Last year on Oprah Dr. Phil was talking to a couple, H had cheated years before, W was not "getting over it". BS in pain and confusion, not even understanding herself why she was still unable to "get over it". WS sitting there with an "attitude". He said something like this---"I did it, its in the past, and there is nothing I can do about it". The look on his face was one of indifference to the fact that his wife is still suffering. This rubbed Dr. Phil the wrong way, he raised his voice and blasted WS spouse with this--"YOU got her in to this mess, now you can d@mn sure help her get out of it"!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know this is what has got me stuck in pain and fear and eventually shows up as LB/anger/cold/distant. H doesnt GET it. He may never GET it. I have to put my finger on EXACTLY what I need from him for me to "get over it". I thought I had but maybe not. I have a lot of trouble asking for what I need from H. H has trouble delivering and "getting it". H's indifference/silence causes me WAY MORE PAIN than the infidelity itself.

I think the deeper the pain, the more the WS feels the guilt...and that adds to the original resentment etc... Like it's YOUR fault they feel bad (guilty) because YOU can't get over it. Sounds to me like someone who hasn't really grown and learned from their mistake...or atleast hasn't learned the skills necessary for dealing with difficult emotional situations.

Replaced,<p>Thank you for bringing this up.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>--"YOU got her in to this mess, now you can d@mn sure help her get out of it"!!!!!!!!!!!!! <hr></blockquote><p>How I wish the WS would GET IT! What Dr. Phil told that man is right on the money. If the WS would only say he/she is sorry then ACT in such a way to prove that they are.<p>Take care,
Estes

You are welcome ESTES, it hit me right between the eyes today, why I am still in so much pain. I saw a show on PBS today that gave me some more insight, will post in a minute. There are some things H could do for me that would help me heal VERY QUICKLY!!!! I need to make certain that he truly understands what these things are so he has the OPPORTUNITY to give me those things. I cant go around blaming him for not helping me if he in reality is unclear about what it is I need. I have to PLAY FAIR!!!!!!

Dr. Phil also said (I am paraphrasing here), "The wayward spouse cannot expect the betrayed spouse to "get over it" until the betrayed spouse feels as though they have been JUSTLY COMPENSATED for their pain. It is the responsibility of the Wayward to do whatever is necessary to heal the Betrayed."<p>Catnip =^^=

Oh, how I long to be hugged without initiating it. How I long to be told "I Love You" out of the blue. How I long to make love to my wife.<p>I would love to understand the mentality of those that commit the adultery, and then fail to put it right with what I see as simple and natural responses.<p>I read stories on here about how long recovery can take. How it sometimes never happens. How sometimes it gets really great but takes many years.<p>HELP ME!!!!

In regard to this lack of insight problem and not dealing with the A, Dr. Harley told me we were working on the next A. Without insight on his part into what he did, why he did it, how to avoid doing it, history will just repeat itself. And because my need for his help in healing is going unmet, *I* am vulnerable to an A as well. So, basically in this type of situation, you are not rebuilding the M, you are laying the foundation of the next A.<p>Dr. Harley said I needed to tell my H this and tell him we needed to read SAA together and follow the steps to have any hope of recovery.

<< H's indifference/silence causes me WAY MORE PAIN than the infidelity itself. >><p>Have you tried telling him exactly this? Sure, it's hard to point EXACTLY at what you need, because chances are you aren't exactly certain yet. Let him know that as you figure this out you will share it with him, and that you need him to share with you in this. Meaning, when you ask questions, you need the answers. Let him know that although the answer may hurt you, the not knowing will hurt all the more. He needs to learn that part of opening up requires this, and this is all part of the healing. The pains will ease, and the issues that haunt the two of you will subside as they are put to rest in discussions like this. What he needs to know is that when he sees his answers hurt you that what he needs to do is something simple like hug you and tell you he loves you and he is sorry. PERIOD. It's not a time for bashing, rehashing, but for clearing the air fully.<p><< I think the deeper the pain, the more the WS feels the guilt...and that adds to the original resentment etc... Like it's YOUR fault they feel bad (guilty) because YOU can't get over it. Sounds to me like someone who hasn't really grown and learned from their mistake...or atleast hasn't learned the skills necessary for dealing with difficult emotional situations. >><p>Although I agree that this could and is true in some situations, in others it may not be so. In any event, I believe that there is a lot behind not knowing the skills necessary for dealing with difficult emotional situations. <p>It’s sometimes hard to understand/see how causing the BS more pain with answers and more truths will put to rest a lot of the anger and frustration that is felt which would otherwise be left to stew when these questions and truths are not put into real light.<p>We (WSs) have hurt you so much already, now in order to help you we have to hurt you more? I know this works, because I have been there and worked through this, but to answer these powerful questions is not a pretty thought. Sure, we want to be done with it. You can't say you don't. It's natural. It's just a matter of continuing to learn HOW to work together PRODUCTIVELY to get past it TOGETHER.<p>I hope this helps. My best to you. Take care.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by manfromtheuk:
Dear MFUK:
I am a WS who is out of long A but only 5 weeks of real time away for OP so I fall in and out of WD at times. However,I've made huge strides getting back to H. I don't have any real answers for you but I'd like to say this, as a WS my opinions don't mean much to many of the BS on this site. Maybe our experiences are too different and their pain too great, I'm not really sure. But if I could offer you one bit of advice as wayward wife trying to reconnect with H and save M, listein, listein, listein, even if the WS feeings don't make alot of sense to you and you disagree. Share you feelings but still, listein. We can't make it right with H as you say you want your W to do until we have OP out of our system and that includes mentally. Whatever you do, especially in the beginning, don't blame OP. Hold wife accountable for her actions and really, don't focus on her OM, although it's easier to hate him, too much focus on this hate will hurt your M ultimately. This will push WS to defend him. Blaming may make you feel better, but it will hurt your M recovery.
You and your W need to heal. That may sound selfish, but A's pain the WS as it does the BS.

My ex-H was never remorseful and never demonstrated any empathy for my hurt regarding his first A's. He had the attitude that he was back, I was lucky he chose me, and I should get on with it. When he first approached me for reconcilitaion he did ask me what I needed from him, in answering him I had no idea I should ask that he act empathetic along with the other things I needed (i.e., no contact, counseling, audits of his financials at will, etc.).<p>I remember a few times when in deep depression I asked him why he never apologized or why he acted so indifferent when I felt so terrible and hurt. He simply said that it was my problem and I should get over it.<p>Well, I guess what Harley says is true, you can gage the success of a recovery by the remorse and empathy the WS feels for the BS ... because here I am again, with my H having had another A and us divorced.<p>My H never did "GET IT".<p>Jo<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

CM:<p>"I've made huge strides getting back to H. I don't have any real answers for you but I'd like to say this, as a WS my opinions don't mean much to many of the BS on this site. Maybe our experiences are too different and their pain too great, I'm not really sure."<p>I don't think your expeeriences are any different from many of the people that post to this forum. The primary difference, AT THE MOMENT, is that you haven't revealed your A to your H. When you do, you will probably realize that you have a great deal in common with other WSs on this forum, and a great deal to offer BSs like in this thread regarding your own experiences. Think about it.<p>"We can't make it right with H as you say you want your W to do until we have OP out of our system and that includes mentally."<p>The BS can be a big help in getting the OP out of the WS's system. But they have to know about the A in order to have the ability.<p>"Whatever you do, especially in the beginning, don't blame OP. Hold wife accountable for her actions and really, don't focus on her OM, although it's easier to hate him, too much focus on this hate will hurt your M ultimately. This will push WS to defend him. Blaming may make you feel better, but it will hurt your M recovery."<p>In my case, I never "hated" the OM. I don't like him, and nobody will ever persuade me to like him (because that would require I contact him, and I have no desire to in my entire lifetime). ...oh yeah, and if a small asteroid craters his home town while he's there, I won't cry. But that isn't the same as "hate." [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Complete Honesty, Openness, and Frankness, FOREVER!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

IMO, we would WANT the WS to help... HOPE the WS would help... and it would probably speed recovery along IF the WS would help... but it's NOT necessary for healing in the BS. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"The wayward spouse cannot expect the betrayed spouse to "get over it" until the betrayed spouse feels as though they have been JUSTLY COMPENSATED for their pain. It is the responsibility of the Wayward to do whatever is necessary to heal the Betrayed." <hr></blockquote><p>IMO, If you are waiting and expecting the WS to fix it for you, it probably won't happen. <p>Those of us who NEVER reach recovery - who NEVER have the oppurtunity to rebuild, still have to RECOVER and HEAL without the help of our WS. It's incredibly tough, but a very growing and strengthening experience. <p>So if your WS is home, do NOT expect their help. WISH for it, PRAY for it, ASK respectfully for it in a POJA, but you can not demand it. Your counselor (or Dr. Phil, or Dr. Harley) can demand it for you.<p>my 2 cents... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

Faith1:<p>"IMO, we would WANT the WS to help... HOPE the WS would help... and it would probably speed recovery along IF the WS would help... but it's NOT necessary for healing in the BS. "<p>There's wisdom in that statement and your post in general. I think the point is that the WS "helping" is for recovering the M, not healing the BS. That IS up to the BS to do. In my case, my fears are that my WW won't even do all that's necessary to assure me that the A or the withdrawl in our M that led to her decision to have the A won't repeat at some point in the future, but that I WILL have "healed myself" with a good plan A (not the greatest plan A, but improving daily!). Without a "healed M", though, I wonder if I'll prefer a DV over a potential future A.

Have you read the book by Willard Harley "Surviving an Affair"? In chapter 4 'How do Affairs Usually End' in the section "I'm Disappointed You Don't Trust Me" gives an example of just such a situation. Unfortunately Harley believes that when the WS says "Unless you can put what I did behind you, I'm afraid we don't have much of a future", it usually means the affair is still going on. It's an effort to protect the secret life. <p>This book has a lot of tactics and reasonings that the WS uses. I highly recommend it. There is also a plan of recovery in it.

Thanks 2long for getting my point. Upon further thinking... there is definitely a difference in BS "healing" and true "marital recovery".<p>Here's a link and a snippet to one of Harley's Q&A letters about "forgiving and forgetting", which mentions the contributions necessary by the WS (remorse, meeting EN's POJA, etc.)<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>as you have noticed, when you don't forgive someone, it can "eat you up." It's not healthy to keep resentment bottled up inside of you. <p>The vast majority of couples I counsel who have been through the horror of an affair, have better marriages after the affair than before. It's because the affair jolts them into recognizing the need for building an affair-proof marriage, and the safety precautions they use help them create compatibility and love. But has the offended spouse forgiven the offender in these marriages? Yes and no. <p>...<p>Forgiveness in these situations means thinking about the person as if the offense never took place. That is extremely difficult to do. The offended spouse usually thinks, what can he or she do to make it up to me. How can I be compensated for the pain I've suffered. <p>To make matters worse, whenever a wayward spouse sees me for counseling there is rarely regret and rarely a willingness to compensate the offended spouse. They usually ask to be forgiven, but that doesn't mean he or she is deeply remorseful. It usually means that he or she doesn't want us to bring up the subject anymore, or require a change in behavior. In other words, the wayward spouse wants the pain suffered by the offended spouse to be ignored or forgotten. <p>...<p>In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated. <p>... <p>So let's talk about adequate compensation. What could the offending spouse possibly do to compensate for an affair? <p>...<p>I've made the point in His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-proof Marriage that spouses usually have affairs because their emotional needs are not being met in the marriage. <p>...<p>But in most cases, neither spouse is meeting the other's needs prior to the affair. The reason that there were not two affairs is often a lack of opportunity for the offended spouse. And sometimes when there is that opportunity, there actually are two affairs. <p>...<p>One compensation for the affair, therefore, is for the offending spouse to learn to meet the emotional needs of the offended spouse. But if I can also motivate the offended spouse to do something that should have been done all along, meet the offending spouse's emotional needs, the arrangement seems more fair to the offending spouse. There is not only compensation for the affair, but the conditions that created the affair (unmet emotional needs) are removed. The marriage is restored and affair-proofed. <p>Forgiveness comes much more easily in these cases because the change has compensated for some of the pain that was suffered, and the offender is usually forgiven by the offended. Technically, it isn't really forgiveness. It's a compensation for the pain of the affair. <p>...<p>Using this meaning of forgiveness, the person asking to be forgiven must first demonstrate an awareness of how inconsiderate the act was and how much pain his or her spouse was made to suffer. Second, he or she must express some plan to assure the forgiver that steps have been taken to avoid the painful act in the future. <p>... <p>He should learn how to meet your important emotional needs, but do it in a way that would not cause him to suffer. The Policy of Joint Agreement guarantees that. Whenever you follow that policy, you learn to please each other in ways that are mutually enjoyable. I'd say that's reasonable compensation, wouldn't you? <p>...<p>Now you are trying to create a new understanding with your husband, where he will agree to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty. Good for you! Apparently, he has not yet agreed to these important issues, and that has a great deal to do with your reluctance to forgive him. I'm sure you will not find forgiveness in your heart until he agrees to be honest with you, and to take your feelings into account in the future. <p>But forgiveness will be much easier after you are convinced that your husband considers your feelings whenever he makes a decision (follows the Policy of Joint Agreement), is completely honest with you about everything (follows the Policy of Radical Honesty), and is meeting your important emotional needs. For you to be convinced, he must not only agree to these changes, but he must also demonstrate his commitment by living them for a while. Forgiveness may still require a bit of generosity on your part, but if he makes these changes, I think you'll be able to handle it. When that happens, the burden of resentment you are carrying will be lifted, and the love you have for each other will be restored.
<hr></blockquote><p>anyhoo... I believe you can heal and SHOULD strive to heal without remorse and compensation from the WS, but you are right in that the marriage will never fully recover without it (the remorse and compensation from the WS).

Like I told my H, I can heal just fine without him, BUT I am not going to leave my heart open and bleeding forever waiting for him to do what it takes to be INSIDE my heart when the wound is finally closed.<p>My heart is healing all the time, but if he doesn't get with the program and do the hard work of MARITAL recovery, then my individual recovery will take place regardless, and he may find himself OUTSIDE the sutured and healing wound. And if there is good healing taking place, I'm not likely going to want to open up the wound all over again in order to allow him in when he chose to stay out.<p>Another aspect of that analogy is that wounds can become infected to the point that they have to be incised and drained. All the infectious material has to be cleaned out so good clean healing can take place. If he doesn't stand with me and assist me in this delicate operation of dissecting out the infection HE put there, then I will be forced to take antibiotics (more drastic measures) in order to control the infection. And as we all know, antibiotics can kill the "good" bacteria (my feelings for my H) along with the "bad".<p>This is just basic human nature, translating the emotional into the physical, but it is essentially the same process. If someone who hurt you doesn't do something to help you heal from the hurt they inflicted and take measures to avoid doing it again, you instinctively know you are in danger from that person and will defend yourself accordingly. Since betrayal is a weapon that can only be used in the hands of one you love, the most natural method of defense is to eliminate the part you have control over in the equation--the love.<p>Just as your physical body will fight off infection without conscious direction from you, your spirit will protect you the same way. Dr. Harley uses the Love Bank concept to explain the process. No matter how selfless you may try to be, the Love Bank drainage will go on regardless as long as your partner is LB-ing you and not meeting your most important emotional needs.<p>Probably THE most important EN a BS has is to find emotional security in a R that no longer has any, and that can only come from WS disclosure, remorse, insight, and nurturing, and if that is lacking, then your spirit will provide the security you need by building internally what the WS won't build externally.<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Some of Dr. Harley's "stuff" on resentment....<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
It's true that the better your memory, the more difficult it will be to overcome resentment. That's because resentment is tied to memories, and if you forget the painful event, the resentment is lost along with it. One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us. <p>Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster. <p>I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational. And when a spouse comes to me with unresolved feelings of resentment about something their spouse did in the past, I tend to put it on hold and focus on issues that prevent mistakes of the past from recurring. I ask them to trust my judgment, and see what happens to the resentment when the marriage has a chance to become fulfilling. In almost every case, resentment fades, as I predicted. While the painful memories are not entirely forgotten, the most recent marital experiences which are fulfilling and enjoyable, dominate a person's thinking, and resentment becomes weak and infrequent. <p> <hr></blockquote>

It is the present and future I am talking about. The A may be in the WS's past, but it is very much in the BS's present and future ESPECIALLY if it is not processed appropriately.<p>If the WS does not recognize the BS's right to have a window on the A--the REALITY of their very own life during that period of time, then there is a present and future contempt and lack of respect issue in the M.<p>If the WS does not reveal to the BS the necessary insight into the A, its causes and prevention (and this is done through open and honest discourse), then that very much affects the BS's present and future as well. No insight=Very likely a subsequent A, so continued present and future danger for BS.<p>It is not about resentment. How can you resent something from the past you have no knowledge of? It is the withholding and denial in the present that is negatively affecting the present and future of the R. The BS joining the WS in denial will resolve nothing.<p>My H did give me a 10-page narrative of his A. This was filled with graphic detail and many things which caused enormous amounts of pain. Unlike with some who have spoken of their experience, he had been so deceptive about it previously that the truth far surpassed my worst imaginings. It was gut-wrenching and agonizing, to say the least.<p>HOWEVER, in the final balance, the act of turning the information over to me, the respect and commitment it demonstrated, more than compensated for the LB quality of the information itself. The net outcome ended up being a huge deposit in my Love Bank rather than a withdrawal. I still have many unanswered questions about the content of that narrative, but it is the avoidance of those unanswered questions that is draining my Love Bank, not any harbored resentment over the content of what he HAS revealed.<p>In fact, most of my resentment stems from the time AFTER D-day when the deception continued, and I suspect NOTHING of that reality has been revealed to me yet. I can hear sermon after sermon about resentment, and it won't change a thing. I know down to my core that continued disrespect will end this R. The more I respect myself, the more unacceptable his disrespect will be. The only way to mitigate past disrespect is to establish a new environment of respect.<p>As Dr. Harley says, infidelity is the worst pain someone can inflict on their spouse, and many of us here have testified to how it is worse even than losing a loved one to death. No amount of minimizing or denying that will lead to recovery. Only full acknowledgement of that by BOTH parties will enable both parties to get through it and any attendant residual resentment enough to build a new R.<p>Another important fact borne out by the quote from Dr. Harley above is that most of us dealing with this lack of disclosure and insight issue are also dealing with the WS not following the steps of recovery that result in "marital experiences that are fulfilling and enjoyable". They go hand in hand.<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

I'm sorry Conqueror. I wasn't posting the "resentment" thing in response to you. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I thought it sort of fit in with the whole "healing" topic here.<p>be right back... <p>ok. Now I've read your comments (sorry - I didn't have time earlier today). <p>I believe we are mostly in agreement on all this. I'm certainly not promoting "denial", and neither is Harley. I think his point is to focus on what will prevent future affairs, and what will promote safety and fulfillment in the present and future. It's so common for the BS to keep digging up the A and throwing it in the WS face. It's easy to feel like, "you need to make up for your mistake, buddy." <arms folded and lip poked out> <p>Harley said, "Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster."<p>I think we are all trying to help Replaced do this. To help her identify what specifically she needs from her H at this point, and how to get it from him. SHe says her H wants her to "get over it". Doesn't she TRULY need to "get over" the A? For her? What she needs his help in "getting over" is the continued behavior - lies, with-holding info, emotional closeness with other women, indifference and silence, etc., in order to achieve marital recovery.<p>Unfortunately, I haven't been successful in marital recovery, so I usually only post regarding personal recovery. That's what I try to do anyway. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

When my H and I reconciled he withheld key information (lied by omission) about the existence of OC #2. He was not being honest and allowing me to decern for myself "IF" I wanted to recover the marriage based on the truth ("2" OCs). He was still cajoling and manipulating our situation.<p>When the truth came out (1+ years after supposed reconciliation), I was devistated all over again, and even moreso since my H lied. But for him, it was the past, he had moved on and couldn't see why it was so devistating for me. He still demonstrated no remorse, no regret, no empathy for me... all he wanted was for me to get over it (because he had) so he wouldn't have to feel guilty.<p>So in my situation "FULL DISCLOSURE" of very significant facts surrounding my decision to continue with our marriage were intentionally omitted and kept from me. <p>Jo<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>