I have not posted very much, but I have been reading these boards for months and have found them comforting and often very helpful. Now I am hoping that someone may have a little advice for me. To be brief, I discovered in late August, '01 that my H of 14 years had been having an A for almost a year. It was a very intense "love affair" by that point. As I plan A'ed, my H spent months bouncing back and forth between our marriage and the OW. I will spare you the details, but it was horrible. <p> About a month ago he came to me again, and asked for yet another chance. I told him that he had basically used up almost every good feeling I had ever felt for him and I didn't want to squander what little was left on yet another "faux" reconciliation. I explained that if I was to give him another chance he would have to commit to our marriage LONG TERM and really work on it. He has taken some steps in the right direction since then. He ended things with OW, moved into a new apt far from her and changed his cell phone. I do not beleive tht there has been any contact between them for almost a month. The problem is that I still do not think tht he has really committed to our marriage or taken much responsibility for improving things. I was such a good plan A'er that he seems to think that I should be all over him pledging undying committment while he continues to secretly weigh his options. He told me last night that he was still "mourning his loss", and thought he might need another week or two to "get himself together". I cannot tell you how angry this made me. I had some sympathy for his withdraw the first couple of times he left OW, but I am fresh out of it by now.<p> When is enough enough? At what popint does the WS need to step up to the plate and share some of the resposibility for rebuilding the marriage that they have destroyed? I am thinking of telling H that the time has come to make good on his promise to commit to the marriage for the long haul, or get out of my life once and for all. I don't want to force him into a reconciliation that he can't make good on (I could never do that to my children), but I am at the end of my rope. <p> Should I try and wait it out another week or two, or should I tell him to finally start acting like an adult?<p>(me)BS, 39
WS, 40
married 14 yrs, 3 children 3, 5, 7

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>When is enough enough? At what popint does the WS need to step up to the plate and share some of the resposibility for rebuilding the marriage that they have destroyed?<hr></blockquote><p>Now would be a good time... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Have you suggested that your husband start to do counseling with either Steve or Jenn Harley? If he would start on that (and then you could be brought in a bit later), it seems like you could both come to agreement on a Plan to save your marriage.<p>And that's what you need right now. A plan that has measurable goals and expectations. And a coach to help the two of you meet them.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>At what popint does the WS need to step up to the plate and share some of the resposibility for rebuilding the marriage that they have destroyed? I am thinking of telling H that the time has come to make good on his promise to commit to the marriage for the long haul, or get out of my life once and for all. I don't want to force him into a reconciliation that he can't make good on (I could never do that to my children), but I am at the end of my rope. <hr></blockquote><p>if there is one thing i have learned, it is that you can't make WS do anything. as long as they are in the fog they hear, see, and feel nothing regarding the m. <p>i too am at the end of my rope, but never give up hope and faith. concentrate on you and the kids. i know that is hard when you are feeling hurt and angry. do not make demands or lb in anyway. again, this is extremely difficult at times. come and post as often as you need. IT HELPS get the hurt and frustration out. have fun with your kids and work on you right now. in doing so your WH will take note. look for the things you are responsible for that hurt your marriage and work on changing those. hope this helps.<p>keep your faith and hope [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>hopenden

K and Hopenden,<p> Thank you for your replies. K I think that you are right, what H and I need is a PLAN. We have been in counseling since this all began and H as been seeing a pyschiatrist several times a week by himself. Our first MC got so frustrated that she told me to get a divorce. We then started seeing the partner of H's Dr. (also a psychiatrist) and I started seeing this man privately as well. The new MC has been facinated by my H's behavior and keeps saying that in all his 40 years he has never seen anyone behave this way -- constantly changing his mind. Actually, since I began reading these boards, my H does not seem to be the only one with this problem. <p> As wise as the MC seems at times, he doesn't appear to have any concrete plans for how to get over this hump. I wonder if "coaching" with Marriage Builders might be able to do that? I'm not sure H would go for that, but I will ask him.<p> I picked H up from the hospital a few hours ago (he was there for a colonoscopy - yuck!) and we had lunch. He called after I dropped him off to say thank you and ask why I seemed so down. Despite my resolve to make it through this weekendand talk with H at MC's or at least with a clearer head, I broke down. I told him I was spent and needed him to make good on his promise to commit to our marriage. He seemed completely stunned and confused! He said he thought that I was the one who wanted to take it slow and that he couldn't "become madly in love" with me again at the drop of a hat. Perhaps this is the rub. I don't think it is necessary to be in love to commit; it is a choice not a feeling. My H asked me to give him specific requests so he could understand where I am coming from. I guess I will try and come up with those.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>He said he thought that I was the one who wanted to take it slow and that he couldn't "become madly in love" with me again at the drop of a hat. Perhaps this is the rub. I don't think it is necessary to be in love to commit; it is a choice not a feeling. My H asked me to give him specific requests so he could understand where I am coming from. I guess I will try and come up with those. <hr></blockquote><p>You're both right (or wrong... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ). Caring love is absolutely a choice that you can make. Romantic love is a feeling (a very important one) that will sustain a marriage and make it terrific. Your husband is being very honest with you when he says that he can't fall in love with you at a drop of a hat. He needs to get through withdrawal, and you need to avoid lovebusting (#1!) and meet his emotional needs (#2) to create this feeling of romantic love for him.<p>The thing I love about the MB counseling (or coaching) is that Steve and Jenn are experts at getting the two of you to learn these skills, and make a plan to rebuild the marriage together. If you're both willing to do the counseling, you'll have homework and exercises to do. The counseling is NOT traditional Marriage Counseling---you actually spend very little time doing "joint" sessions. What you do is spend time giving Steve feedback on how your spouse did, and getting feedback and help from Steve in regards to your side of the plan (and vice versa for your spouse).<p>It sounds as though your husband would probably benefit from this type of counseling---he wants to have a checklist of things that you need from him (and guys are usually 'list-oriented'). I've found marriage counselors can be "insightful" as to what's causing the problem, but then be clueless about dealing with it. Steve's not that way---you'll have specific steps to take to successfully "fall in love".

K,<p> I think that you are absolutely right. In fact I made an appointment with Steve for Thursday morning. I brought up the idea with my H briefly yesterday, and he seemed game. We are having dinner alone tonight and I am going to specifically ask him to start the counseling with MB. I think that it will be hugely helpful to have some objective goals and criteria. I know that for myself, I need to see our marriage move forward, or let go. We've been in no man's land for too long! Wish me luck!!

It's so hard to wait, but for me...time was the only thing that worked. My H had an ea/pa with my former best friend. We separated for 9 mos, I could NOT stand watching him mope around about her. She also lived next door, was his employee, etc. It was easily the worst thing I ever lived thru. They both lied and said it was ea only, and I just found out the truth after 6 YEARS of lies. <p>Trying to talk to him when he was in this infatuation was impossible. My counselor said it's like trying to talk to someone under anesthetic, you won't get anywhere. If he truly has no contact, the fog will begin to lift. I know how hard it is to sit around and wait, I hated it. But it did make me more independent and I formed a really good network of supportive friends whom I still have. It was the one and only time I'd ever lived alone so it was very hard at first. But I got better at it and almost resented him when he first came back!<p>I hope things will work out for you. Hang in there....

Maggierose, you say something very interesting:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> If he truly has no contact, the fog will begin to lift. <hr></blockquote><p>Is this really when the fog begins to lift? What experience have other BS/WS had with this? Could this be a "sign" that contact has ended?

It appears through alot of conversations I have had as well as a number of people that have posted on here, a key to lifting the fog for your spouse, and yourself is to accept that your life can and will go on without your spouse. At present I am completely committed to making things work with my spouse, but at the same time, a large amount of the pain has come and gone for me. I have let my spouse know that I love her and am committed to make the relationship work, but if things continue the way they are presently going that's it, I will file for divorce, I will seek custody of the children, I will keep the house, I will keep my job, and I will get on with my life. I was not this direct in telling her this, but got the point across very well. She appears to be responding somewhat, since she is back int eh city I am presently living in, and seems to be working very hard to get back into the house, but has not committed to counselling yet. I really believe in order to work through the fact your spouse has had an affair you must be able to know that your life will go on without them, and if they are not committed to make things work, then time will pass, and so will the relationship.

I couldn't agree with you more. In my case I worked REALLY hard at Plan A for about 5 months. My family, friends and even the MC thought I was insane. It didn't end the A but it did show my H that I recognized my contributions to our marital problems and that I could and would correct them. It also made ME feel less guilty and better about myself. Nevertheless, it wasn't until I was able to truely live with the idea of divorce that my H made much progress. I think the idea of loosing me and our family were even more painful for him because of the Plan A.
The OW hung on for dear life, but I think that now after a month of no contact, my husband has convinced me that he is serious about ending things with her. In my case, however, the "lifting of the fog" has NOT meant that H is suddenly remorseful, begging to meet my needs, or able to fully understand the he** he put me through. To the contrary, I think his guilt over the A tends to make him blame ME and hark back to things that I did before the A. That's another place where I think Plan A has been and will be helpful. With all honesty and without feeling defensive I can agree issue X has been a problem, but I've changed that behvior and demonstrated it under the worst of conditions.
We have an incredibly long way to go towards healing our marriage. I hope that the MB recovery plans prove to be as on the money as the Plans A and B. My H agreed last night to speak with Steve Harley on Thursday so perhaps things are looking up.