I realize that some of you were questioning me recently about my plans... I thought I'd provide an update based on my talk with Steve and the weekend in general.<p>First of all, I talked to Steve Friday morning. The discussion focused on providing an update, and him asking several questions. The main gist of things was him trying to "take my pulse" - where I'm at in terms of losing my love, so that Plan B can be advanced to, if needed. I talked about how WW and I have actually gotten along fairly well - all except this pesky A thing! In fact, we do meet many of the others' EN's, just not a key important few. The other issue is the health of the A itself - in question.<p>I took the opportunity to question him about the last session where he implied that maybe a "full on" Plan B might be "too much". He admitted that without us having kids, there might be some value in keeping my "name in front of her" a bit - folks with kids do have that advantage, by default - we don't. Then he asked, "well, is she the type to cling, or would she view it as her big opportunity to go?" I.e., the implication being that knowing WW's personality might play a role in determining how my Plan B should look.<p>In thinking about that some more, I realize a couple of things. First, she is the type to cling - she's expressed fears of "losing me", knowing that she'd think about me a lot, etc. - so I do suspect the value of a "full on" Plan B makes sense. The one thing that counters that is her common (but fading) mind-set: finding fault in nearly anything I do. And part of that is twisting things to meet her view of the world - no matter how hard I try to be clear. So by simply up and leaving... there may be a better way. And I know some of you might question me on it... but my gut tells me something based on months of observation, and years of knowledge. That something is that I can stand up - yet again - and force my "crisis", face my crucible (a la Dobson / Schnarch).<p>My thinking is this... WW has become VERY comfortable at home. In fact, her "wall" may be cracking at bit - that's what IC/MC told me last time I saw her. My Plan A efforts have taken away virtually all reasons for WW to be angry with me... I told that to Steve and he said, "Absolutely! That's exactly why it's so valuable - it leaves them with nothing to argue with anymore, so what else is there to do but start dealing with things." And our time together lately has been pretty good... Saturday was WW's 30th birthday. I gave her a few presents, including a set of idea cards for what she might want to do... She picked us going to a spa about an hour away to get a mud bath - a first for both of us! She also alluded to a function going on in the town where her and OM work - I was thinking she might be trying to make up an excuse to spend time there, but when I booked our bath, she was happy enough to be spending the time with me... And we had a really nice time... The drive was peaceful... last time we drove up that way was about 3 months ago, and all she wanted to do was R talk - wasn't pleasant. This time, there was very little tension - except for some minor flirtation! After the spa, we went and had supper at our favorite Italian place, had an incredible meal, even more incredible dessert, and even though WW had a bit too much wine by her own admission, it was in good nature, and we had a laugh over it (and more flirting).<p>The main thing I see today is that WW's A may be ill, but she's not prepared yet to commit to our M. She is a bright woman, and I know she's not the type to "trade down" for anything. She's seen the light of reality, especially now that I've talked to OM, as many of you know. I think he's let her down a lot. She's talked about how "romance is dead," etc. - has said she doesn't trust him even.<p>I know that if I up and left right now, I would be perceived as the ultimate "bad guy" - needlessly so, given what reality says. Reality says I do love her, I still do believe we can repair this, but that I also have reached my "critical mass" - the point at which I can self-confront and break us out of this gridlock - one way or another. And to do that, given our current state, I can see an effort to go "elephant hunting" - i.e., one final intervention step prior to Plan B (separation). I talked this through, arriving at this idea with Steve, and he said basically, "sure, just be prepared to clean up the mess!" Yes, there are risks. But the risks as I see them are no different than simply "disappearing". In fact, I know my WW. I know she'd see that as true and pure abandonment - i.e., I'd be cast in the worst possible light, for once again being "emotionally unavailable". That's been one of her main complaints about the M - and in a way, I've done nothing to counter that for a long, long time. I've been afraid to speak up - because it would only be used as a stick to hit me with. But I also feel like I've gained some very good skills to handle these difficult situations - I look at my talk with OM as something that did demonstrate a lot of personal courage - and it went extremely well. I think I've become very good at avoiding LB'ing, even in a dynamic, shifting conversation. Worst comes to worst, I know how to end a conversation too!<p>So my plan is to do something like I did with OM - a well planned, well scripted confrontation, not much unlike that described in "Love Must Be Tough," or even examples from "Passionate Marriage." The main gist would be to not LB - but to also change the dance we've been locked in now for months. One example of what I could say: "I realize now that I can only see three options for us: you move out, I move out, or we work on our marriage, together, as the team we are and could be. I prefer the last, but if you want to pursue some other option, I have to let you know that my options become reduced." I.e. no ultimatum, no threats - I'm simply exercising my right to control my destiny. There might also be value in painting a bit of the picture of what my leaving might imply - not as a threat, but from the perspective of MY reality (i.e., no, you can't continue to control me - of course, not said like that!!). And once again, I'd be demonstrating bravery - I'm prepared to lose - last time I did that (talking to OM), yes, she got angry, but she also gained a measure of respect for me (by her own admission!) - and things got better!<p>In fact, if I could predict these things, I could foresee her reacting like those who turn their course simply with such an intervention. I base that on her fading A, fading fantasy, and some small signs of personal awareness that have been coming out. She still has a long way to go, but there IS promise. Steve was very surprised to hear a few things WW has said lately. Why not then just continue as-is, indefintely? Because she doesn't have any compelling reason to change, because I've made it SO easy by avoiding R talk, that our issues are still sitting there - that pesky elephant. There's still many questions, and that "lack of commitment" that MUST be addressed. And if she IS coming back to reality, I need to know that - I need to collect more information before I rush off into a Plan (B) that might be the end of my M. (I know some of you would argue that it's necessary and might be a beginning - and that's very true - but recall the Plan B guidelines... be prepared to accept it as the END.)<p>What I'm looking at is NOT R talk - it's very directed, very surgical, and very serious. It may lead to Plan B... but I'm very willing to go there also. Such is my state: acceptance and prepared to move on - but I will give it one last chance with Plan B. And if she breaks down with my talking to her, I won't "give in" and believe everything will be perfect - she still has to come up with a recovery plan that we both can agree on - POJA.<p>So at this point, I have some preparation work to do, prior to my safari. Much as before I talked to OM, I thought about things carefully, scripting things in my mind. I'd like to read Schnarch some more, and re-listen to Dobson again. As I said, my effort is aimed at allowing myself to be vulnerable and emotionally open - more than ever. I see enough of a shift in her attitude over time - from being totally unreceptive to me, even 2 months ago, to being much more willing to LISTEN to me. So the timing appears to be good for this. I am, after all, giving her what she's wished for - for me to be emotionally available. That's what I'm aiming for - letting her know exactly where I stand - with boundaries and all.<p>Anyhow, that's my update!<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: J.R. ]</p>

dear jr- i wish i had your resolve and wisdom when i went elephant hunting. i think you have the right idea. you know your partner and marriage better than anyone. sometimes modifying works. and plan b is still an option anyway.<p>your words for her i think are right on-unlike my sh** or get off the pot. mine did however get his attention. he has made a change. i am hopeful again!<p>good luck and if you need the elephant gun, let me know!

Sounds like an EXCELLENT plan JR. At this point the A is no longer such a sweet deal, and things at home are worth taking a second (or third or fourth) serious look at. My guess is she will be shocked and taken off guard...which will send her back into fog talk and panic for a bit...but give her a little time to digest it and she might make a good decision. There's still a good chance she isn't ready to work on the marriage...but by explaining how you feel and letting her know you are still interested in working on the marriage...she might actually utilize a seperation in a good way...to get her head together. Instead of the alternative if she felt abandoned...to run to the OM or to someone else. It's possible she herself has many thoughts and things she's been wanting to talk about...maybe this will be a good opportunity for the door to open to a nice long PRODUCTIVE talk. But, again...give it all time to sink in.<p>Any idea when you plan to orchestrate this talk?? I would think that timing would be important.

JR....please describe your confrontation with the OM? I've been considering this route.

nikko, hey, I've followed your elephant story... I'd like to believe I could take it down in a single shot, but more likely, it'll try to get up a few times! Gotta be persistent!<p>H4F, I'll e-mail you at some point here in the next few days... great to bounce ideas off ya. I'm thinking about possibly the weekend after next - we have a joint MC session on this Saturday - I'd like to use that to take a preliminary pulse on things.<p>maximus, here's the "short form"... In talking to IC/MC and Steve Harley, both professionals kind of suggested it to me... didn't TELL me to do it (obviously they can't - not their jobs). But especially Steve - he was pretty convinced, based on the picture I painted for him, that WW had constructed a very complete "dual life" that really relied on her keeping those lives separate. In fact, since OM is foreign and one of her EN is "adventure", much of her A is truly based on fantasy. I was also able to reason that OM has been very much "kept in the dark" by her - and that in reality, he's probably not some evil character, but a very, very, very, very, very naive kid, basically.<p>I hummed and hawed about doing this for a long time. I wanted to give WW every chance in the world to turn it around on her own. And I knew she could react very angrily - might push her to move out, etc. But I'd gotten to a point where I was ready to accept any consequence. So I did some research on where OM lives (with the help of redhat), and one day went to talk to him (March 13 actually).<p>My talk with him was very calm and controlled. I had several points I wanted to make, including: 1. I love WW, 2. I'm concerned for WW's mental health, regardless, 3. I suggested he look to her ACTIONS instead of words (i.e. that she has been saying to him that she wants a divorce, but hasn't made any effort to even move out!), 4. WW and I still do things together, such as go to counseling, etc. - I had some more stuff to say once things got going - he remained very silent, but did have the occasional "she never told me that!"<p>He was willing to keep the conversation just between us - I wasn't buying that. I told WW about it the next morning. She did pretty much freak out - looked like she would move out based on it. But given some time, she calmed down and has actually shown indications that the A has now entered a new phase. This could be because the fantasy aspect has been stifled a lot, and now when he sees her or she sees him, my face is there - my act will always stand between them.<p>Now... doing this isn't something to take lightly. Steve made it clear that he wouldn't suggest this to everyone... there are certain properties that make it reasonable. Not the least of which was my attitude towards OM - I even patted his arm as I left - I felt like a father, gently letting his son know that he's being a major jerk. I'd very much suggest you talk to someone like a Steve before talking to OM - mainly to validate that it might be appropriate. It certainly does stir the pot in an environment where things might be stagnant - which is where I was. And it needs to be choreographed - don't underestimate the planning - and courage! - needed to pull it off in an effective way. It was a leap of faith for me that may or may not save my M - but for me - it was critical and will play a role in my healing.<p>Even to this day, WW talks about my doing that as "3-13" (kind of like 9-11)... I.e., a major thing. She also describes it as "her worst nightmare come true". So there's all the proof I need that it was essential for me to do.<p>I'd be glad to answer any questions...

When I went and talked to "my" OM, guess who I found there? So I went ahead and said my speech to both of them. It was basically along the lines of: "You've got to realize that it will hurt her and our kids more than I can say if she leaves us for you. If you really care for her, you'll do what she does not have the strength to do right now - end it. End it because you love her, and you'll be saving her life." He didn't say anything, but W seemed to appreciate that I was fighting for her.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Baffled:
<strong>When I went and talked to "my" OM, guess who I found there? So I went ahead and said my speech to both of them. It was basically along the lines of: "You've got to realize that it will hurt her and our kids more than I can say if she leaves us for you. If you really care for her, you'll do what she does not have the strength to do right now - end it. End it because you love her, and you'll be saving her life." He didn't say anything, but W seemed to appreciate that I was fighting for her.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Excellent speech baffled. <p>Hopefully, if there is a shred of decency in OM, he will take your words seriously and let his conscience dictate the right course of action i.e. ending his R with your W.<p>And likewise to you J.R.<p>Joe<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>