Hi jack - regarding your counselor's suggestion to just not talk about the A any more:<p>(disclaimer - I have no direct experience and I suggest you ask this question on the Recovery board)<p>It seems to me that this could be a good goal - once you two get everything out on the table and process it. NOT doing so runs the risk of harboring unfinished business which could eat one or both of you from the inside. Radical honesty is touted by many who achieve recovery as absolutely necessary. Anything left "lying" (pun intended) just festers.<p>I hope you get other opinions.<p>WAT

Why did you make that pledge? To make your W more comfortable? SHOULDN'T the details of her A provoke those kinds of feelings? What about you and your feelings? I'm assuming that you previously brought up the sexual subject because you had a need to know. You no longer have that need because it causes her to be uncomfortable? If you are suppressing what is a legitimate need to know in a martyring fashion, your Taker may have to come to your rescue.<p>If you truly have no need to know the details of her R with the OM, then maybe that will work for you. I am living the lack of processing of the A that WAT mentioned, and Dr. Harley told me we are working on the next A, not rebuilding a M. My H doesn't like to talk about it (what WS does?), but giving lip service to having done "the worst thing" will not cut it the way both of us standing there looking at the same detailed picture at the same time would.<p>Sure, it will "free her up" from having to face what she did, take full responsibility for what she did, develop empathy for your pain caused by what she did, etc. And I don't see how illusion between the two of you can help her be closer to you. Has this counselor ever read Torn Asunder? or any of the other myriad of literature regarding recovery from infidelity?<p>They are pretty much universal in their agreement on the BS's need to process the A and whatever details are necessary to do that effectively as well as the WS's need to facilitate and witness this process in order to develop empathy and gain the insight necessary to prevent recurrence.<p>[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

I'm glad to hear that you and your W had a great time.<p>Your W seems to be seeing the real OM by his behavior towards his child. And thus the fantasy of the OM starts to collapse, doesn't it make you sad? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Keep us posted.<p>Joe

Jack,<p>Have a really nice time in SF. the idea about the pics is a really good one - thanks!<p>
This thread has raised some deep issues -
There are some questions running around in my head about talking about the A vs not. I may have interpreted this wrong, but in rereading SSA, John wants to talk about his resentments and Dr H suggests no focusing on those now, that as the LB's stop and the EN's are met, that the resentments fade away.<p>Conquerer, your posts have spoke to my heart. I too am living proof that not processing A's has come back to haunt me. The part where if we as a couple are not processing that we are really headed for another A or Dv. Thanks for sharing.<p> [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

Back from trip, thank you all for your continued encouragement. Much good progress to report and some responses to your questions: I am still "laying off" as much as I can regarding talking about the A with ww. I agree I have a right to know but what do I need ? and if it makes ww squirm is it worth it? I know when it happened, how long it lasted, when it ended and that it included the full range of activities shall we say. WW has given considerable insight into how she felt then and how she feels now so I am inclined to to accept it as "enough." Most importantly is that I have noticed that that when I step out she steps in. Yesterday she saw the Om in his new girlfriend's bmw and said, ok you can go punch him now, she feels used and abused, and asks how can she ever get her self respect back? So I think she makes more progress if I give her space. On top of all this has been some pretty moon eyed romance between the two of us, super lovemaking, tenderness, etc. Dinner, travel, dancing, laughing, have left www with a how could I what was I thinking point of view. WW says sometimes she feels like a common thief and just doesn't understand how she could do such a terrible thing. This puts me in the there there don't beat yourself up mode, good people do bad stuff, millions have gone before you etc, we are bigger than this, and what is important is our future now. I am feeling pretty good. I remember the first week raeding all the books and seeing that oft stated point that it will never be the same but it can be better, and I am completely buying into it now. Regarding Retrovaille, one of the techniques taught there is the exchange of written answers to questions. We continue to do this, it facilitates communication better particularly when one spouse is the better debater. Plus sometime sI write my answers at work, she writes hers at home and we meet later. I really believe that the Retorvaille weekend which we started 6 weeks after dday was a central feature of our recovery. Just having in on the schedule gave us some much needed breathing room like we were saying OK lets wait and see how that program works out before making any decisions. Then once it started we had an anchor. I wish I had found this board earlier but I also think it is a great component especially for blowing off steam that might be hurtful or counterproductive and for the cumulative wisdom and support of you folks. Its good to be back.<p>Jack 218

Jack,<p>(((((HUGS))))).......I can so relate to what you said. My "WH".......has no idea (because of his own selfishness and his continued "A"), of what he has had all along if only he'd take the darn blinders off!!!!!<p>My "WH" picked me up and put me back together after I finally ended a 13 year "emotionally and physically abusive" marriage. He healed my heart, made me fall harder than h**l for him, trust him and believe in 4-ever. Now.....he has betrayed all that he himself built.....3 years ago and all along but I didn't find out till last month.....<p>If we don't make it.......there is no way I can trust again........go through this pain again.....<p>For 10 years (in spite of his faults) I thought my husband next to walked on water.......I too would have died for him and still would....for years because of our "shared profession" at the time....that could have happened.......Even through all this pain, his "A"......I die in a heartbeat for him and right now he doesn't give a darn about me......."ironic"?<p>I Share your pain Jack.......<p>GODSPEED

Jack, your story is similar to mine. You feel as if you devoted your life to someone you love extremely much and that all of it suddenly became
an illusion. You feel your whole marriage is fake.
Our recovery between me and my WW has not been going to well, she doesn't fully understand the pain I'm in. The other day she said to me: I want to see you happy again and no matter how the 2 of us end up, I'll always love you, and will cherish all the good times we had.
My feelings were quite the opposite: I feel like all my love for her has been taken for granted, that it was all in vain, no matter what i did it apparently wasn't good enough. It leaves a totally bitter taste in my mouth, a deadness inside tha doesn't seem to go away and she's not able or doesn't want to help me out of there.
I sure want to know how you're gonna cope with all this cause I don't find any way out anymore.
But anyway, hang in there, good things must come to those who deserve it

BetrayedAgain,
It must be especially disappointing when the betrayer is your hero or rescuer, I felt the same way about my w. It has only been a month for you so your emotions are still very raw right now. Try to hang on and focus on what bound you together in the first place. Hope I can help you.<p>Jack218

BurlCouch,<p>Coping is the hard part but you didn't say how long it has been for you. One thing my ww told me that helped was that if I died tomorrow she wouldn't consider her life in vain or wasted and neither would I if she died. It was what it was. She reminded me when I showed her my post that the A wasn't planned, it wasn't thought through, I wasn't traded for the OM and neither was our relationship, and of course no one thought it would be discovered. This stuff sounds stupid to us BS's but after all is said and done it is probably true. She accepts full resposnsibilty,in fact I have to boost her up a bit. What is wierd is the nature of the situation where all your life you are used to feeling bad with your wife for the same reasons, i.e the car got wrecked, the house burned down, the kid broke his arm, etc, and now you are both feeling bad but for entirely different reasons. She feels all the pain of being a betrayer and you feel all the pain of being the betrayed. Her guilt is probably just as great as your pain. I really liked the Retrovaile program if you can find one. Hang tough!<p>Jack218

Well it has been 4 months since D-day but the hurt doesn't seem to go away. I probably found this board to late to understand what she as a WS
was and still is experiencing.
I've seen and heard the justifying,laughing, ignoring, guilt over the A towards me and her family but somehow i'm still shocked to see her busy most of the day with her own feelings, while i have no doubt that for me personally, my healing process is very dependant on HER way of dealing and accepting my feelings. But in some strange way she's living in a cocoon of her own selfishness, at least that's how i experience it.
Don't have a clue how to get me and her out of it
Any advice is welcomed,thanks

please also read my Questions for all BS's and WS's in the In recovery section and HELP HELP HELP

Jack,<p>My "WH", yes, was/is my hero. That is why I specifically chose the song "Wind Beneath My Wings" for our wedding song........<p>We seperated 3 years ago last month and have lived apart every since. "OW" has been in the picture whole time. About 1 1/2 years ago, things started and kept getting better between hubby and I. Gound out 2 weeks ago that she has been there all along..........<p>stomped again............<p>Cut out of his life........again........

BetrayedAgain,
Where are you getting support? This must be the hardest thing to deal with.
Jack<p>BurlCouch,
Kind of the same question, but also what have you read? The book lists here are pretty good, I don't think it is realistic to expect your ww to heal you, by now four months into it you ought to have read the literature, instituted some kind of plan for recovery, and be working toward something rather than just sitting around stewing. I drank and chain smoked (I'm not even a smoker) for a month but making a "project" out of it seemed to help. Kind of like the way you'd respond to cancer or something, you didn't want it but by god you're going to beat it. And the good news is you definitely can, and if the marriage fails ultimately you'll be better off for having done your best. So its win win, you either save the marriage or you are on better terms withs its end than you would have been. So attack!
Jack218