Please bare with me. I have been having some difficulty as of late and don't know what to do.<p>Things have been going well for the most part in our recovery. We have learned to really talk and enjoy each other. Or at least I thought so. Recently, my H told me that I just don't "do it" for him like I used to. He also said that he used to just want to work on making sure an A never happens again but now he has moved to a point where he thinks he deserves better and he thinks about us not being together quite a lot. He says he feels resentment toward me. He says that he "did some things wrong but never anything bad enough to deserve this." However, it wasn't so long ago (a week or so) that he was telling me that he loves me very much and he wants to work through all of this.<p>How do I feel? Well, I feel like crap for having an A and putting him through all of this in the first place. However, what is done is done. I cannot change that. I just want to give my H his wife back and make sure she stays there for the rest of her life. <p>I beat myself up a lot. I can tell you that if he ever does find a way to forgive me, I am not sure I will be able to forgive myself. I feel like damaged goods. I am tainted, weak, worthless, unwanted, and unloveable. That is how I feel about myself. Just for the record, my H has agreed with me on the tainted and weak.<p>Now here is the ironic part. Low self-esteem is the major reason for being in the mess in the first place. I chose to borrow self-esteem from someone else instead of working on myself. I am not making that mistake any longer. However, when one feels as I do about ones-self, it is hard to work on the self-esteem. <p>I don't know what to do at this point. I am feeling desperate. I made the biggest mistake of my life and hurt the one that I truly love. I have been in counceling, and plan Aing my butt off but don't seem to be making much headway. What am I doing wrong? How do you find forgiveness of yourself and of others?<p>Thanks for "listening" to me rant and wollow.<p>Regretting

Hi Regretting,<p>How long ago was D-D? What you wrote relates to what my H tells me. He had the A. "He made the biggest mistake in his life and hurt me so much."<p>Has you H been getting prof.help? Has your H been in MB? <p>These "ups" and "downs" are very familiar to me.
We have been in real great recovery and yet I am now at a point I need professional help to really get over my "hurt" feelings. <p>Due to many "hurting experiences" in my past I am sure I will have to deal with alot more other than the A. The A just topped it all. <p>Of what you wrote, I really don't see anything wrong with what you are doing. <p>Do you have the possibility to go on a vacation with your H??? This really helped us. <p>I'm sorry that I really cannot help you just wanted to share my thoughts.
hugs
BB

Regretting,<p>You said you were in counseling. Are you still? I really think at the place you and your H seem to be is that a good Marriage Counselor could really help you both.<p>It appears that you are both dwelling on the past and all the neagtives and I think you really need someone to lead you a little toward looking at the future. <p>You are right--what's done is done. Now you are where the real hard work takes place. You both need to be up to it and dwelling on past mistakes, beyond learning to avoid them again, is not really going to help, IMHO.<p>Try to find a third party to counsel you and help you both thru this.<p>Good luck <p>E

I think this is part of the "process". Reading all of Tutter's updates and such it seems like these rollercoaster of emotions continue until there's enough "good stuff" to feel safe and secure again.<p>He's being open and honest with you...it's not a pretty thing to be on the other end of, but it is progress! Keep assuring him that you love him and want to make him happy and feeling loved again...and back that up with action.<p>And just keep working on forgiveness in yourself. It's hard, I know...but you can do it!! Let's put the past in perspective. You WERE weak...you aren't now. Now you are learning new skills and trying to gain self confidence that will give you total control over your emotions in the future! And you AREN'T tainted. That's a descriptor for a tuna sandwich that's been under the bed for a week...not a person (unless you ate the tuna sandwich that's been under the bed a week [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] )

Regretting,<p>Two things come to mind.<p>First it sounds like you guys are pretty new to recovery? I'm sorry I am not familiar with your story. Your H's change of heart seems pretty typical of how I felt early on. Your H is on an emotional roller coaster like nothing else! The ups and downs were SO overwhelming. He could just be on one of the downs.<p>Even at the point where we are now (15 months into recovery) I still wonder about some of what your husband states/thinks. But the rawness and depth of despair are finally gone. I can now say with complete confidence (the roller coaster has turned into a kiddie ride for me at this point) that my feelings are not going to control me. I love Jane, and forgive her, and I am committed to her and our marriage.<p>Second, you can only change yourself. No matter how hard you try, only your H can change himself and make decisions for himself. So, you need to work on you! That does not mean that you don't "Plan-A" your H. In fact, that is really a change you make to/for yourself. When you change your own priorities and say, "I will love my H and put him first", you are making a change to yourself that changes how you treat/relate to your H. This will in all likelihood have an affect on him. All of your choices can and often do affect those around us. Making wise and loving choices can make the world around us a better place!<p>Make the changes for you, understanding that by setting your own priorities correctly, you will become more of the kind of person that your H will want to be with.<p>Don't forget 1 thing, and I'm not coming down on you at all. You made a decision (yes, it is one you regret!). Now your H has to make a decision. You cannot make it for him. He has to decide whether or not he wants to continue the marriage. He may decide not to and you have to be prepared for that. But whatever he decides (and I and others I'm sure are hoping that he'll choose to stay!!!) you will be ok. If you use this horrible circumstance to learn and grow, you will can grow to become a better and wiser person.

blondeblossom
D-day was 11/13/02. My H and I have both been in counceling on and off since late November, 2001. This has been both individual and couple. The problem is that we always seem to go to see him when things are going well so he doesn't see all the problems as they are happening. This has been a source of frustration for me. <p>And my H is the one who found this board in the first place. He now says that he doesn't come here much any more. I, however, check it everyday. And we actually did go on a vacation of sorts. We went to one of the MB weekend seminars in Florida. We went a couple of days early so we had time to play. We really had a good time although parts of it were rough.<p>Elad
Yes, we are still dwelling on the past. We both have said time and again that we should not. That what is done is done. But it seems that we cannot let go of it. I am not sure that we will ever be able to let go of it. Whenever things are going well, something occurs to bring it all back to the forefront of our minds and we end up in a down turn. It just seems like such a vicious cycle. And one I have no idea how to break.<p>We are still seeing a councelor on occassion. I have been doing some individual counceling but have not been in about a month. My H has not been in about 2 months. We do have another appointment this week. I think this one might be a hard one since it seems that we will finally be going when things aren't so good.<p>hope4future
Thanks for making me smile. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] No I didn't eat the tuna sandwich but I feel as if I did. My H feels as if I did also. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Yes, I was weak. Very weak. Even with all of the self-esteem problems I have had in the past, I didn't view myself as weak. I do now. My H views me as this also. It doesn't matter that I have proven myself to have at least some strenth by staying here and fighting to "fix" things. This is a sticking point for me. But when I am down on myself (which seems to be quite often these days), I tend to agree with him. If I was weak once, why wouldn't I be weak again. My answer to that is that I learn from my mistakes. But that doesn't seem to matter.<p>Thanks everyone for your comments. I really appreciate you taking the time to give me your thoughts. I have really been feeling quite alone and isolated. (Now there is a little self pity. Lord, I hate when I do that [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] ) I am trying to work on myself and this esteem issue. Sometimes it is just so very hard to see the good in ones-self.<p>Regretting

BillUphill
Thanks for your reply. It is good to know that some people out there really do recover from this kind of thing.<p>I know I cannot make any decisions for him and he does have a tough one. It upsets him when I tell him that where we go from here is up to him. I say this because I know that no matter how much I want him to stay, I cannot make him do so.<p>You know, maybe I was naive but I didn't realize just how much we effect people until recently. This is something that has really been brought home to me during the last couple of months. I know in the future I will always be more aware of how my actions effect those around me. I have learned that much at the very least.<p>Regretting

Regretting,<p>You're welcome. Please-please-please remember that the two of you are still pretty early in the whole process. The feelings that you both are having are VERY normal.<p>Not that it is easy, but if you do a search for my posts beginning in April or May of 2001, I was putting out a monthly update with as open a heart as I could. These ran through September I think. My feelings, emotions, questions and confusion are there for the world to see. Maybe it would help you to understand where I was (and where I perceived that Jane was) at that point, and maybe it would help your H to see that his feelings and confusion right now don't mean defeat and that others have been where he is and have made it!

Your husband feels violated. I've heard several betrayed wives compare another woman with their husband as a personal violation, much like a rape. One of the women had been raped before...she said the A was worse because it involved someone she cared about and trusted. Maybe it could be compared to being raped by a "friend". It's a deep and serious pain. It will take him time and a lot of LOVE to get past that. And he can...but he needs YOU to help him.<p>For you to help him you have to help you. Are you taking, or have you considered taking, any antidepressants? What are you doing to improve your self-esteem/self-confidence issues? What are you doing to prove your strength...as much to YOURSELF as to your H? You ARE strong...you have the ability to be weak...we all do...but you are going to CHOOSE strength, yes? Don't give up...on him OR on yourself. Start doing something empowering or "strengthening" today, NOW!!!

Regretting,<p>Reading this post I sort of had an off-the-wall idea. Have you ever set down and listed the things your have learned from your experience. I was triggered by your realization that you affect people around you. You have power Regretting so why not use it, but realizing the "learning" experience this has been.<p>Ultimately, those that recover seem to have one thing in common. While they would never want to go through their spouse having an affair again or having an affair again themselves, they all seem to focus on all that they learned because of what they went through. Communications is usually pretty high on the list, that their spouse loves them is another.<p>Do you see what I mean? Ultimately, the main function of the past is to learn from it. If you and/or your H dwell on the negatives, then the odds are that you won't acheive what is possible.<p>So my off the wall idea is to sit down and start listing the things you learned, the things you don't ever want to forget and will use in the future. Perhaps you can show it to your H, and it will begin to show him that there is a plus side to this.<p>If he leaves you, and marries another woman she may not have learned what you have learned and if that is true, then the risk is great that a similar experience will occur, especially if he hasn't learned about his failings and made positive strides.<p>Regretting, your H has to heal at his own time. He is just about dead on what appears to be common around here, the 6 month slump. I have been reading here for a long time and it seems in recovering marriages the 6 month point is very rough. Some have speculated that it is because the BS knows the marriage can and probably will be saved, so they allow much of what they have surpressed to bubble to the surface. The doubts, the pain, etc. Bill can probably confirm or deny this statement for you.<p>So my suggestion is to learn and take some time to recall what you have indeed learned.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Regretting,<p>Here is a piece of an update around 5 months.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Today is our 15th anniversary. What a ride. At 5 years, she was pregnant with our first child. At 10, we had just had our 2nd. At 15 we are trying to survive her affair. I face today with very mixed emmotions. In some ways I look back and wonder if it is worth the effort. In the same breath, I think that we have made it through so much together and have so much history that we have to make it. I do admit to feeling pretty melancholy though. I just don't feel like celebrating.<p>5 months ago Saturday, she threw our marriage on the floor and spit and trampled on it. Even the 4 or 5 months before that, she only stayed because of money and our kids. She had him as a "boyfriend" and in some ways flaunted him to my face. <p>I guess this anniversary just doesn't mean as much since in reality our marriage ended at the end of January. In a way our new anniversary is Feb 1. This is the day she recomitted to me and we started over. I'm having a hard time getting excited about June 28.<p> <hr></blockquote><p>Here is a piece of an update at the 6 month mark for me.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I won't kid you, there have been some tough times. I hit low points occasionally and almost totally lose touch with my emotions. It is almost like Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. I actually have exhibited a lot of the symptoms. Most times when I hit these, I start packing my bags. It's not so much a desire to leave her as a desire to get away from the horrible feelings and memories. These times are very hard on her, and this has caused her quite a bit of concern that someday I might just decide that she is not worth the effort, or might just not be able to regain control and actually leave. I don't blame her, and I am SO sorry for them. Still haven't quite figured out what to do about them, but they are down to every 3 or 4 weeks now, and I may be getting a handle on them.<p>I still worry sometimes about where she will be a year from now. We are definitely in a honeymoon phase, and I know it won't last forever. Don't get me wrong, our relationship will never get back to the point it was before, but it also won't be a honeymoon forever. Will she be satisfied with the mundane when some of the lustre is gone? I think so... I worry that the shame and guilt might overwhelm her sometimes. I know that she has not dealt with her own feelings as much as she should (my opinion). Will she decide that it is just too hard one day? That as much as she wants to, she cannot deal with the guilt anymore and decide to "run"? I don't think so... Will she wake up some morning and decide that she never really resolved her MLC issues and that she does want to try being on her own? I don't think so... I guess this is all a part of regaining trust.
<hr></blockquote><p>There was another post that I can't find that had more in it about the "6 month" wall. It was real and I think JustLearning's analysis of it was pretty accurate in my case. A friend once told me that "as the result of this, you are going to have good days and bad ones. Be happy when you are having a good day and remember it. Be accepting of the bad days knowing they will come, but looking ahead to more of those good days you've had too.<p>One day at a time...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Regretting:
<strong> He says that he "did some things wrong but never anything bad enough to deserve this." </strong><hr></blockquote><p>The best thing to do with statements like this is to agree with them, which I assume you did.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>How do I feel? Well, I feel like crap for having an A and putting him through all of this in the first place. However, what is done is done. I cannot change that. I just want to give my H his wife back and make sure she stays there for the rest of her life. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>The problem is that you cannot give him his wife back. The woman he loved and who loved him would never have done this to him. He has lost her forever. He is grieving for her. I can lay close to my H and smell him or touch him, and that is all it will take for me to cry with yearning for the man I once knew and will never see again.<p>It reminds me of people who keep an item of clothing or the pillow their loved one slept on to feel close to them when they're gone, whether through death or estrangement. In this case, we have the whole body, but it is a different person in that body now. To me, it is somewhat like learning to love my H's killer. Your H may share some of these feelings. Better to face that head on IMO and perhaps verbalize it yourself so he knows you understand the depth of his loss.<p>The fact that stuff comes up and brings all of it back into both of your faces is completely normal. It is almost like a slap in the face or slug in the stomach, the physical reaction that accompanies it. I will be feeling somewhat "normal" again, and all of a sudden it will reach out and grab me like a cold fist squeezing the life out of my heart: "He really did this awful thing to me. It really happened!" and I will be in shock and agony again.<p>But beating yourself up over what you did won't do either of you any good, as I'm sure you know. The more you hold yourself accountable and are transparent about that, the less need he will have to hold you accountable. You do need to tap into your soul and recognize how valuable you are. The M may be tainted, but you are not. When you confess and repent, God will wash you clean. God has the ability to wash it away as if it never happened. Unfortunately, we do not have that capability. We can and should forgive, but it is very difficult to forget.<p>As Dave Carder says in Torn Asunder, you were in the driver's seat during the A, and now you are in the passenger seat. It's not an easy place to be. You really do need to let go of a reflected sense of self and find and hold onto that core of yourself that was made in the image of God and is of inestimable value.<p>[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Conqueror
Harsh words but I know you are right. I know I can never give him the woman he married back. Even if I didn't figure this out on my own, my H has made sure to point this out on several occassions. No, I am not that person any more. In some ways, I think I am a better person but he will not see that. And he is not the man I married either. I could see that before the A ever happened. Another point of frustration. <p>As for being in the passenger seat, I have known that since D-day. The problem with that is that my H won't admit that. I have told him on several occassions that what happens now is up to him. He doesn't like it when I say that. It upsets him.<p>hope4future
Antidepressants...yes, have considered it but H doesn't think we should medicate the problem. What else am I doing? I am learning to speak my mind and give my opinion. I am learning to not be so hasty to pick out flaws in appearance. As for showing my strength...I'm still here in this marriage. I could have cut out the first time he asked me to leave. I didn't and I haven't. <p>BillUphill
Thanks for the back posts. I plan to look some of the others up when I get a bit of time. The two you posted sound very familar. I think my H has been there. I just don't know at this point if he is willing to stay in this much longer. It looks to me like he is about to give up. He says the only reason I want to work this out is that I now see my life crumbling before my eyes. I believe this is untrue. I wanted to work out our problems before he ever found out about anything. But that doesn't really matter.<p>Just Learning
I like your idea. Doesn't seem so off the wall to me. I think a list of what I have learned will definately help me. It might also help my H to see things I have accomplished in the last few months. That is if I choose to show the list to him. I might even suggest he do one also. Because, frankly, I am not sure what exactly he has learned. Except maybe that his wife wasn't who he thought she was.<p>To all, please excuse some of the snide comments about my H and the things he has said. I have moved to a point once again where I am so frustrated. As of late, all he has done is focus on the negative things. I have heard very few if any positives from him lately. <p>He feels how he feels. I know I cannot change that. I made a terrible mistake. I know I cannot change that. The only thing I can change is myself. I have made a start at that and now my H can barely stand to be in the same room with me sometimes. Guess I should have thought of that earlier. Barely says I love you anymore either. I think time is running short.<p>Thanks for your comments and letting me vent<p>Regretting

Hi,<p>I'm a junior member and I'm still learning, but I felt I had to reply to you. My H and I are in early recovery as well.<p>I sense that you would like your H to just get over this and move on in fixing the marriage. I am wondering if you really "get it". <p>Telling your H that whatever happens now is up to him, isn't right. I can see why this would upset him. I would never say that to my H nor he to me. It's both of us working on this, and giving eachother what we each need. To put it all on one person is not right. You may not have meant that, but that's how it sounds.<p>You say you wanted to work out your problems before the A began. But you didn't, did you. Your H sees that, and he's probably wondering what you'll do next time there's problems. This is something I think about all the time. My H didn't come to me (mind you I made it almost impossible for him to) and I wonder what he'll do next time. I know I won't make the same mistakes.<p>You say that your H hasn't learned anything but that you're not the person he married. That's not true. He learned dishonesty, betrayal, lies, deceit etc. Sorry, I had to say it, and these things take a long time to get over.<p>Instead of looking at everything you've accomplished, try looking at what's still missing.<p>As for excusing the snide comments about your H, sorry can't do that. This is how you're feeling. You may not be saying them to your H, but he senses it.<p>He's only focusing on the negatives - sounds like that's what you're doing too. <p>You end by saying you think time is running short. On your H's part or yours. If it's yours it doesn't seem like you truly understand what your H is going through. Otherwise, you'd give him all the time he needed, if you're really committed to your M. If it's your H's, he probably senses you don't really "get it".<p>These are just my opinions, but I felt them strong enough, I had to reply. I'm sorry if what I'm saying gets you. But I think we needed to hear the other side, if only for your H's comfort.<p>H&S

Yikes...got some major issues going on, eh?<p>H does not want to medicate the problem??? If depression is an issue, then that IS A PROBLEM. You can't work on the marital or personal issues if you don't have a clear mind. Take the &$%# antidepressant...and when you're in a better place drop them. I don't even take aspirin for a headache unless I'm about dying in pain...so I argued against antidepressants for a long time too. Wouldn't do it again. Picked me up right out of the pit. I only used them for about 5 months...but it was enough to get me back on track.<p>Regretting...you're giving up. Is that fair? He needs you to fight WITH him for the marriage. If you aren't willing to do that then don't blame him for it failing. He's hurting...he's frustrated...he's trying to figure out who the NEW YOU even is. Do YOU know? <p>I totally beleive your marriage COULD be everything you both need and want. You've got to decide to do the work...otherwise let each other go and get on with your lives. It's one thing to SAY "i'm tryyyyying" it's another thing to actually DO IT. Really TRYING means pulling your head out and giving ACTION to your words.<p>Take the antidepressants...work on boosting YOUR OWN self esteem and creating your own happiness...shower H in love. Bet that would change the direction of your marriage.

Hurt & Sad<p>I feel I must clarify some things. What I meant by it is up to my H is that I have made the decision to stay in this marriage. I do not want a divorce. I want to permanently stay and work to make things better than ever between us. He has not made this decision. I mean the permanent decision. And I understand why. I understand his hurt and anger. <p>Also the comment about the things he has learned. I do understand that he has learned all those negative things. I know it will take quite some time to get over, if ever. What I was talking about is some things that were negative that we can now turn to positives. Let me give an example....I do believe that I tried to talk to him about some of the things that were bothering me before the A. However, I didn't do a good job of it. I didn't say exactly what I meant to say to make him understand. I didn't walk into the room, shut the damn computer off and say hey I have this problem. I have learned from that. I now think through what I need to say and go tell him "this is how I feel" or "I need to discuss this". In my opinion, that is turning a negative into a positive. Sometimes I wonder if he has learned these types of things. I know he has some. But I wonder just how deeply he is going into correcting things within himself.<p>As for focusing on the negatives, yes, I do seem to be doing that. I know that is something I need to stop doing. It is hard to do when you spend so much time beating yourself up. And I do berate myself. If anyone has any suggestions as to how to stop doing this, I am willing to try just about anything. I have tried many things and they have helped but obviously I have not totally irradicated the problem.<p>No need to apologize for raising my hackles. Sometimes that is what needs to be done for someone to get the point. I will admit that on the first read through I was a bit miffed. But I realize you make good points. And sometimes it is easier to hear the things your spouse has been saying coming from other people. Thanks.<p>hope4future
Yes, you could definately say there are some issues. My H and I both have past things that need to be dealt with. I am just beginning to realize this. My H is just like you in that he has be to practically dying to take an asprin. He doesn't want to take the things. I think it would do us both some good. Maybe I should just go on them myself. Something to consider. I think I will talk about this is counceling session tomorrow.<p>I guess I do sound like I am giving up. That is really not the case. I just need a little booster sometimes. I bit of a kick in the pants from you all to get me back on track when I am in self pity mode. Giving up is not what I intend to do. I intend to keep trying for as long as it takes. This M and my H are things I really want. I know it has taken a very awful thing on my part to make me realize that. But I am not giving up on me, my H or our marriage. <p>Thanks for the kick in the pants! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Regretting

Regretting,<p>Why don't you take your last paragraph and simply tell your H exactly what you just told us. You know the direct frontal assualt. I messed up, I am sorry, and will be d---- if I am going to let my mistake end this marriage. Look him in the eye and simply dare him to quit because you won't. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Seriously, Regretting sometimes the message of intent needs to be delivered load and clear. It puts him on notice that you are folding, and it proclaims your commentment to him and yourself.<p>Something to think about. He may need you to fight him for this marriage to show that you aren't doing this because the alternative is not "convenient" for you. Do you see what I mean?<p>Hang in there and God Bless,<p>JL

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Regretting:
<strong>In some ways, I think I am a better person but he will not see that.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>He may see it with time.<p>Sorry, Regretting, for coming off harsh--wasn't my intent. I was trying to offer encouragement while acknowledging the features of a very painful reality.<p>I'm not sure how you're "presenting your case" to your H, but I would encourage you to convey an attitude of hopefulness without any hint of defeatism.<p>Make it clear to him that you want to rebuild the M to be better than it ever has been and that you know that it will be in the context of the loss of all the previous hopes and dreams. Let him know that your hope is that the two of you will discover new hopes and dreams and build a M where both of you are cared for and protected while acknowledging that you accept his right to choose whether to do that with you or not.<p>Think of moving a couch--be in position to pick up your end, patiently waiting for him to pick up his end with a hopeful expression on your face showing your confidence in him that he can do it.<p>You definitely need to stop berating yourself. It is okay have humility and face what you have done to someone who didn't deserve it, but don't go beyond that. You need to change the tapes in your head. A very helpful book for that is Feeling Good by David Burns (hopefully I got that title and author correct). His approach is cognitive therapy. His premise is that thoughts create feelings, so fixing your thoughts will fix your feelings. It really helps you rebuild your self image.<p>[ April 24, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their thoughts. Sometimes all it takes is someone else perspective. <p>JustLearning and Conquer
I have taken both of your advice and told my H that I am not quitting. I believe that I made it very clear that I am not giving up. <p>Also, Conquer, thanks for the book suggestion. That sounds like something I could definately use. I will stop by the library and check it out. I have found a couple of those books very helpful that people around here have suggested. <p>I am starting to come out of my slump. Even though my H has not started to come out of his yet. You have all helped me get back on track. Again, thanks to everyone. <p>Regretting