bramblerose, thank you SO much for sharing your story from beginning to end. You have clarified exactly why and how these MB principles work. You have shown tremendous courage and strength, not to mention integrity, and it has been of enormous comfort to me. Thanks for the encouragement to give the Harley method full throttle application. I hope this helps Joe make a wise decision, too, as to what is best for him. I am printing this one out; it's a keeper.<p>--Take care.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong> There are a number of WSs that have been shocked that their BS could still love them.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is a tangent, but my H is one of these. Problem is I DIDN'T love him and still don't, at least not in the way he thinks. He took my good-bye letter to mean that I still loved him--"I didn't know you felt that way about me." But in the letter, I was talking about our past, not the present. I sometimes wonder what, if anything, I should do about this. At the time, I didn't worry about it because I thought we were going to follow the Harley plan and we would both fall in love with each other again. So far, no joint efforts at Harley and no falling in love by me.<p>So, essentially our reconciliation was based on a misunderstanding.

Hi Conqueror,<p>This is a sad result. But I think I can understand it somewhat. It seems that there has been a depletion of your husband's lovebank that there is nothing left. I feel the same way toward my H. I can't say "I love you" on the phone anymore for two reasons 1) I don't want him to think I am being conciliatory toward his view that everything is now OK (it's not) 2) I am not sure I know what that means anymore. Do I still love him? After so much hurt? What is to love? That he takes financial care of me?<p>I guess the end result is that you and your husband need to fall in love again, as you said, and truly learn to meet each other's EN. If your WH isn't willing to commit to the Harley process, fill out the questionaires and start growing together with you, then I can see it is an issue.<p>Sorry.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Bramblerose:<strong>"Plan A is about you. Plan A is NOT about seducing your spouse back to you. Plan A is meant to be a short term period in which the BS demonstrates willingness to take responsibility for their own 50% of the marriage. The biggest part of that is to avoid lovebusters."</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I am very aware, since I have read 'Surviving an affair" "His needs Her needs" and "Love busters".Beleive it or not, I DO KNOW what plan A and plan B are all about.<p>By your own admission in throwing him out of the house because of his horrible behavior,and your crying, pleading and anger, the only thing that was achieved was to 'justify' his A in his mind. In other words you love busted like the majority of the unaware public of the MB principles.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Bramblerose:<strong>"My Plan A however, was the reason why, when forced to make a decision, that he chose me."</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You can not force somebody to do what they do not want to do (unless you point a gun to their heads). We all do what we do because we beleive it to be the right thing at the right time for us and those around us.<p>Besides I'm not to sure about your above statement considering the following statement from you:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Bramblerose:<strong>"On the other side was his beautiful OW who met all his needs that I hadn't met. But she had a nasty side, and she let my H have it every single time he tried to honor his financial or parenting obligations with me. She wanted us to have an ugly nasty divorce, and she wanted to be in charge of it. She wanted to make sure I was left with nothing."<hr></blockquote></strong><p>You got your H back because OW love busted big time and thus killed the fantasy that she built up for him in the A. Once reality ('out of the fog') hit your H straight between the eyes, he realized the mistake he had made and the feelings of guilt and loss took over, which then made it possible to begin your road to real marital recovery.<p>You proved my point that even when your H knew that you were aware that he was having an affair, instead of asking for forgiveness and ending his A with OW, he still continued with his A.<p>I'm not advocating keeping knowledge of the WS's A hidden from WS forever, just enough to help the BS control the natural tendencies to love bust and thus extend the life of the A beyond it's natural lifespan. <p>Remember what happened in 'Surviving an affair' in the case of Jon and Sue, after Jon discovered Sue's A with Greg? Did Sue end her A immediately? No, she just continued using much more hidden ways to continue to see Greg. It was only at the end when Greg had had enough of Sue and found himself another woman, that Sue started coming out of the fog.<p>So I'm still not convinced that IMMEDIATELY revealing to WS knowledge of the A at the first sign of proof positive discovery by the BS, is the wisest move. The BS needs the time to calm down and think things thru such as evaluating if the WS and the M are worth fighting for and to plan a constructive and positive strategy for handling the situation that will protect the BS and any children BS and WS have.<p>Joe<p>[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong>Joe, you seem convinced that you should try your experiment. Maybe it'll work. Keep us posted. Will you consider running this idea past a counselor? Even though you can predict what Steve H. will say about it, perhaps he can add some logic that we've missed here. You've got nothing to lose and everything to gain.<p>What do you know about OM? If he's married, can you predict if he's a (1) or a (2)? Even if he's a (2), if he's married, can you predict what affect his family or his W's family may have on him when they find out? What is his standing in the community? A prominent business man? A church deacon? How may the continuation of the affair be affected by these variables? How about his kids - will they turn against him as is often the case? Not that that is a sure show stopper, but sometimes it is.
This is the last time I'll try to talk you out of this, then I'll shut up: I think you're making a huge gamble. Yep, there's logic to your premise, but my gut tells me, based on months and months of anecdotal evidence from this forum, that it's smarter to reveal your suspicions as soon as you have solid evidence. In the meantime, sure, Plan A your butt off. But by pretending everything is OK, you're fanning the flames. So, at least attempt to communicate with her your concerns about your relationship - those issues that must be obvious.<p>WAT</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well WAT, just like you I am divorced from my xW.<p>I divorced her due to her sexual addiction compounded with a total disregard of her parental responsabilities towards our two daughters. I fought tooth and nail for custody of our daughters, and thankfully I was given sole physical custody of our daughters.<p>All of this before I was even aware of MB and Dr Willard Harley Jr methods for marital recovery. So I never got a chance to apply any of the concepts like plan A and plan B. The way I found MB was because I was web searching for books on infidelity and recovery and the MB website was among the top of the list. Since then I ordered and read the books 'Surviving an affair' 'His needs Her needs' and 'Love busters' so I DO KNOW what plan A and plan B are all about.<p>The reason why I started this thread was that the vast majority of the BSs that post in this forum, have WSs that even after 'shining the light of day' on their As, the WS continues with the A because the BS has not taken a firm stand and said to the WS that they will not continue to be married to them if they continue with their A. The WS then has no fear to continue with the A because WS, correctly, assumes that the BS is too afraid of divorcing WS and tearing the family apart.<p>Let's be honest here for a minute folks, how many started applying plan A and plan B right after they found their WS in an A and before they even knew about MB and its concepts? I'll bet that the vast majority became aware of MB and plan A and B after they love busted big time with their WS.<p>Joe<p>[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>

joe - it's pretty obvious that you have a great deal of anger. I hope you can resolve it.<p>What's your point?<p>I validate your feelings of frustration that you weren't able to restore your marriage. I wasn't successful, either.<p>Go ahead, you can vent your anger here. I'll accept it.<p>WAT<p>[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Worthatry:<strong>"joe - it's pretty obvious that you have a great deal of anger. I hope you can resolve it.
So, now I'm confused about the state of your situation. At one point, you were contemplating NOT revealing your knowledge of the affair in an effort to end it. <p>Now, you're already divorced. <p>Perhaps I'm confused.<p>What, exactly, is the situation and what are you trying to achieve?"<p>WAT </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think that you misread my initial post on this thread and assumed that I was married to a WS. So I would suggest that you read the my post just before yours for all the details of my situation.<p>Beleive it or not WAT I do not have any more animosity towards my xW. My initial anger towards my xW was more related to her failure of taking her parental responsabilities seriously and neglecting our daughters. But thankfully that is now ancient history.<p>Joe<p>[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>

Pardon me.<p>I cannot help you.<p>Good luck.<p>[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

TooMuchCoffeeMan ~<p>You may have read all the books, but I think you are still missing some understanding. And you completely misanalyzed my post.<p>Yes, my kicking my H out (it was actually a mutual decision, he wanted out - so he went willingly when I asked) was a lovebuster. I didn't know about the affair - it was only a suspicion, and there were serious reasons well beyond the affair that were behind my request for him to leave.<p>Asking him to go was a boundary to protect me. Most WSs consider BS boundaries to be lovebusters. Oh well. Plan A is not about allowing yourself to be destroyed while an A is flaunted in your face. <p>Yes, there were LBs when the A was discovered. But avoiding those LBs as you seem to believe, by refraining from revealing the knowledge and then using Plan A to convince him to come back, would not have "worked". My husband has described his A as an addiction - he simply could not walk away from her - even though there were many times over the 2 years that he wanted to just come home and make it all go away and make it right with me. You see, I have the benefit of a "unfogged" husband to talk this stuff over with. I'm not guessing or analyzing, I'm explaining the reality of what was going on in his mind - as he has explained it to me.<p>The point that everyone is trying to make to you is that in most circumstances, the A must die a natural death before there is hope of reconciliation. Even the most perfect of Plan As will NOT convince the WS to stop the affair and will NOT persuade the WS that they were wrong.<p>Plan A is how YOU survive the affair, and come out on the other side as a better, stronger person. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The reason why I started this thread was that the vast majority of the BSs that post in this forum, have WSs that even after 'shining the light of day' on their As, the WS continues with the A because the BS has not taken a firm stand and said to the WS that they will not continue to be married to them if they continue with their A. The WS then has no fear to continue with the A because WS, correctly, assumes that the BS is too afraid of divorcing WS and tearing the family apart.<hr></blockquote><p>I was not afraid to draw a boundary by divorcing my H because he would not stop his affair. I reopened my divorce when it was clear that he would not do what was necessary to be married - with the advice of Steve Harley. I Plan A'd AND divorced him. It was the night before our first court date that he came to me out of the blue and begged for another chance - and had a plan in hand for what he was going to do to give me what I needed for that to happen.<p>I did NOT force my husband to choose or to make any kind of decision. There was absolutely no manipulation involved. I simply got on with what I had to do with taking care of me, drew very strong boundaries about what I would tolerate (ie I wouldn't let him take the kids with the OW), while being kind and pleasant and agreeable about everything else.<p>Yes his OW lovebusted herself right out of his life. Thats the whole point. The affair does usually die, and it dies as a result of reality bursting that fantasy bubble, and the lovebusting starts commencing.<p>Until that happens - there is NOTHING you can do to stop the A. NOTHING. Yes, there are many BSs here that seem to think that they can Plan A their spouses into stopping the affair. Your arguement seems to be that their Plan A just wasn't good enough, and if they had REALLY done a proper plan A, that they'd have a better chance of getting their spouses home sooner. And in fact, I know that Steve Harley encourages many here to actually use knowledge of the affair to contact the OP, and let the OP know whats going on from the BSs point of view. So I know that you aren't going to get any real blanket support for your position from the Harleys. They do take each marriage individually - and apply the principles in whatever will work the best for each situation. At most I have only heard of them encouraging silence about the knowledge of the affair for short periods of time. Never on a long term basis. Silence is almost always an enabler.<p>Some marriages can't be saved. The betrayal of an affair makes it almost impossible to save any of them. Plan A and Plan B simply gives the greatest possible chance of recovery occuring. There are no guarantees.<p>When my H's A ended, and he had to decide if he wanted to go thru with the divorce, or if he wanted to reconcile. Because of my Plan A, he decided that coming home to me was an option that he wanted. If I had not worked so hard on myself, I'd be divorced.<p>My Plan A is why he came home. That's coming from HIM, thats not my analysis. If the lovebusting at the beginning had not occured, his affair STILL would have continued. He was addicted to this woman - and MOST affairs are exactly that, addictions. She was doing for him what he hadn't gotten from me. At this point, it was too late for me to start filling those needs - it wasn't going to stop the affair. IF I had started a Plan A 6 months before he met her - the affair might not have occured. But once it started, there was no stopping it. Plan A simply helped us recover our family after she was gone.<p>Thats the harsh reality. Telling or not telling about the knowledge of the affair is NOT the factor that brings MOST of them home. For some, yes, revealing the affairs is the difference - I believe Zorweb's story for example is one where the affair stopped as soon as it was revealed.<p>I agree with WAT, you sound extremely angry. And very judgemental of the BSs here that are doing the best with the cards that have been dealt them.

Thank you Bramblerose for replying and I am sorry if by doing so I am bringing up bad memories.<p>But I still have some issues with this statement you made:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>"If the lovebusting at the beginning had not occured, his affair STILL would have continued."</strong><hr></blockquote><p>In other words, are you saying that a BS has to love bust before his/her WS in order to stop the affair? Can't a BS approach the WS in a way that will let WS know that BS knows about the A without resorting to angry outbursts, selfish demands, and disrespectful judgements?<p>If love busters are what kill love between a couple and create an environment where it is possible for an affair to occur, how can love busting stop an A when it is the main enabler of an A?<p>You know I am puzzled by WAT's and your opinion that I am full of anger towards the BS's in this forum. I want to assure you both that I am NOT angered by any of the BS's (I'm not TBABY [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] you know) . It's just a little bit of frustrating reading over and over again the same kinds of stories, that got me thinking that maybe things could have turned different for some BSs if they did not love bust after they informed their WSs and gave themselves some time to plan how they were going to approach their WSs with their knowledge about the A without lovebusting bigtime and plan A'ing in the meantime.<p>I'm willing to admit that I just may be full of crap in my beleif in this area, but at least I am not affraid to examine such a beleif just because it might may be construed as heressy that violates MB dogma. And please don't interpret this statement as beign proof that I am full of anger and hatred because ,for the last time, I am NOT.<p>I will understand if you do not reply to this post and I will not think any more or any less of you or the others for doing so. I respect everyone's views, even the ones that are totally different than mine.<p>Good luck and God bless you all.<p>Joe<p>[ April 21, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TooMuchCoffeeMan:
<strong>maybe things could have turned different for some BSs if they did not love bust after they informed their WSs and gave themselves some time to plan how they were going to approach their WSs with their knowledge about the A without lovebusting bigtime and plan A'ing in the meantime.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Joe - perhaps we're in violent agreement.<p>I agree completely with your statement, above. But I also agree with Rosie and the others that the ONLY thing that a BS can do to end an affair is to reveal it.<p>My "anger" comment was not regarding other BSs here, it was my impression of your emotions regarding your former wife. I admit to not understanding from the beginning of your post that you were already divorced.<p>So, tell me if I'm wrong: I suspect your're playing a game of "what if." "What if" you had done things differently in your situation? "What if" you had held off revealing the affair until you had Plan A'd longer?<p>We will never know.<p>WAT

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>BR: "If the lovebusting at the beginning had not occured, his affair STILL would have continued."<p>TooMuchCoffeeMan: In other words, are you saying that a BS has to love bust before his/her WS in order to stop the affair? Can't a BS approach the WS in a way that will let WS know that BS knows about the A without resorting to angry outbursts, selfish demands, and disrespectful judgements?<hr></blockquote><p>No. I am not saying anyone has to lovebust. I would agree that in a perfect Plan A, that all BSs would keep the knowledge to themselves until such time that they could communicate it without LBs.<p>What I am saying is that LBs on D-Day are common, and while they are not optimal, it is unlikely that those LBs are the deciding factor in whether or not the marriage is recovered.<p>What I am saying is that even if I had done a perfect Plan A from the start, my H's affair would have continued anyway.<p>I am saying that if I had started Plan A 6 months before he met his OW, the affair might not have occured, but that once it was in the works, there was NOTHING I could do, even the most perfect Plan A, to get it to stop.<p>That being said, LBs can strengthen the affair by giving the WS justification. But that does not mean that the absence of LBs will conversely bring them back to the marriage.<p>The ONLY chance for reconciliation comes after the affair is over. There is a better chance of the affair ending if it is revealed - secrecy keeps the affair going - public knowledge and consequences help it to die.<p>Everyone is going to LB at some point. We are all human and make mistakes. In general if the overall Plan A has been good, then AFTER the affair dies, the WS may consider the marriage an option. That's all that most can hope for.<p>But even the most perfect Plan A does not guarantee that the WS will come home after the affair dies.<p>Plan A helps the BS survive - and gives the best odds for recovery. There aren't any guarantees.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Worthatry:<strong>"My "anger" comment was not regarding other BSs here, it was my impression of your emotions regarding your former wife. I admit to not understanding from the beginning of your post that you were already divorced."</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Like I said in my previous post regarding my anger towards my xW, it's ancient history .In fact, the one significant contributing factor in my overcoming my hatred towards my xW was my two daughters that I had with her. I consider them my salvation from the deep hatred I felt towards her, not just because of what she did to me with her multiple infidelities but more so because of her reckless neglect and abandonment of our two young daughters. Thankfully I have moved on emotionally and am now involved with a wonderful lady, whom both my daughters approved off, and who was also a BS in her previous M. Now the strange thing is that now that I am involved with another woman, my xW has become jealous (my daughters have told me that she constantly asks them what I do with my GF) and has asked me out on several occasions, all of which I turned down since I am not interested in reconciling with her at all. So for the time beign my daughters are happy and I too am happy [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Worthatry:<strong>So, tell me if I'm wrong: I suspect your're playing a game of "what if." "What if" you had done things differently in your situation? "What if" you had held off revealing the affair until you had Plan A'd longer?"</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, it was a 'what if' but not so much for in my case, but for the vast majority of cases where the WS is so in the fantasy of the A (fog) that they don't care about the BS finally knowing.<p>You know somebody here in this forum at one time said that the efficacy of plan A and/or plan B depends on the timing of their execution. If the A was in it's peak then it was not very likely that they would have any effect, but if the A was in it's last days, then that was the best time it had the greatest chance of succeding.I just wish I knew who it was so I can give her/him credit.<p>Joe<p>[ April 21, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Bramblerose:<strong>"But even the most perfect Plan A does not guarantee that the WS will come home after the affair dies.<p>Plan A helps the BS survive - and gives the best odds for recovery. There aren't any guarantees."</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Agreed BR. There are no guarantees in life at all, only opportunities that when seized may yield a desired result.<p>But under what circumstances does a BS stand a better chance of carrying out close to a perfect plan A, before d-day or after d-day?. <p>Before d-day, the BS has at least the hope that the WS will end the A once BS reveals knowelege of it's existence, and even though it is nothing but a hope on the part of the BS it just might be enough to carry out a close to perfect plan A so that when BS decides to anounce d-day to the WS, the A may be in it's last days of it's existence and the WS may be finally able to see and appreciate the changes in the BS as attractive enough to consider giving the BS and the M another chance. And even if the timing is not good and the WS is still deep in the fog, the BS now has the option ,after implementing plan A for 6 months, of going straight to plan B if the WS wants to continue with the A after d-day. And let's remember that it is easier to spy on a WS when the WS is unaware that the BS knows about the A, and so it is easier to see if the A is still strong or dying fast. <p>But after d-day the BS may confront a WS that is still so much 'in the fog' that WS will not care and continue the A unabated. At this time the initial implementation of plan A will be extremely difficult for the BS to carry out succesfully in light of the disrespectful behavior from the WS. Is it any wonder that Jennifer Harley has been rumored in saying that most BS can only do a good plan A for no longer than 6 weeks instead of the desired period of time of 6 months? The BS feels like a doormat and that is how is treated by the WS. Then the BS love busts by angry outbursts and the WS accuses BS of beign a phony for supposedly trying to show 'changes' that were never real.<p>What do you think?<p>Joe<p>[ April 21, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>

<<You folks also forget that if your WS is in an A and beleives that you are none the wiser, they are vulnerable to subtle attacks of guilt by you in the form of a hug acompanied by "I love you so much and one of the reasons why I love you is because you have always been faithful to me and you know what it would do to our family if you were not". >><p>In answer to my question this weekend about how he actually felt while carrying on with OW, he said "I felt really guilty sometimes." Those feelings, however, did not come even close to leading him to end the OEA. And because it was such a powerful fantasy, it was unlikely it would have died a natural death anytime soon (it had already gone on for year). The power of guilt did not even come close to competing with the power of the fantasy.<p>We both entered Plan A together, which is the only way I could see doing it. (During the previous times, we pretty much just repressed the issue and moved on). I am simply not built for a one way relationship anymore, so could never had harbored the knowledge of the affair, and just worked on a "Plan A" alone. But that's me.