since the OM is in prison, and there are certain rules for calls, visits, etc. (and I won't go into the details here), I could, very easily, by writing to the warden, prevent her from visiting or getting calls and/or mail from him, and would probably get him into some hot water. . I could basically make her Persona Non Grata at the Bureau of Prisons, virtually ensuring the she could not contact or visit him ever again. (I've checked on all the rules and laws with an attorney, so I know I can do this)<p>So, the question is, is it in my best interest to do so? or will it only be seen as a major LB and cause me more trouble?<p>I've refrained from doing it up to now on the basis that I really only want my wife back if she wants to come back, not because I interfered with her A in such a way that it would make it hard to continue it, but boy it's tempting!
Comments?

So, if I understand you correctly, the prison rules regarding communications to persons outside the prison are being violated by the OM and your wife .... YES?<p>IF I understand you correctly, my vote is YES ... report this to the authority.... you could do it anonymously ... not only is this an affair related issue for you personally, BUT it could also be a public safety issue ... if prison rules are being broken .... for ANY purpose .... report what you know.<p>IMHO<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Hmmmmmm - a good reason to start a new thread, huh space? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Off the cuff, I'd say this MAY depend on whether she'll know you interfered or not. HUGE LB if she does. Neutral if she doeesn't.<p>Perhaps this represents a situation where you should violate the "non-inteference" rule.<p>I say do it, LB or not. You may not help your marriage, but you'll be doing her a big favor in the long run. My guess is he's using her and he'll find some other method once she's not available. On the other hand, how absolute is the communications cut off?<p>My recommendation is based, in part, on the bizareness of carrying on an EA with a prisoner. What the heck is she thinking? Oh, I forgot, she's NOT thinking.<p>WAT

Aside to Spacecase:<p>Did you ever see the movie Cape Fear .....?<p>
ugh ... nasty prisoner released ... makes *nice* with daughter of attorney who put him behind bars.<p>>>>shudder<<<<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]<p>[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

Hey Pepper - I've BEEN to Cape Fear - used to live near there - stood right on the point. My second son was born in Cape Fear Memorial Hospital. I never understood why a hospital wanted the word "fear" in its name. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks to all for the feedback (I guess a new thread does elicit more response sometimes, right, WAT?)<p>In order;
Pepper; yes prison rules were broken. Not so sure I could do it anonymously, but as my attorney confirmed, in an internal investigation of the incident (at the prison) my information would be handled as a "confidential informant" so theoretically, neither the inmate nor my wife should find out about it. But u never know.
I'm not sure I could couch it as a "public safety" issue, it's a minor rule of internal prison mgmt. but yes, it's the law.
And yes, he will get one one day....there's always that...some risk, but 2010 is a long way off unless he wins an appeal...but there is that.<p>WAT; I can look at it as one major LB, but an LB that will probably prevent me from committing many, many LBs which I do every time I bring up the subject of ending it, etc. It's happened a LOT!
The communications cutoff should be pretty thorough. Prisoners cannot take incoming calls, only outgoing and to numbers previously approved and signed for as approved by the intended recipient. Of course, I have no idea if they enforce no call-forwarding or that kind of thing, which could be a workaround. But it seems like too easy a workaround for them (BOP) not to control it in some way.
Visiting would definitely be dead forever. This one is hard to get around because scrutiny of the visitor is MUCH closer than for calls. She'd basically have to assume a new identity, and have it stand up to the screening process. Very tough to do.
And correspondence would be monitored from then on, because of the violation, and certainly no mail coming with her name(s) would be accepted, nor could he send any to her. This is probably the easiet to work around as she could have someone send and receive the mail for her with another name/address.
What is she thinking? GOOD QUESTION?!?! (he's an old boyfriend from teens...locked up until 2010 for drug distribution, second time, with 2 failed marriages under his belt...real jewel, this one!)

If your children were younger, I would consider it a safety issue because of the possibility of an ex-con being in their lives if and when he gets out, but since they are nearly all grown, my instinct is to leave it alone for the time being and instead concentrate primarily on whether you want to remain married to someone carrying on an extramarital R with an inmate.<p>It is most complicated if you DO want to have a R with her. On the one hand, a case can be made that you want to protect your W from dangerous liaisons simply because you care about her and what is in her best interest aside from the difficult emotional issues and the impact on the marital R. And even though your children are fairly mature, there is still the impact it could have on them, and you definitely have an obligation and interest there.<p>There is a chance that despite any initial negative reaction that your W could someday appreciate that you helped to save her from herself, somewhat like disrupting her access to drugs and/or drug dealers if she was a drug addict. In a state of rationality, she would see the act of love it was. But there's no way to know if she'd get there for sure. It's probably safe to assume she'd be furious initially, but whether she'd stay that way and resent it forever, who knows?<p>With such complicated issues involved, it's probably going to boil down to your conscience and what you feel YOU can live with in the long-term. Something that might help you figure it out is to imagine if it was your sister having this R. That should at least help get any self-serving interests out of the equation and get down to what feels like the "right" thing to do.

Oh, geez, Conqueror, my instinct, no matter WHO was having the relationship, would be to try to end it. A convict, second time in federal prison, and for drug distribution and violation of parole (owning a gun)...2 failed marriages, with one wife hiding from him so he won't even contact his daughter, and the other wife only reluctantly agreeing to let their daughter visit him...this is an unsavory fellow. I wouldn;t want anyone in my family associating with him.
The ONLY thing that has stopped me are possible repercussions to my W (at first all kinds of things occured to me like might be blackmailing her to help him), whether I should really interfere or let it end on it's own, what the emotional impact could be, who knows...fear of future repercussions, he might have "friends" he can contact...I don't know!
To be frank, I fully expected the more experienced MBers to go against the idea...I'm surprised at the support it's gotten. Not sure what to think now...

SC:<p>You know, there's another, related, way to look at this. If you care about someone's involvement with an inmate, you'd do what you could to end it as a favor to them.<p>If you do this and she finds out, she may leave you. But even if she does, you may have saved her from a miserable existence with the guy (maybe even a life of crime as an accomplice) when he gets released. The closer their continued R gets to his release date, the less likely she will be to get over him before he gets out and comes calling for her. If she's forced to separate from him now, 8 years later his calling on her could very likely be of much less interest to her.<p>I'd go for it, if it were me.

That's my instinct too 2Long. But this is delicate; it involves breaking the law, and it deals with people who may or may not be able/have tendencies to be violent and/or seek retribution, it's not as clear-cut as, say going to the OMs wife, ro something like that.
I'm seeking legal advice on this (as I have done already) and find the "right" way to do it to minimize the potential repercussions.
And there's always the emotional repercussions it'll have on my wife that I have to deal with as well...actually glad to deal with those, IF the effect is to "wake up", but what if the loss of this EA leads her to seek another one outside the M? What if she suspects/finds out it was me and decides it was too much? many what ifs to think about before diving in.
I am getting close to doing it, though. I just want to do it right.

SC,<p>I didn't say it was easy. In fact, totally the opposite. I think all you can do is weigh all the possible outcomes, the worst-case scenario in each one, and figure out what you think will cause the least regret if the worst happens. It just seems to be one of those situations that goes beyond the usual A issues and kind of out-trumps it.<p>I had to deal with an inmate issue regarding a parent and child (parent the inmate). A counselor tried to tell me it was in the child's best interest for me to facilitate visits to this incarcerated parent. This child was also a victim of a crime committed by this parent (as was I). Sorry, everything in me said "No way", and I dropped that counselor like a hot potato. Nothing turned out well in this particular case, but at least I don't have it on my conscience that I enabled that destructive relationship.<p>Compared to your situation, mine was a piece of cake. I only had to do nothing. You have to actually decide whether to DO something. Mine was passive. Yours is active. Easier to stand still than to take action.

An interesting point came up on another thread around this issue:<p>When an A ends "reluctantly", meaning through no desire or willingness of the WS/OM, but through discovery by the OMs W, or another such external act, what have we seen when this happens?<p>In the Harly books, this scenario is presented as a classic opening to recovery. Whatever the reason the WS decides to come back and start recovery, recovery can work. Right?<p>It'd be interesting to get feedback on whether these "reluctant" or "unintended" recoveries have other difficulties or issues involved; are they harder? are they less likely to succeed? are they less "honest"?, do they last?<p>Thoughts?

SC,<p>I responded on your other monster thread... LOL.<p>but regarding your last question, all I can say is, stay tuned and I will let you know how it turns out. :-)<p>Of course, I am still debating whether to tell the OM's W in hopes that she will up her gam in keeping an eye on him. Of course, it may backfire in that she boots him out and then he is more free to try to get my WW back into the A.<p>For now, I am holding off and note telling OM's W until my WW and OM start the A again. I really don't hold out a ton of hope that they will stop, but I do have SOME hope and that is more than I had a few days ago.

Hi SC,
This is a complicated issue with lots of possible repercussions. My gut tells me to get her off the list of people that can see the inmate...the affairs "over" according to her,anyway. Sometimes we really do need to be saved from ourselves. And perhaps this is a situation. She feel that she can't just abandon the OM, but it sure does help when other people are trying to help make that happen. She doesn't have to take the blame, so to speak.<p>In the long run, I really don't think your wife wants to be with this convicted felon. By "allowing" her to continue seeing him, aren't you in someway enabling her to carry out this potentially dangerous activity...dangerous to you, your children and her self.<p>It might be different if he was a regular guy, but this is a different situation. I think she really needs you to step up to the plate and not allow or enable her to particpate in an EA with this guy. You really need to save her from herself...plus, remember, she said its over, so if she finds out, you can tell her, that she had told you it was over, but you wanted to help her follow-through bc you knew it would be hard for her...or something like that.
Anyway, it's my two cents.
Good luck!

SC,
One other thing. I don't think its a huge issue why an/the EA ends. In my case, it kind of ended bc the OM said that we didn't have a chance...well, those were probably the most important words ever said to me, by anyone. They saved my marriage..so what if they hurt my feelings a bit. I'm over it and my marriage is getting back on track! So don't worry why it ends, or why she comes back..there are always multiple reasons...even in my case, as I don't think I really would have followed through..but I'm sure glad I wasn't tested any more than I was.
Take care. You aren't impulsive. You'll do the right thing.

You are a joy and a wonder to have around, ashirley!
Interesting point about "helping" her to end it without feeling like she abandoned him. Very much her way of thinking...and the kind of thing that troubles her immensely. She's been making a decision about breaking up with her " business partner" for about 2 years. Thing is, she was a friend before she was a partner, so my W agonizes over whether she should break up the partnership, b/c she feels it may jeopardize the firnedship. Alomst 2 years! and she KNOWS she has to do it!<p>Yes and I also agree that what causes the A to end is probably not critical. Even if she found out I had a hand in it, if she comes back to reality, it'll be something she will get over...it may make me celibate for a few months...but what the heck...it's almost like that anyway! ;-)

Just a quick update; my Attorney is trying to figure out a way to report the issues to BOP, and try to shield my W from possible prosecution; he said he'd get back to me in a day or 2.
I honestly said, look, we need to end this, if we can do it without fear of prosecution, great, but if we can't, we need to do it anyway...we'll see.

OK, I need the final shove out of the airplane...<p>My attorney says we can report this, get WW off of call/mail/visit lists at prison, pretty much disable all comm w/OM. (and it'll stay that way practically forever. As far as the Bureau Of Prisons (BOP) is concerned, she'll be Persona Non Grata) However, there is a SMALL risk of her bieng prosecuted for this. Lying on the "visitor Form" is tantamount to perjury. BUT, he has NEVER heard of anyone being prosecuted for this unless they lied in order to "facilitate the furtherance of a criminal activity" or some such law-speak. The risk of either of them ever finding out I was involved is very slim as well. My info would be treated as that of a "confidential informant".<p>Consensus before was that I should report it and end this. With the small risk of prosecution for my WW, is it still the consensus?<p>[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

SC:<p>What would be the punishment if she's found guilty? Guess this would have some bearing on what you decide. On the other hand, what if she is prosecuted and you stand by her in her defense? Don't want to mean to suggest that you get her into trouble so you can be the hero and get her out of it. If she DID find out, you'd be toast!<p>My vote would be to go ahead and stop the contact. Any others?

Well, the maximum penalty if "5 years and $250.000", but you know how these things are. My attny feels quite confident that they would not prosecute a woman for wanting to see her "boyfriend". Likely he'll be banned from receiving visits for some months, maybe have his phone priviliges curtailed, and she'll be banned from visits or contact with any BOP facility forever. No more.<p>I'd have no choice but to come to her defense if she got into trouble, though. I guess that could score some points...but I'm failry confident it won't come to that.<p>Rather, I'll have to deal with a majorly foul mood for the forced separation that she won't be able to talk to me about without confessing she tried to have contact...I'll take it!